God has called me

[Anyabwile]

Thank you Muslimah, i would like to politely decline your public invitation to discuss further, as to be honest, i now feel no need to. If we are all at the stage where we are happy and settled, theres no need for discussion. Especially here. So i would not like to if that is ok, i hope i can end my breif return here with this post. But i would like to wish you all well and the best in what you do. As for those on here who had the same concerns as me, thats for them to come to you Muslimah, not for me to name or refer to them.


I just wish to leave wishing everyone the best and knowing i am open to PM or email anytime. But i do not wish to discuss Islam any further at this forum, because i still consider you friends, even if you all may not feel the same way about me. Thank you, i will continue to pop back and read with the same interest i always had when reading these forums, just from a different perspective.


Thanks all.


Anya.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


You are welcome Anya, I am not sure u even read my posts.


<b>I didnt invite u to talk to me, neither did I invite any one of those u keep referring to to discuss with me.</b>


May be u didnt read the post. I said if u want there are others who are willing to talk to u. Otherwise, you are not forced to talk to anyone. But as you are not forced to talk to no one. <b>There will be no need for you to keep hinting about major gaps in Islam, on this board, as long as you no longer wish to discuss them here. Sobhan Allah, unless you mean something else that we are unable to understand.</b>


And I mean no offense.


As u wished, your post was split and moved here with the opening so everybody would know where u r standing now.


BTW Anay we have no problem with that. If u noticed, a pinned thread for Joshua, on this board, contains info for any member who wished to know about Islam is still pinned while the starter is even gone.

[Anyabwile]

I wish you and everyone else the best [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] Take care.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Salam Anya


I also wish you the best. And if you wish to stay here, you are welcome.


Just want to add, since you mentioned being in contact with some of us by pm on the board, that I don't want to leave the impression, unspoken for, that I may have doubts about my faith. Since I am one of them you mention. And that is what your words can be interpreted like.


Alhamdulillah I feel secure and safe in my faith, and feel guided by Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.


I have for about half a year now been a 'member' of an Swedish anti-Islamic website, I think there is only one of a kind there and have been confronted with a lot of rubbish about Islam and it's teachings and it's Prophet saws and what have been quoted from different anti websites on the net. Of course also about me as a person. I feel MY faith has been tested well enough and even more, during this time. Alhamdulillah. But I felt it was time to stop, to go on, that I have done my 'part', since the words of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala came to my mind and alhamdulillah a sister did push me to the decision, reminded me of them, may Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala reward her greatly.


‘’Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell’’
4:140


So I never, so far, alhamdulillah doubted of my faith. For a reasoning person it is natural to PONDER about different things, when they ar surfaced. That is also what Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala often tells us in the Qur'an - to ponder, to think. That is very essential to do that, one cannot 'just believe' or take things for granted, without pondering/understanding them. Or even worse, one cannot shut the ears and eyes when seeing or hearing something that does not make sense, one has the obligation to look into it. Faith and knowledge comes from search and curiosity, based on genuine will.


Salam

[Dan]

Bismillah


As Salam alaikum


I was not replying to Anyabwile because I did not want to be percieved as attacking him or his new found happiness. Insha'Allah everything that he believes was lost due to Islam will be returned to him (his family or anything else). Since it appears that he has given his farewell, I think a lesson can be drawn from this situation.


I am posting to point out the fallacy that many converts fall into. I will be honest and include myself. Upon coming to Islam, it is so amazing that we jump headlong into "knowledge." We read books and believe that we can learn on our own. I feel silly that I believed that this would be sucessful. Did I go to my math class and just teach myself it without a teacher? Has anyone ever tried doing that? Not a small feat. Even if there is some sucess there are nuances that I would overlook due to my untrained eye. These nuances are not that big of a problem in the beginning. As time progresses (anyone know about the chaos theory?), these small miscalculations will lead me to great misunderstanding.


It amazes me that people will not understand things like calculus but do not doubt that it works because they see the buildings and bridges that it helps build. Also, they had a basic foundation of math and understand that 2+2=4 and that 2x-6=6 then x must =6. This foundation gives them faith to believe the mathemeticians when they claim that the higher math works. Remember in math class at the beginning of the year? Ever flip to the back to see what was ahead? For me, most of the time it never made much sense. "We're going to be learning this?!?" Yet at the end of the year because of the guidance of our teachers and the foundation laid earlier, we come to understand it. In religion though, man thinks that he should understand everything immediately. If not, then it must be false. We would mock someone who dismissed calculus just because they did not understand it, especially if they had not had anyone to teach them.


Maybe one of the reasons that we converts tend to do this is because all most of us had to do was read the Qur'an and reflect it and creation. Thus we believed in Islam. If the foundation is so easy to understand, then we must believe that the religion as a whole is as easy to understand. As was mentioned by others, they are many schools of thought and study in Islam, each so deep it takes students a life time of studying to even come close to mastering them. That's if they even come close.


The Prophet warned us about trying to take on too much and understand everything about Islam quickly for the very reason that happens to many converts. We get confused and then leave the religion. Fortunately, Allah Guided me to those who could answer my questions. Which leads me to the other problem that some converts will fall into, going to nonmuslims to have Islam explained to them. Of course, the people who do not like Islam are going to encourage these doubts and what appear to be discrepacies. If I had a problem in calculus, I would go to the math teacher not the art teacher or history professor. If I was trying to major in mathematics, these other professors might even encourage me to change my major to their field of study. "If this stuff is so hard, maybe it is not what's right for you. Have you ever considered...?"


The Prophet set up the sunnah of having his companions turn to him in times of confusion. A verse in the Qur'an mentions praying when the white thread becomes apparent from the black one. One sahaba put two threads under his pillow and kept chekcing them for changes all night until dawn. The threads did not change at all. So he left Islam because he did not understand? No. He went to the Prophet for clarification and Muhammad, alayhi salatu wa salam, explained that the verse was talking about the predawn prayer, fajr. The sahaba was thus satisfied and his doubts were eliminated. If this man would have went to his Quraishie friends and been like, "The Qur'an said these threads would change and they didn't." What do you think their responce would have been. "See... Muhammad does not know what he's talking about. We told you it was just jibberish." The nonbelievers would have affirmed the man's doubts.


Islam has a very strong foundation with which it can reach lofty heights of scholarship. All of us on this message board must remember that there is not one scholar or even serious student of knowledge upon this message board. All the answers are <b>not </b>with us. If there are doubts, go to those who will have knowledge. Still does not make sense? Continue your search for the teacher who will answer you in a way in which you mind will be able to grasp what is troubling you. We live in a time where knowledge is difficult to find. It is a fitnah with which we must be patient.


A few months or years of independent study does not result in extensive knowledge of this deen. Guaranteed. To expect that during this time of unguided searching that one will surpass the scholars of our time and times past is faulty, to say the least. One cannot even begin to be a serious student of Islam until Arabic is learned. The Qur'an states that it was revealed in Arabic so we may better understand. Even scholars from nonarabic speaking nations understand and stress the importance of learning Arabic in order to engage Islam on any kind of deeper level of scholarship.


As converts we must be careful of arrogance. I have felt pride in "discovering" Islam while most were just born to it. I put much effort and reflection into coming to Islam, as most converts have. Because of this "elevated sense of awareness" about Islam, we feel that we will know it all and understand it all very easily. Because of the depth that we soon find Islam contains, we either come to terms with our limited human knowledge or we cast it aside due to our own ignorance (lack of knowledge).


Is something not working because it is broken or because we do not know how to work it?


Any benefit from this is from Allah. Any shortcomings is, as previously stated, due to my great ignorance of the deeper Islamic sciences. May Allah Forgive me, Protect us from Pride, and Guide us all.


As Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

[Anyabwile]

one cannot 'just believe' or take things for granted, without pondering/understanding them. Or even worse, <b>one cannot shut the ears and eyes when seeing or hearing something that does not make sense</b>, one has the obligation to look into it.
Salam

<a></a>20983[/snapback]

This is the best response in this topic i think. What you wrote above Umm is what lead me on my path where i am now. We are humans, we all see things differently and that is the beauty of life. But your words above go deeper than you may know.

[Anyabwile]

Intresting post Dan, im still here, i was trying to leave the forum as it was because i didnt wish to discuss things here, however being told or reading words that imply i got confused etc is something i'm of course going to have to respond to. However it must be made clear i have made two attempts to leave this here as it is because i thought we can all still be friends.

I am posting to point out the fallacy that many converts fall into. I will be honest and include myself. Upon coming to Islam, it is so amazing that we jump headlong into "knowledge." We read books and believe that we can learn on our own. I feel silly that I believed that this would be sucessful. Did I go to my math class and just teach myself it without a teacher?

Thats an incorrect assumption, i went to Imams, enrolled at an Islamic night school, as recommended to me by my Mosque, in fact many of my concerns started about 6 months into being deep into Islam, i bought them to Imams in fact, a brother i prayed with and went to the big big Muslim community gatherings in Birmingham was an Imam. He no longer speaks to me, will not even give me eye contact. The responses back were those of someone covering the shortfalls and obvious errors with "we are human we can not expect to understand" "you will need a deep learning of Arabic to understand" "its the arabic" For some sections of the Qur'an and hadith this is fine, however in clear sections throughout the Qur'an and the Hadith theres a point where you accept what you can clearly see as massively obvious, or...you sit back close your eyes and tell yourself "this is something i am not supposed to understand" or "this is not a sound hadith" despite the Hadith being the basis of everything we know about Mohammed, prayers etc. We would not know how to be Muslims without sound Hadith.


I'm not going to be told i got confused, i personally feel i was brave enough to escape the mental trap and fear of Hellfire and being tortured by Allah for not accepting something that is obvious when looked on from an outsiders perspective. And of course, from a Muslims perspective, but only a Muslim brave enough and strong enough can admit to oneself "i know this isn't right, i can see it" Of course Muslims will not applaud this bravery, and non Muslims will not understand how a religion can hold a person, so when you leave, you're kind of floating, no support. Some people think "its easier and safer to remain in Islam even though 80% of it doesnt make sence" and survive on FAITH alone, this is fine, i would never tell no one to leave Islam, there is no need if you havent lost anything for it, why not. Islam has cleaned up the acts of Many people i knew who were criminals, bad people and turned their lives around, if you exist within Islam as it is presented on the surface, why leave it? theres no need, its beautiful. However its if you wish to learn deeper about the religion and its origins, THATS where the choices appear, the important ones..leave or ignore.


As i said i have tried to end this but dont feel its fair to be told i was confused or i didnt go to teachers. All i wanted to do was serve Allah and make Allah proud of me so i may enter Jannah gain the love of my God, my sustainer and avoid gehenna. If i was simply confused as Dan implied i would have remained in Islam, and continued to learn, confusion is an uncomfortable feeling but not something to LEAVE ISLAM FOR. If i didnt understand or simply thought i was unsure i would have remained the rest of my life learning, why not? Theres no need to LEAVE ISLAM is there, do you see what i mean? <b>I would only leave Islam, leave Allah and disobey Allah by leaving Islam if what i admitted to myself was solid and i could see with my own two eyes</b>, i would NOT leave simply because of Confusion. Confusion isn't an emotion strong enough to leave Allah and promises of paradise for, is it.


So..with a sigh, and regret i sit back and realise i am actually participating in something i seriously tried to avoid. However the old instinct to respond, especially when it's implied i'm confused, is always going to spark up i guess. So it looks like i may be about for a bit longer than planned. I will be back later hopefully to continue this if we really have to. It makes more sence to accept me as a friend and let us part in peace. Islam is too strong a hold to be discussed with Muslim friends, how i plan to if we continue. As there can be no winner, i can see this ending with me being banned or hated. Neither of these i want, most of you here were my family for almost a year, its a shame you do not see how i feel about you still despite going our seperate ways. However...

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Salam Anyabwile


(Sorry on my previous input I was sleeping and addressed John instead of you - sorry John, peace to you too anyway...)


When I wrote the line you did choose to highlight, I KNEW subhan'Allah you would take it the other way around, since that is your perspective now. It can be taken from different angles. But MY intentions was of course from MY angle, things that do not make sense or things I do not understand I DO NOT shut my ears and eyes before them and then pretend they are not there, on the contrary, it encourages me to find the end of the rope of the issue. I am not satisfied with 'second best' knowledge. I want the knowledge that satifisfies my soul and HEART and a knowledge that also the hearts agrees on. Then I have opened my ears and eyes.


Brother Dan has written some very wise words alhamdulillah. And I fully agree that take 'knowledge' from non Islamic sources, I do not say that you do or have done, I don't know that, but that is NOT the way to knowledge about Islam. Don't forget I have been around these kind of people for about 6 months now, and that is not 'true knowledge in any sense of the words, that is some kind of brainwashing going on. I cannot call it anything else. If one is not awake, it is high time to pour water over the head to wake up!

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Anya, why do u perceive that we cannt see how u feel about all of us, leave alone about Islam. The same issue that u r leaving. You feel a lot for all of us, otherwise, there is nothing that makes u come back and try to still talk to us. While us keeping your post, and pondering on it, is actually how Islam teaches us to face any situation without fear. On the other hand, you kept making hints about areas that are not correct, u made these hints several times. As I mentioned in my post that didnt reach u correctly, you brought names of those with whome u communicated and stated that a number of members share your doubts.


People had to respond, not had to because like had, but points must be attended to. Covered.


Again to your areas of concern or doubts. Unless you kept mentioning them with a perefernce not to bring them in public, members wouldnt have responded the way you see, which I see nothing wrong with or unfriendly tone. People still talk in a civilized manner. I mean Alhamdulelah u ve been here long enough and u know how members handle non Muslims.


Noone asked you to depart or leave, no one is feeling uncomfortable with your presence.


And there will be no problem if u continue your post which I dont think it was induced i mean this is only normal.

[radiyah]

Bismillah


How are u Anya, I did not want to answer now, I was waiting for a while, but what u said about your imam frustrated me, he is wrong he should not do that. Can u please tell me what kind of Imam is he and where did he study and what is his nationality and what schools he has been to. This is the most important point Anya, when u want to learn your relegion u must know who is teaching u, and if he has a full knowledge or not. Not every Imam is a scholar, but every scholar is an Imam, becasue he lived all his life since a child learning Islam.


As Dan said if u want to learn mathematics u do not go to a whatever, was it a historian Dan [img]style_emoticons/default/huh.gif[/img] , anyways, also in Islam, u must go to a scholar. When u r sick do u go to an engineer, no u go to a doctor, and so is relegion. Some read a book or 2 a hadeeth or 2 and then they think they are the most knowledable scholars and that they can make fatwas and judge people as they please, this is so dangerous. Kindly provide me with the name of that imam in PM and all that u know about him, I will see if he is the one u can get trusted knowledge from.


And stop saying that u do not want to come back, and do not want to discuss and not lose us as friends, we will not hate u Anya, and we will not ban u, u think that after going deeper u found the truth, beleive me u did not even get near the shore of Islam, u do not know anything yet except a bit here and there, even we born muslims we are still learning and we are discovering every day new things about islam that we never knew. And all the issues that made u leave islam has answers, pm me about those too and I will try to provide them soon. And all will be provided from trusted scholars, and not from just an imam Anya.


Until then take care, and do come back friend, u will by will of Allah find what pleases u.


Salam