Are American and European muslims more liberal?

[Khairan]

There are some things that make me nervous about the shia beliefs.  (Please correct me if I am wrong).One is that they disregard hadith with Aisha as the narrator.

-This leaves out an enomous amount of information about Islam

They only pray three times a day when the Qur'an repeatedly calls for five.

They believe that the message should have went to Ali and not Muhammad and that Jabreel disobeyed the Command of Allah.

-How can an angel disobey?  It is against their nature.  They have no free will.

Could you resolve any of these issues for me?

First, please don't ask me to defend the tenets of Shiism. As I said, I call myself a shia for historical reasons, not religious ones. As such, you are essentially asking me to defend positions I do not believe. I totally agree with you on the point of Aisha as a narrator, though I am led to wonder why sunni compilations are so scant in their quoting of Ali ibn Abi Talib; from my readings, I have seen Abu Huraira, who was not nearly as close to the Prophet, quoted much more than the Fourth Khalifa. But, that is neither here nor there for the purposes of this discussion.

As for the prayers - Shia do offer five prayers, they just have three prayer TIMES. However, the basis for this is from hadith -- the sunni version says that on the night of the Ascension, the Prophet talked to God and walked away with five prayer times, whereas the Shia version says he walked away with three. That is all.

The issue of Jibreel disobeying: I've never heard that before in my life, nor have I ever heard a shia cleric espouse that belief, so I can't respond. I can only assume that it is a radical view not held by most shias.

[Dan]

Bismillah

As salam alaikum

I am not asking you to defend the tenets of Shiaism. I just had questions that I thought you could help answer. Jazak Allah. I know that Abu Huraira was specifically picked out by the Prophet to remember his sunnah and tell others. After being given this job, Abu Huraira came to the Prophet complaining that he was having a difficult time remembering all of the sunnah. The Prophet laid Abu Huraira's cloak upon the ground and cupped his hands and then made a dropping motion over the cloak as if he was dumping something on it. He then gathered up the cloak and gave it back to Abu Huraira. He then states that after that time he never forgot any of the sunnah that he observed from the Prophet. (If I have made a mistake, please someone correct me so misinformation does not spread.)

I am also curious as to how there could be two sahih versions of a hadith that tell of two different things? This is confusing.

I am also confused by you saying that you are shia for historical reasons. Does that mean your family is shia or that you like their version of history or I don't know what?

Jazak Allah for responding

As salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

[Khairan]

Just because a hadith is "sahih" doesn't mean it is undeniably true. This is why I contend that there is still room for debate and discussion regarding what "Islam" is. Just look at the Sunni schools of law - they may agree on what all sahih ahadith are (I'm not certain if they do or don't), but they don't all implement the same rules and they don't all interpret the traditions in the same ways.

As for the prayer issue, sunni and shia muslims rely on very different bodies of tradition to establish law and belief systems (as you've already pointed out). Jafar asSadiq and Ali ibn Abi Talib are very frequently involved in the chain of transmission, and the hadith regarding prayer is ultimately said to come through Ali. According to it, there are five prayers and three prayer times.

I call myself a "historical Shia" because I believe parts of the Shia version of history more than the sunni accounts. I do think that the Prophet appointed Ali as his rightful successor and as such I consider myself a Shiat-e-Ali for political reasons. Along with this, I revere Amir ulMumineen for his wisdom and I commemorate Hussein's sacrifice at Karbala. But, I do not believe that Ali was endowed with divine wisdom or any such thing, nor do I feel there is any evidence to support the existence of a line of Imams who are the rightful rulers of the ummah. However, Shias, who do believe these things, have entire bodies of what they consider authentic traditions that support these (and other) views. So of course, the question then becomes how do you decide whose traditions are the correct ones? I don't know. I don't think anyone really can, but I've made my best guess based on the history I have learned. I've already revised my ideas several times as I learned more, and may well do so again. What I can say is that because of these problems regarding history and interpretation, I am firmly against deciding on a single world view for the rest of my life and calling it -- to the exclusion of all else -- Islam.

cheers

[Muslimah]

BismillahAs salam alaikum

I know that Abu Huraira was specifically picked out by the Prophet to remember his sunnah and tell others.  After being given this job, Abu Huraira came to the Prophet complaining that he was having a difficult time remembering all of the sunnah.  The Prophet laid Abu Huraira's cloak upon the ground and cupped his hands and then made a dropping motion over the cloak as if he was dumping something on it.  He then gathered up the cloak and gave it back to Abu Huraira.  He then states that after that time he never forgot any of the sunnah that he observed from the Prophet

As salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

Mash a Allah Dan jazakum Allah khairan for posting this

[Dan]

Bismillah

As salam alaikum

Alhamdulillah brother that is your choice. But I do not see Islam as fluid as you do. We must remember that the Jews are divided into 71 sects, the Christians into 72, and the muslims are divided into 73. Only one of those will go to heaven and that is the one who follows the qur'an and sunnah of the Prophet. For me this warning cannot be taken lightly. This means that I am in a constant search to solidify and strengthen my aqeedah as much as possible.

There are many opinions that I hold about Islam that I do not share on this board. The reason is that I do not have the knowledge and sound evidence to back it up. I am not worried about what others will think. I am worried about my accountibility before Allah. What if I spread my opinion and it turns out to be false? I am responsible for that misinformation on the Day of Judgement. It is a major sin.

By all means share whatever you feel compelled to share. I am only worried for you as my brother in Islam that is all. I am not trying to silence you. I just want to fulfill what I feel is my duty to my brother and to Allah by offering some advise. I appreciate the information that you have shared with me. Jazak Allah.

May Allah Forgive me if I have uttered anything wrong. May my brothers and sisters forgive me if I have offended or wronged them. May Allah Guide us all. Astaghfirullah. Alhamdulillah.

As salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

[Khairan]

2:62 - "Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

Dan, this verse makes it impossible for me to believe that there is only a single path to God. If He opens Paradise to "any who believe," then surely not just one of the myriad sects of Islam is the "right" one. Indeed, I suspect that all are at least somewhat mistaken in certain beliefs, while right in others.

I'll tell you another reason why I am more comfortable in believing Islam to be fluid: it leaves me with the belief that only God truly knows, and that it is my duty to simply be a decent human being, to do as little harm to others as I can, and to do my best to understand and follow the Straight Way. There are far too many groups -- Muslim and non-Muslim -- who are totally confident that they know exactly what God wants them to do for me to be content believing any of them.

salaam

[Dan]

Bismillah

As salam alaikum

Under what context was that verse revealed and when? Do you know about the abrogation of verses in the Qur'an? You do know that under a verse in the Qur'an that drinking is halal as long as one does not come to prayer drunk? This verse is later abrogated by the verse that forbids intoxicants completely. So do you believe that alcohol is still permissible?

The final verse revealed (5:4) states in it: "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My Favor upon you, and have chosen for you ISLAM as your religion." The ONLY religion that Allah accepts is Islam. He has chosen it as the religion of mankind. Islam is perfect which means there are no cracks or contradictions in it. One sect claiming one thing and another sect claiming a contradiction means that one of these sects is wrong, ie not following Islam. It is our DUTY to find that correct Path. If there is confusion in our minds, it is due to our lack of knowledge not from the lacking or fluidity of Islam. Once again, I must emphatically state that much of your opinions center around the lack of Islamic education that you have. You are speaking without knowledge and this should frighten you as much as it frightens me to speak without knowledge. To attribute something to Allah incorrectly is a grave sin. It is what the Arabs did before Islam and what the other religions do now. I sincerely seek refuge in Allah from doing such a horrible act.

Instead of trying to prove an opinion that you already have with Qur'an and hadith, please open your mind to what Allah actually wants you to do. Make du'a for guidance. I still make this du'a. It is very important. Insha'Allah, I am not offending you because that is not my purpose. I am sincerely worried about you as my brother in Islam. Please forgive my shortcomings. May Allah Forgive me and Guide me and all of the ummah.

As salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

[Khairan]

Instead of trying to prove an opinion that you already have with Qur'an and hadith, please open your mind to what Allah actually wants you to do.

Well, these aren't opinions I "already had," they are ones I developed from my reading. You are of course correct that I do not have nearly the knowledge base that I could regarding matters Islamic, but you are very mistaken if you think that all the matters on which we disagree are due to my own ignorance (and no worries - I don't take offence at your words at all; I appreciate the dialogue). Many of my ideas come from commentators, scholars, and teachers who ARE more well-read than I am, and who are very fluent in Arabic. So it is simply untrue that knowing Arabic and having enough knowledge will lead every Muslim to agree on what the correct version of Islam is.

You do know that under a verse in the Qur'an that drinking is halal as long as one does not come to prayer drunk?

I do not accept the idea that the Qur'an abrogates itself -- I would only do so if the Qur'an itself says that earlier verses are superceded by later verses, which I have never seen. If there is such a verse, do direct me to it.Actually, I'm interested to know where in the Qur'an it is written that drinking is permissible. Can you cite a specific verse? Thanks.

:learn: :learn:

[naseeha]

BismillahAs salam alaikum

Under what context was that verse revealed and when?  Do you know about the abrogation of verses in the Qur'an?  You do know that under a verse in the Qur'an that drinking is halal as long as one does not come to prayer drunk?  This verse is later abrogated by the verse that forbids intoxicants completely.  So do you believe that alcohol is still permissible?  

This confuses me dan.. where did you get this information

but i have to agree with khairan's latter point until you produce proper proof of what you said here... If no proof then you should take it back

[Muslimah]

as salam alykom

Dan allow me to pop in:

Allah, in order to forbade alcohl drinking took a gradual approach. The Creator Took in consideration that people at that time were so much into alcoh which would make it difficult to give it up immediately.

The first ruling was revealed regarding alcohl was here:

"They ask you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling.[4] Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit." (Quran 2:219).

When this was revealed a group of people stopped drinking while others didnt, they said let us just take the beneift therein.

then was followed by:

"O you who believe! Approach not As-Salât (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of what you utter" (Quran 4:43).

when a companion leaded people for prayer and faulted while reciting surat Kaferoun, so Allah revealed this Ayah.

Still a group stopped and another didnt, they said let us avoid prayer timings.

Until Allah revealed the following Ayah

"O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), and gambling, and Al-Ansâb[1], and Al-Azlâm (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaitan’s (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful.[2] * 91. Shaitân (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allâh and from As-Salât (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?" (Quran 5:90-91)