Abraham, Moses and Jesus: Three Beloved Prophets of Islam

[Teh_Curious]

that would be difficault as he was already crucified and taken upto heaven, when the holy spirit desended to the disciples to give them to strenght and courage of their convictions to preach the good news of our lord Jesus Christ.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Father (Love), Son (Grace), Holy Spirit (Truth).

Peace be upon you too FHC :)

Thanks :) I just noticed that Christians say "with" & Muslims say "upon".

Of course am aware of this example, but you should realize that if water is present in 3 states (i.e solid, liquid, gas) as ice, water, and vapour, in all the three states, the constituents, the component of water is the same, <b>H2O</b>. That’s very important.

I couldn't have said it better myself, Wael. That's exactly what is meant by God (water) - Father (ice), Son (liquid), Spirit (steam).


This is the third time I post these statements. I'd use different ones but it'll take too long to type them up - LOL! You'll notice that 3/4 of them were formed pre-Mohammad (PBUH). Keep in mind that Mohammad (PBUH) was commanded by Allah to test the truthfulness of his own message against the contents of the previous divine revelations given to Jews & Christians (Sura 10 Ayat 94).


<i>The three things are existence, knowledge & will. For I can say that I am, I know & I will. I am a being which knows & wills. I know both that I am & that I will. I will both to be & to know. In these three - being, knowledge & will - there is one inseparable life. One life. One mind. One essence. Therefore, although they are distinct from one another, the distinction does not separate them. This must be plain to anyone who has the ability to understand it. In fact, he need not look beyond himself. Let him examine himself closely, take stock, & tell me what he finds. For none of us can easily conceive whether God is a Trinity because all these three -immutable being, immutable knowledge & immutable will - are together in him. Whether all three are together in each person of the Trinity, so that each is threefold or whether both these suppositions are true & in some wonderful way in which the simple & the multiple are one, though God is Infinite He is yet an end to Himself & in Himself, so that the Trinity is in Itself, & is known to Itself, & suffices to Itself, the Supreme Being, One alone immutably, in the vastness of its Unity. This is a mystery that none can explain, & which of us would presume to assert that he can?</i>


(St Augustine 354-430 AD)


Here the mystery deepens. Three Distinct Persons & only One God. How is this possible? Reason understands that there is no contradiction, because it is a Trinity of Persons & a Unity of Divine Nature. But the difficulty remains. Each of the Persons is the same God. How can They be really distinct? The reply which our reason stammers is based on the concept of relation. The Three Divine Persons are distinguished among Themselves solely by the relations which They have with One Another. Precisely by the relation of the Father to the Son; of the Son to the Father; of the Father & the Son to the Spirit; & of the Spirit to the Father & the Son. The Council of Florence in 1442 could therefore state, "These Three Persons are One God, because the Three are One Substance, One Essence, One Nature, One Divinity, One Immensity, One Eternity... in God everything is one & the same, where there is no opposition of relation".


(Pope John Paul II 1985)


Christians acknowledge one God - Unbegotten, Eternal, Invisible, incapable of being acted upon, Incomprehensible, Unbounded - who is known only by understanding & reason. By whom all things through His Word have been produced & said in order & are kept in existence. We recognize also the Son of God. Let no one think it laughable that God should have a Son, for we do not conceive of either God the Father or God the Son as the poets do, who in their myth-making represent the gods as no better than men. The Son of God is the Word of the Father, in thought & in actuality. By Him & through Him all things were made, the Father & the Son being One. Since the Son is in the Father & the Father is in the Son by the Unity & Power of the Spirit, the Mind & Word of the Father is the Son of God. If in your exceedingly great wisdom it occurs to you to enquire what is meant by the Son, I will tell you briefly. He is the first begotten of the Father, not as having being produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in Himself, God being eternal Mind & eternally Rational. Who then would not be astonished to hear men speak of God the Father & of God the Son & of the Holy Spirit.


(St Justin Martyr 150AD)


God - Father Son Holy Spirit - have one nature or substance; one power & authority. There is a consubstantial Trinity; one deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons.


There is only one God the Father from whom all these come. There is one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things are. There is one Holy Spirit in whom all things come to be.


(2nd Council of Constantinople 553AD)

<b>Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never spoke about ‘trinity’- that father, son and Holy Ghost were one</b>

Wael, the Bride of Christ (Church) would never betray her Spouse. We don't invent teachings that go against Scripture. I honestly don't like using the Bible as a weapon or tool to prove anything but here are a few verses that the Church draws on to understand the mystery of the Most Holy & Blessed Trinity.


St Matthew 16:16; 28:18-20.


St Mark 1:1; 1:11.


St Luke 1:55; 1:68.


St John 14:26; 15:26, 10:25-39.


Acts of the Apostles 9:20.


1 Corinthians 2:11.


Galatians 1:15-16; 4:4-5; 4:6.

You misunderstood the verse as usual; the Qur’an is asking you to believe in God as ONE and to stop from referring to Him as Trinity. You rejected this message, its fine, but it is very clear and there is no paradox here.

I give up! I can't keep repeating myself, ya zalme!

Jesus Christ pbuh was given the ability to heal the deaf and dumb and to raise the dead by God’s leave, <b>not on his own</b>, and he said it many times in your Bible that I CAN OF MY OWN SELF DO NOTHING.

Hmmm... humour me... which verse are you taking out of context now :lol:

<b>What is funny about that by the way ?</b>

Nothing! I was being sarcastic :P

Any reference from the Qur’an?


There are no contradictions between the Hadiths and the Qur’an, unless you provide the verse that you are talking about, I cannot give you any answer. Prophet Muhammad pbuh performed many miracles but we do not normally speak about them unless somebody asks (like CC), the ultimate miracle of Prophet Muhammad pbuh that we always mention and advise people to ponder over its message is the Holy Qur’an.

I believe you. Please provide a further explanation though. Here are the verses... I've excluded the texts because I don't own a good translation of the Koran... Sura 17:90-93, Sura 17:59, Sura 13:7, Sura 6:124, Sura 6:37, Sura 2:118-119.

Correct, so you should not go around and talk about Jesus’ miracles as well and make a silly comparison between him and other Prophets (am referring to whoever trying to do this). All of these miracles were the work of God to support His Prophets while conveying His message to their people.

You know for a fact that I don't compete or compare. If anything, I'm trying to reconcile the two faiths. Not having much luck :banghead:

Is this person a Christian? :)

Yes... by the Grace of God. He lived in Morocco for a few years & was majorly exposed to Islam. He doesn't have anything against Muslims, he just can't make sense of the religion.

Because the message of Jesus pbuh was interpolated and fabricated by the hands of many men, these are not my words by the way, almost every honest Christian scholar would say that the Bible is the production of men, and that’s why Muhammad pbuh was sent to guide us to the right path.

Mohammad (PBUH) never taught the doctrine of Tarif. According to Mohammad (PBUH) we are to obey the Torah & Gospel. Do you believe the Qur'an or not? The Church has preserved over 5000 different manuscripts of various books contained in the Bible that date as far back as the 1st Century AD, e.g. Chester Beatty Papyri, Bodmer Papyri, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, etc), & believe it or not, they completely match the Bible I use today.


More importantly, Wael, "the Christian faith is not a 'religion of the book'. Christianity is the religion of the 'Word' of God, 'not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living'. If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, 'open our minds to understand the Scriptures" (Catechism 108). I LOVE THIS PARAGRAPH!!!


Thank you for continuing to educate me on Islam.


Barak Allah Fik.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


I was hoping to reply you right now, but I have to go with my wife to the hospital (she had a miscarriage last week)... so hold on insh a Allah I will add my comments later.


Salam for now


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

I have to go with my wife to the hospital (she had a miscarriage last week

My Lord & My God!


Wael, I'm so sorry to hear that. I think I speak on behalf of all on IslamMessage when I say that if you need anything, we're here for you.


I'm sure Muslims have their own way of dealing with miscarriages, but if I may, here are some wise words that'll hopefully put things in perspective & ease your pain...


<i>"The child lives. Instead of the wind he hears the sound of angels singing before God. Instead of the beauty that passes he sees everlasting Beauty—he sees God. He was created and lived a short time so the image of his parents imprinted on his face may stand before God as their personal intercessor. He knows secrets of heaven unknown to men on earth. He laughs with a special joy that only the innocent possess. God creates for His Kingdom and each creature fills a place in that Kingdom that could not be filled by another. He was created for God's joy and his parents’ merits. He has never seen pain or sin. He has never felt hunger or suffering. God breathed a soul into a seed, made it grow and called it forth. The life that was created and lived for so short a time on earth will enjoy so long an eternity in heaven."</i>


Your family's in my prayers.


Be strong & rely on your faith... remember, Allah knows best.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Wael, I'm so sorry to hear that. I think I speak on behalf of all on IslamMessage when I say that if you need anything, we're here for you.

Thanks a lot for your concern, Alhamdulelah we are satisfied of whatever Allah has decreed for us.


Salam


Wael.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


The three things are existence, knowledge & will. For I can say that I am, I know & I will. I am a being which knows & wills. I know both that I am & that I will. I will both to be & to know. In these three - being, knowledge & will - there is one inseparable life. One life. One mind. One essence. Therefore, although they are distinct from one another, the distinction does not separate them. This must be plain to anyone who has the ability to understand it.



One life, one mind one essence!! beautiful, but as soon as the life is gone, the mind and essence will automatically die as well. So are you saying that when Jesus was crucified and died (according to Christians), are you telling me that God the father and the holy spirit are also died? Of course not, then the above example does not apply in anyway to the Trinity that Father , son and holy ghost are one and the same.


This is a mystery that none can explain, & which of us would presume to assert that he can?



(St Augustine 354-430 AD)


no one can explain, means no one really can understand it, and yet you just believe in it without certain knowledge. St Augustine was honest enough to say that and so I will respect what you believe but at least we have reached to the point that Trinity is beyond understanding.


The Council of Florence in 1442 could therefore state, "These Three Persons are One God, because the Three are One Substance, One Essence, One Nature, One Divinity, One Immensity, One Eternity... in God everything is one & the same, where there is no opposition of relation".



(Pope John Paul II 1985)


This will take us into another trap, that if these three persons are one essence, One Nature, and one divinity, then all of them must have died the moment the son was crucified. <b>Or else you cannot call them One nature, one essence and one divinity</b>


Wael, the Bride of Christ (Church) would never betray her Spouse. We don't invent teachings that go against Scripture. I honestly don't like using the Bible as a weapon or tool to prove anything but here are a few verses that the Church draws on to understand the mystery of the Most Holy & Blessed Trinity.



Let's see.


St Matthew 16:16



This verse is talking about Jesus being son of God, <b>NOT THAT FATHER, SON AND HOLY GHOST ARE ONE</b>… A N D this verse <b>was not spoken by Jesus</b>, here is my statement once again.


“Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never spoke about ‘trinity’- that father, son and Holy Ghost were one”



Mathew 28:18-20.



If President G.W Bush has sent his representative to Iran with those words "Go ye therefore, and speak to the Iranians, chastising them in the name of the United States, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union," <b>does this require that these three countries are one country</b>? They may be one in <i>purpose</i> and in their <i>goals </i> but this does in no way require that they are the same physical entity. And what does my statement say??


St Mark 1:1; 1:11.



Ok those 2 verses are speaking about Jesus being the son of God, <b>not only Jesus pbuh who was called son of God in the Bible</b>; there are dozen of other sons of God mentioned in the Bible. Plus, <b>those words were not spoken by Jesus himself</b>, please check my statement carefully.


“Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never spoke about ‘trinity’- that father, son and Holy Ghost were one”



St Luke 1:55;



Not about Trinity being one !!!


Luke 1:68



Again <b>those words were not spoken by Jesus</b>, what really concern me the most is what Jesus pbuh himself said.


St John 14:26



Its about the Holy Spirit that will come after Jesus, never said that both (together with the Father) are one.


John15:26



Same as above…


John10:25-39



The words that jesus speak of the father’s name they bear witness of him being a man of God, his followers are those who follow his words… <b>there is no mention about Father, son and holy ghost being one here. Not at all.</b>


Acts of the Apostles 9:20.



1 Corinthians 2:11.


Galatians 1:15-16; 4:4-5; 4:6.


<b>none of these verses are the words of Jesus pbuh</b>… and so I will repeat my statement one more time.


“Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never spoke about ‘trinity’- that father, son and Holy Ghost were one”



Hmmm... humour me... which verse are you taking out of context now



I guess you know it well. You just quoted this same verse on the other thread of ‘comparison’.... but out of context?!!!!! I don’t think so, its just crystal clear FHC, he can do <b>nothing</b> of his own, and nothing means nothing… I don’t know if in Australia they’ve got any different meaning for this innocent word <b>‘nothing’ </b> :D


I believe you. Please provide a further explanation though. Here are the verses... I've excluded the texts because I don't own a good translation of the Koran... Sura 17:90-93, Sura 17:59, Sura 13:7, Sura 6:124, Sura 6:37, Sura 2:118-119.



Come on, you are a native Arabic speaking person and you don’t own the original text of the Qur’an?


However, you must first understand that the Islamic understanding of the concept of miracles can be best explained through the linguistic meaning of the word. In the Qur'an, the term used to denote a miracle is "ayah". This can be roughly translated into English as "sign", or "a sign given by God to a prophet in order to show his truthfulness and become one aspect or manifestation of his claim."


Therefore, Muslims believe that prophets can perform miracles in the sense that prophets have signs that "prove" their prophethood.


Examples of these abound in the Qur'an. In the story of Abraham, for instance, when Abraham's people try to burn him, God orders the fire to be cool and not to burn him:


[They said, "Burn him and protect your gods, If ye do (anything at all)!" We said, "O Fire! be thou cool, and (a means of) safety for Abraham!"]
(Qur’an 21:68-69)


Although this event can never be explained scientifically, Muslims do believe that this happened and that the Prophet Abraham pbuh came out of the fire safe.


The Qur'an also relates instances of miracles such as the Prophet Moses splitting the sea and saving himself and the Israelites from Pharaoh, the virgin birth of the Prophet Jesus, and the birth of John the Baptist despite the advanced age of his parents.


The Qur'an itself is referred to as the perpetual miracle of the Prophet Muhammad.


<b>However, not every prophet had a miracle. The ones who did, the Qur'an clarifies, did not perform or produce these miracles by themselves. Rather, they were given the miracles by God.</b>


[…it was not (possible) for any messenger to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah…]
(Qur’an 40:78)


In addition to this distinction, the Qur'an points out that not everyone would be attracted to even the more "stunning" miracles. These people would reject the message of the prophet in totality.


The Prophet Muhammad himself was repeatedly asked to perform miracles.


[They say: "We shall not believe in you, until you cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth,"Or (until) you have a garden of date trees and vines, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst, carrying abundant water;"Or you cause the sky to fall in pieces, as you sayest (will happen), against us; or you bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face "Or you have a house adorned with gold, or you mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in your mounting until you send down to us a book that we could read."]
(Al-Israa' 17:90-93)


The answer to this, is as God points out in the Qur'an, for Muhammad, whose miracle was the Qur'an itself, to point out his own reality.


[say: "Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- a messenger?"]
(Al-Israa' 17:93)


This is exactly similar to the claim that was made by the Jews if you remeber when they ask Jesus to perform miracles or to show them ‘a sign’ to prove that he was the Christ? if What did he do? Did he walk on the water or caused them to die then raised them back to life as a proof of his claim? No no, he acted very strongly and said to them “an evil and adulteress generation seeketh after a sign? For there is no sign shall be given into it, except the sign of Jonah…” he pointed out only to this sign to prove to them that he was the Christ. Will that make us understand that he did not perform miracles?


But in case you are looking for miracles performed by Prophet Muhammad pbuh from the Qur’an, you may refer to the follwing verses:


<b>1. Living miracle: The Holy Qur'an (2:23) (17:88) (52:34)</b>


2. Human miracle: he changed people's hearts (5:83)


3. Heavenly miracle: Isra' and Mi'raj (17:1) (53:8-18)


4. Historic miracle: Hijra; escaped while surrounded (9:40)


5. The miracle of the Battle of Badr: Victory against all odds (3:123-125)


6. The splitting of the moon (54:1-2)


And on and on…


Yes... by the Grace of God. He lived in Morocco for a few years & was majorly exposed to Islam. He doesn't have anything against Muslims, he just can't make sense of the religion.



Now you may inform him that Prophet Muhammad pbuh did perform miracles and some of them are mentioned in the Qur’an.


Mohammad (PBUH) never taught the doctrine of Tarif. According to Mohammad (PBUH) we are to obey the Torah & Gospel. Do you believe the Qur'an or not?



Are you asking me if I believe in the Qur’an or not? did you lost your mind recently hehehe (only kidding) :D


The Prophet never told us to <i>OBEY</i> the Torah and the Gospel, he taught us to believe that there were revelations sent to people before him called the Torah that of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus peace be upon them both.


The Church has preserved over 5000 different manuscripts of various books contained in the Bible that date as far back as the 1st Century AD, e.g. Chester Beatty Papyri, Bodmer Papyri, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, etc), & believe it or not, they completely match the Bible I use today.



No I heard something else more interesting, that the Church (I don’t know which one) is keeping about <b>24,000 ‘original’ manuscripts</b>; but guess what? Christian scholars have said that <b>NO TWO ARE IDENTICAL</b>, so how will you ever know which one is correct? and why those 'original manuscripts' are not available in the market their original language for us to verify whether they are really matching with today's Bible or not? and why Scholar of NT like Bart Ehrman who have studied those original scriptures and discovered that many verses in today's Bible are not to be found in the original manuscripts and so he gave up his faith and become Agnostic???


Salam for now and have a nice day.


Wael

[Muslimah]

Bismillah

Bismillah:


Thanks a lot for your concern, Alhamdulelah we are satisfied of whatever Allah has decreed for us.


Salam


Wael.

Alhamdulelah, dear brother, tell my dearest sister, that Allah Is just Insh a Allah elevating your ranks, then Shall certainly give again.

[Faith Hope Charity]

My Lord & My God!


May the peace of Christ be with you!


I've had a long day... I'm absolutely exhausted, so I'll just make this one real brief :sleep2:


* Jesus Christ, the Son of God incarnate, suffered & died in His human nature only!!! I think I've broken the world record for stating this fact the most number of times on any forum ever!


* The Blessed Trinity is a supernatural truth. No human could've known that there subsists Three Divine Persons in God. Now that God has revealed this mystery to us, through His Son, no one can fully comprehend it to the max, however, humans are able to obtain further knowledge & understanding... hence, "Theology" - the study of God.


* Ouch! You're interpretation of Scripture is hurting me - LOL! It's because of people like us that Christians are divided up into thousands of different denominations. Everybody wants to give meaning to verses rather than take meaning out. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but whenever I come across a passage that doesn't quite seem right, I immediately blame a lack of something on my part & not the Biblical authors/teachings of the Magesterium (which is what St Augustine taught me to do - he never doubted the Church's authority).


* Hahaha! How would you like it if I compared George W. Bush to Mohammad (PBUH)? Don't worry, I'd never do that!


* I can't read the Qur'an in Arabic. I can barely understand it in English - hehe!


* Re: Bible manuscripts - No disrespect to Bat Ehman but he's a former "Born-Again Christian". No disrespect to Protestants, but various sects have their own version of the Bible - tailored to suit their personal needs. The ancient Bibles I mentioned are identical (although they're not all written in the same language), & are openly displayed in the Vatican Library for all to see, touch, read, examine, photograph, etc. One thing you must remember is that Catholics aren't "Evangelical Bible Christians"; Catholics evangelize the word of God (Bible), however, we honour Sacred Tradition & Sacred Scripture equally. "Where Peter is there is the Church, and where the Church is, there is everlasting life" (I can't remember which Saint said that - shame on me)!


God bless you.