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wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 04-05-2007, 04:25 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Salam Wael!

Wa Alikum Assalam FHC. welcome back.

Quote:God's Word was transmitted both orally & through written Scripture. Nothing's changed. We have manuscripts that are older than the Quran. They agree to what we read in our Bible's today.

Talking logic, if you really have these manuscripts which perfectly agree with today’s Bible, then how come all of today’s Bibles do not agree with each other? Do each sect of Christianity possess a different manuscript?

Quote:Which O/T translation meets your standards? How can you be sure it matches the original?

You do not have the translation of the original FHC… I hope you can understand my English, the Bible that you have right now CONTAINS parts of God’s words, but it also contains FICTION. FICTION.

Subhan Allah, these are not my words, it is taken from Christian apologetics and research ministry who propagates the message of Christianity but at the same time slanders other religions like Islam. And yet, they confirm that the Bible contains FICTION, now I wonder which portion of the Bible was fabricated?

FICTION: 1. prose literature, especially novels, describing imaginary events and people. 2 invention as opposed to fact. 3 a false belief or statement, accepted as true for the sake of convenience.

Read what Christians said FHC; don’t try to convince me that the Bible is the absolute word of God, while your fellow Christians learned men admitted that the original was lost.

Quote:Those originals, however, because of the early date of their inception no longer exist."

Quote:we would not expect to have the originals in our possession today, as they would have disintegrated long ago.

Quote:He really should say what he believes - that the word of God WAS inspired at one time but we no longer have it,

Quote:"It also seems a bit inconsistent to say he believes the originals were inspired, when he has never seen them,

CLICK HERE

I’ve also shown you before what the Catholic Encyclopedia honestly recorded regarding the Bible, why don’t you show this to your priest and ask him for clarification?

Quote:No book of ancient times has come down to us exactly as it left the hands of its author-- all have been in some way altered. The material conditions under which a book was spread before the invention of printing (1440), the little care of the copyists, correctors, and glossators for the text, so different from the desire of accuracy exhibited to-day, explain sufficiently the divergences we find between various manuscripts of the same work. To these causes may be added, in regard to the Scriptures, exegetical difficulties and dogmatical controversies. To exempt the sacred writings from ordinary conditions a very special providence would have been necessary, and it has not been the will of God to exercise this providence."

All have been in some way altered FHC! In view of this admission, how can anyone expect me, or any Muslim, to follow an altered book?

Catholic Encyclopedia

Quote:Hmmm... slight problem! Jesus promised that "Ahmed" would abide in us forever. As far as I know, Muhammad's dead & buried (PBUH) & he's not dwelling in anyone's heart.

First of all, here is the verse from the Qur’an where Jesus prophised about Muhammad pbuh.

"O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of an apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad."(Surah 61:6)

As you can see, there is no mention that this prophet is going to live “IN US”

What you actually refer to is another verse from the Bible where Jesus said:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you Another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever. John 14: 16

Yes it is true that Muhammad pbuh is now dead, yet he is alive and with us today with his teaching, all Comforters abide with us for ever. Moses is here with us today in his teachings. Jesus is here with us today in his teachings and Muhummed also is here with us in his teachings today. May the peace and blessings of God be upon them all. remember what Jesus pbuh said?

In Luke, 16, Jesus pbuh tells us the story of the "Rich Man, Poor Man.' At death both find themselves at opposite ends , one in Heaven and the other in Hell. The rich man (Dives) simmering in Hell cries to Father Abraham to send the beggar (Lazarus) to assuage his thirst. But when every plea fails, he, as a last favour, requests that Father Abraham send the beggar back to earth to warn his living brothers against their impending doom if they heeded not the warnings of God.

But Abraham said, "If they (those still alive on earth) won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even though someone rises from the dead. " Luke 16: 31 

Jesus pbuh uttered the above fact centuries after the demise of the prophets of Israel like Jeremiah, Hosea, Zechariah, etc and over thirteen hundred years after Moses pbuh. The Pharisees at the time of Jesus pbuh and we today can still listen to "MOSES AND THE PROPHETS," for they are still alive, and with us here today in their teachings. Now apply this verse to Muhammad pbuh.

Quote:Yep! He warned us about false prophets.

True, but He gave you a guideline on how to recognize false Prophets!

Beloved, believe not every Spirit, but try the Spirits whether they are of God; because many false Prophets are gone out into the World. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every Spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. 1 John 4: 1-2 

And what do we believe? We do believe that Jesus is the only Christ and no one else.

Now you have a right to know as to what the Prophet Muhummed pbuh says about Jesus Christ pbuh.

Jesus Christ peace be upon him is spoken by name no less than 25 times in the Holy Qur'an. he is honored as

Jesus, the son of Mary, the Prophet of God, The righteous, word of God, spirit of God, etc etc..

This can never uttered by a false Prophet.

Quote:How funny! My version/translation of the Quran omits "Christians" & just refers to the Jews of Israel in that Ayat. I wonder who's fooling who here?

What translation are you using?

Quote:Loving your enemy isn't the easiest thing in the world... but it's certainly possible. God's grace is extraordinary!!!

I still insist that no one can ever love his enemy, you cant, you can’t and you can’t…

Quote:Alhamdulilah! Yalla, bring on the jizya

The confusion arises because of the lack of understanding of both the meaning and concept; anyway, while Muslims were obliged to pay the zakah as a religious duty, the non Muslims were subject to paying the jizya, which is a non religious tribute.

Quote:I'll catch up with you after Easter, Insh a Allah

Have a nice holiday. :)

Salam

Wael.

wel_mel_2 · 04-05-2007, 04:43 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Accept for the abrogated part. :banghead:

Don't get so hard on yourself CC, try to stand the fact that the Qur'an is pure and contains NO human alteration.

Although we have spoken before about this abrogation theory, but here we go again, hopefully you may understand this time, insh a Allah.

Here is the answer by Dr Zakir Naik, and I am not going to mention any of the countless verses that were abrogated by God in the Bible.

Salam

Wael.

********************************************************************

1. Two different interpretations

The Glorious Qur’an says in the following verse:

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?" [Al-Qur’an 2:106]

A reference to this is also made in chapter 16 verse 101 of Surah Nahl. The Arabic word mentioned is ayat which means ‘signs’ or ‘verses’ and which can also mean ‘revelations’. This verse of the Qur’an can be interpreted in two different ways:

a. The revelations that are abrogated are those revelations that were revealed before the Qur’an, for example the Torah, the Zaboor and the Injeel.

Here Allah (swt) says that He does not cause the previous revelations to be forgotten but He substitutes them with something better or similar, indicating that the Torah, the Zaboor and the Injeel were substituted by the Qur’an.

b. If we consider that the Arabic word ayat in the above verse refers to the verses of the Qur’an, and not previous revelations, then it indicates that none of the verses of the Qur’an are abrogated by Allah but substituted with something better or similar. This means that certain verses of the Qur’an, that were revealed earlier were substituted by verses that were revealed later. I agree with both the interpretations.

Many Muslims and non-Muslims misunderstand the second interpretation to mean that some of the earlier verses of the Qur’an were abrogated and no longer hold true for us today, as they have been replaced by the later verses of the Qur’an or the abrogating verses. This group of people even wrongly believe that these verses contradict each other.

Let us analyze a few such examples. 

2. Produce a recital like the Qur’an / 10 Surahs / 1 Surah:

Some pagan Arabs alleged that the Qur’an was forged by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Allah (swt) challenges these Arabs in the following verse of Surah Al-Isra:

"Say: If the whole of Mankind and Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support." [Al-Qur’an 17:88]

Later the challenge was made easy in the following verse of Surah Al-Hud:

"Or they may say, "He forged it." Say, "Bring ye then ten Surahs forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsover ye can, other than Allah, if ye speak the truth!’." [Al-Qur’an 11:13]

It was made easier in the following verse of Surah Yunus:

"Or do they say, "He forged it"? Say: "Bring then a Surah like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can, besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!’."

[Al-Qur’an 10:38]

Finally in Surah Al-Baqarah, Allah (swt) further simplified the challenge:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot – and of a surety ye cannot – then fear the Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones – which is prepared for those who reject faith". [Al-Qur’an 2:23-24]

Thus Allah (swt) made the challenges progressively easier. The progressively revealed verses of the Qur’an first challenged the pagans to produce a book like the Qur’an, then challenged them to produce ten Surahs (chapters) like those in the Qur’an, then one Surah and finally it challenges them to produce one Surah somewhat similar (mim mislihi) to the Qur’anic Surahs. This does not mean that the later verses that were revealed i.e. of Surah Baqarah chapter 2 verses 23 and 24 contradict the earlier three verses. Contradiction implies mentioning two things that cannot be possible simultaneously, or cannot take place simultaneously.

The earlier verses of the Qur’an i.e. the abrogated verses are still the word of God and the information contained in it is true to this day. For instance the challenge to produce a recital like the Qur’an stands to this day. Similarly the challenge to produce ten Surahs and one Surah exactly like the Qur’an also holds true and the last challenge of producing one surah somewhat similar to the Qur’an also holds true. It does not contradict the earlier challenges, but this is the easiest of all the challenges posed by the Qur’an. If the last challenge cannot be fulfilled, the question of anyone fulfilling the other three more difficult challenges does not arise.

Suppose I speak about a person that he is so dumb, that he would not be able to pass the 10th standard in school. Later I say that he would not be able to pass the 5th standard, and further say that he would not be able to pass even the 1st standard. Finally I say that he is so dull that he would not even be able to pass K.G. i.e. kindergarten. One has to pass kindergarten before one can be admitted to school. What I am stating is that the person is so dull as to be unable to pass even kindergarten. My four statements do not contradict each other, but my last statement i.e. the person would not be able to pass the kindergarten is sufficient to indicate the intelligence of that person. If a person cannot even pass kindergarten, the question of him passing the first standard or 5th or 10th, does not arise.

3. Gradual prohibition of intoxicants

Another example of such verses is that related to gradual prohibition of intoxicants. The first revelation of the Qur’an to deal with intoxicants was the following verse from Surah Baqarah:

"They ask thee concerning wine and gambling say: ‘In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit’." [Al-Qur’an 2:219]

The next verse to be revealed regarding intoxicants is the following verse from Surah Nisa:

"O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say" [Al-Qur’an 4:43]

The last verse to be revealed regarding intoxicants was the following verse from Surah Al-Maidah:

"O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan’s handiwork; eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper." [Al-Qur’an 5:90]

The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years. Many reforms that were brought about in the society were gradual. This was to facilitate the adoption of new laws by the people. An abrupt change in society always leads to rebellion and anarchy.

The prohibition of intoxicants was revealed in three stages. The first revelation only mentioned that in the intoxicants there is great sin and some profit but the sin is greater than the profit. The next revelation prohibited praying in an intoxicated state, indicating that one should not consume intoxicants during the day, since a Muslim has to pray five times a day. This verse does state that when one is not praying at night one is allowed to consume intoxicants. It means one may have or one may not have. The Qur’an does not comment on it. If this verse had mentioned that one is allowed to have intoxicants while not praying then there would have been a contradiction. Allah (swt) chose words appropriately. Finally the total prohibition of intoxicants at all times was revealed in Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 90.

This clearly indicates that the three verses do not contradict each other. Had they been contradicting, it would not have been possible to follow all the three verses simultaneously. Since a Muslim is expected to follow each and every verse of the Qur’an, only by following the last verse i.e. of Surah Maidah (5:90), he simultaneously agrees and follows the previous two verses.

Suppose I say that I do not live in Los Angeles. Later I say that I do not live in California. Finally I say, I do not live in the United States of America. This does not imply that these three statements contradict each other. Each statement gives more information than the previous statement. The third statement includes the information contained in the first two statements. Thus, only by saying that I do not live in the United States of America, it is obvious, that I also do not live in California nor New York. Similarly since consuming alcohol is totally prohibited, it is obvious that praying in an intoxicated state is also prohibited and the information that in intoxicants is "great sin and some profit for men; but the sin is greater than profit" also holds true.

4. Qur’an does not contain any contradictions

The theory of abrogation does not imply that there is a contradiction in the Qur’an, since it is possible to follow all the verses of the Qur’an at the same time.

If there is a contradiction in the Qur’an, then it cannot be the word of Allah (swt).

"Do they not consider the Qur’an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy (contradictions)."

[Al-Qur’an 4:82]

***********************************

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 04-06-2007, 06:49 AM by wel_mel_2.)

!!!!!!!!

Faith Hope Charity · 04-09-2007, 04:56 PM

All for the greater glory of God.

May the peace of Christ be with you!

Talking logic, if you really have these manuscripts which perfectly agree with today’s Bible, then how come all of today’s Bibles do not agree with each other? Do each sect of Christianity possess a different manuscript?

I can only speak on behalf of Catholic Bibles. The messages in all approved Catholic Bibles do agree with each other. There are various translations in the English language (as far as I know, there's only one version of the Catholic Arabic Bible) because English is a complicated language especially when translating from Hebrew, Greek & Latin. The older versions of the Holy Bible contain fancy words (thou, thee, thy, etc), therefore, new editions were produced using modern day English. The RSV is known for its hard to understand words & is recommended for scholars only, whereas the NAB is recommended for everyday use & contains simple words (e.g. "annexed" in 1 Maccabees 10:38 RSV is substituted with "incorporated" in the NAB). Having said all that, it's not the translation of words that matter it's the interpretation of verses & this must always be done in light of Catholic tradition. We aren't "people of the book".

You do not have the translation of the original FHC… I hope you can understand my English, the Bible that you have right now CONTAINS parts of God’s words, but it also contains FICTION.

If it's not too much trouble, could you please go through the Holy Bible & point out which "parts" you believe are truly God's word & which "parts" aren't? Just for future reference. Thanks :)

Subhan Allah, these are not my words, it is taken from Christian apologetics and research ministry who propagates the message of Christianity but at the same time slanders other religions like Islam. And yet, they confirm that the Bible contains FICTION, now I wonder which portion of the Bible was fabricated?

That's between you & that website. It has nothing to do with me. I didn't even go there.

Read what Christians said FHC; don’t try to convince me that the Bible is the absolute word of God, while your fellow Christians learned men admitted that the original was lost.

I'm just trying to convince you that I'm not convinced. When it comes to Catholicism, it's either the Church's way or the Church's way ;) If she wants your opinion, she'll give it to you :lol:

I’ve also shown you before what the Catholic Encyclopedia honestly recorded regarding the Bible, why don’t you show this to your priest and ask him for clarification?

Wael, what's wrong with you? We've already been through this. I don't need clarification, habib! My parish priest is my uncle, he'll just look at me & say, "my beloved niece, you should know better!"

All have been in some way altered FHC! In view of this admission, how can anyone expect me, or any Muslim, to follow an altered book?

Here's an example of an alteration...

One manuscript reads, "Jesus Christ" & a later one reads, "Christ Jesus".

Boy oh boy! What a catastrophe!

First of all, here is the verse from the Qur’an where Jesus prophised about Muhammad pbuh.

"O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of an apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad."(Surah 61:6)

As you can see, there is no mention that this prophet is going to live “IN US”

What you actually refer to is another verse from the Bible where Jesus said:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you Another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever. John 14: 16

Yes it is true that Muhammad pbuh is now dead, yet he is alive and with us today with his teaching, all Comforters abide with us for ever. Moses is here with us today in his teachings. Jesus is here with us today in his teachings and Muhummed also is here with us in his teachings today. May the peace and blessings of God be upon them all. remember what Jesus pbuh said?

I was actually referring to St John 14: 16-17. If you continue reading, Jesus Christ, the Son of God & Messiah reveals who the Comforter is & states that He will "live in you". Sorry, Muhammad (PBUH) doesn't quite make the cut.

In Luke, 16, Jesus pbuh tells us the story of the "Rich Man, Poor Man.' At death both find themselves at opposite ends , one in Heaven and the other in Hell. The rich man (Dives) simmering in Hell cries to Father Abraham to send the beggar (Lazarus) to assuage his thirst. But when every plea fails, he, as a last favour, requests that Father Abraham send the beggar back to earth to warn his living brothers against their impending doom if they heeded not the warnings of God.

But Abraham said, "If they (those still alive on earth) won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even though someone rises from the dead. " Luke 16: 31 

Jesus pbuh uttered the above fact centuries after the demise of the prophets of Israel like Jeremiah, Hosea, Zechariah, etc and over thirteen hundred years after Moses pbuh. The Pharisees at the time of Jesus pbuh and we today can still listen to "MOSES AND THE PROPHETS," for they are still alive, and with us here today in their teachings. Now apply this verse to Muhammad pbuh.

My heart opens up whenever someone reads the Scriptures to me. Even though the interpretation descends from the fairies, I still love it :wub:

Which part am I applying to Muhammad (PBUH)? Don't Muslims believe he came after the O/T prophets?

This passage is talking about the treatment of the downtrodden by the Pharisees (Jews) who have no excuse for their behaviour.

Jesus Christ is spoken by name no less than 25 times in the Holy Qur'an. he is honored as

Jesus, the son of Mary, the Prophet of God, The righteous, word of God, spirit of God, etc etc..

Wael, I have nothing against Muhammad (PBUH). I don't believe he's a prophet because God's covenant was fulfilled in Christ. Jesus' last words on the Cross were, "It is accomplished" (or "it is consummated" - depending on the translation ;)), therefore, there's no need for more prophets. But if Muhammad's (PBUH) message sets your mind at ease & your heart at peace then by all means believe in him & his mission :thumb:

Jesus Christ is not the "Spirit of God" in Christianity.

What translation are you using?

It's an English translation published by Bantam Dell - probably a weak one but nevertheless this particular Ayah makes sense to me because I studied history. The Gospel during the time of Muhammad (PBUH) was transmitted orally, but the Torah was handwritten on scrolls by Jews, so I can see where Muhammad (PBUH) or Allah (SWT) was coming from.

I still insist that no one can ever love his enemy, you cant, you can’t and you can’t…

:( I hope you change your mind one day. The reason why Christians emphasize this teaching is because we believe every human being is created in the image & likeness of God (blasphemous to Muslims, I know), therefore, even though someone has wronged us through the power of evil, we're commanded to love them because if we hate them, we're hating God's creation. Everyone has good within them regardless of their bad actions.

The confusion arises because of the lack of understanding of both the meaning and concept; anyway, while Muslims were obliged to pay the zakah as a religious duty, the non Muslims were subject to paying the jizya, which is a non religious tribute.

I know Mate! I was just kidding :P Jizya is fine.

Have a nice holiday. :)

I need one because of you :lol:

Take care, champ!

Al-fateh · 04-09-2007, 07:06 PM

Quote:May the peace of Christ be with you!

Mr. Lebanon. i noticed from your posts that u are a very hardcore catholic christian. I lived in Lebanon for 11 years, and i know the type of mentality u stretch.

but i have a question

why u hold the praise of a man over the praise of God?

knowing Jesus is NOT god...

isnt this a form of shirk? u assocaite partners with Allah?

u continue to say Christ...a proof that u hold what is WORLDLY over what is PERFECT.

i just need an explanation, thats all

btw, where are u from? Zahle? Mar Mkhayil? Zal2a? Junieh? Beyt Mireh? Kaslik?

Faith Hope Charity · 04-10-2007, 02:10 AM

All for the grater glory of God.

Peace be with you!

Quote:Mr. Lebanon.

Correction... Miss Lebanon :thumb:

Muslims around here always confuse me for a guy. It must be because I argue too much :lol:

Quote:why u hold the praise of a man over the praise of God?

knowing Jesus is NOT god...

isnt this a form of shirk? u assocaite partners with Allah?

u continue to say Christ...a proof that u hold what is WORLDLY over what is PERFECT.

i just need an explanation, thats all

This isn't going to make any sense to you whatever because no Muslim can grasp this truth...

Christians profess a belief in the Most Holy Trinity: One Divine Essence (God), Three Distinct Persons (Father Son Holy Spirit).

Jesus is the Son of God who became Man by the Incarnation. His Divinity was united to His Humanity. Therefore He's both True God & True Man.

This isn't shirk from our end because we believe Jess is Allah - not a partner of Allah.

Jesus Christ is perfect - both as God & as Man. He's sinless in His human nature. St Paul refers to Him as the "second Adam" who reversed Original Sin. Jesus Christ, the Son of God & Messiah, paid a debt He didn't owe because humanity owed a debt it couldn't pay.

That's the power of God's love for us. The Son of God became the Son of Man so that the sons of men may become sons of God :wub:

I don't expect you to understand or accept any of the above. But at least this gives some sort of idea about the Christian faith.

Quote:btw, where are u from? Zahle? Mar Mkhayil? Zal2a? Junieh? Beyt Mireh? Kaslik?

Good guess! You got it right the first time :) My dad's from Zahle & my mom's from Hardine.

Lebanon is more than just a country... it's a message! Give us peace & we'll show you wonders!

Peace & blessings.

Al-fateh · 04-10-2007, 03:23 AM

Quote:All for the grater glory of God.

Peace be with you!

Correction... Miss Lebanon :thumb:

Muslims around here always confuse me for a guy. It must be because I argue too much :lol:

This isn't going to make any sense to you whatever because no Muslim can grasp this truth...

Christians profess a belief in the Most Holy Trinity: One Divine Essence (God), Three Distinct Persons (Father Son Holy Spirit).

Jesus is the Son of God who became Man by the Incarnation. His Divinity was united to His Humanity. Therefore He's both True God & True Man.

This isn't shirk from our end because we believe Jess is Allah - not a partner of Allah.

Jesus Christ is perfect - both as God & as Man. He's sinless in His human nature. St Paul refers to Him as the "second Adam" who reversed Original Sin. Jesus Christ, the Son of God & Messiah, paid a debt He didn't owe because humanity owed a debt it couldn't pay.

That's the power of God's love for us. The Son of God became the Son of Man so that the sons of men may become sons of God :wub:

I don't expect you to understand or accept any of the above. But at least this gives some sort of idea about the Christian faith.

Good guess! You got it right the first time :) My dad's from Zahle & my mom's from Hardine.

Lebanon is more than just a country... it's a message! Give us peace & we'll show you wonders!

Peace & blessings.

im new to the forums, thats why i could not tell if ur a guy or a girl...but thanks now i know

as for the concept of the 3 in 1.... i think every muslim understands it , and rejects it, because it contradicts the sound mind....

it is enough for u to state that God has always been what he is right now....why cz he is PERFECT

you on the other hand changed him from Chocolate pudding, to a KitKat chocolate bar, and still say he is the same. (tell me what sound mind can understand this?)

u said it urself.... HUMAN, he is HUMAN...and u praise him to be a GOD.... moreover u move forward to say that he paid a debt he didnt owe, as if GOD was unsure of his creation, when u seem to forget he is in no need of his creation, nor do they effect on him on any sort of way or level.

u said it is not SHIRK.... by u saying he has a son, thats shirk

by u saying he is the father, thats shirk

by u saying he needs the son, this is shirk

u need to read more abiout what shirk is....shirk is of different kinds.

as for being from Zahle...ahlan wa sahlan ya bint :) Zahle used to be one of my favorite mishwar for a neat restaurant in the mountains.

Lebanon is a very nice place and i miss it dearly.

Lebanese people are very proud to be lebanese, but i think they over do it sometimes, a perfect example is what u said about them....in ur last sentence.

I ask of u and ur priests to give some respect and dignity to GOD, and not say what they know NOT of him. All this JESUS is the son, is a myth and cannot be proven...based on fairy tales and whims and desires of the jews who distorted the christian faith a long time ago.

wel_mel_2 · 04-10-2007, 04:03 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:I can only speak on behalf of Catholic Bibles. The messages in all approved Catholic Bibles do agree with each other. There are various translations in the English language (as far as I know, there's only one version of the Catholic Arabic Bible) because English is a complicated language especially when translating from Hebrew, Greek & Latin. The older versions of the Holy Bible contain fancy words (thou, thee, thy, etc), therefore, new editions were produced using modern day English. The RSV is known for its hard to understand words & is recommended for scholars only, whereas the NAB is recommended for everyday use & contains simple words (e.g. "annexed" in 1 Maccabees 10:38 RSV is substituted with "incorporated" in the NAB). Having said all that, it's not the translation of words that matter it's the interpretation of verses & this must always be done in light of Catholic tradition. We aren't "people of the book".

I was not talking about the choice of words in the Bible translations, the reason why Christians possess dozens of different Bible versions, is because they do not have any original copy of their Scriptures to compare it with their translation, so anyone can freely make claims that his Bible is perfectly matching with the original, but how this could be when in fact there is no original!!!

Quote:If it's not too much trouble, could you please go through the Holy Bible & point out which "parts" you believe are truly God's word & which "parts" aren't? Just for future reference. Thanks

I’ve discussed this matter with CC before, but am going to repeat it again insh a Allah.

I believe that the Bible may contain the word of God and the words of Jesus pbuh, but it also contains interpolations and fabrications that has nothing to do with God and Jesus pbuh. and that's why the Qur'an was revealed to make things clear to those who are confused.

Here are some examples which I will never believe that they were even inspired by God.

"And she kept LUSTING in the style of concubines belonging to those whose fleshly member is as the fleshly member of male asses and whose GENITAL ORGAN is as the GENITAL ORGAN of male (Ezekil 23:1-49)

I cant imagine that God REVEALED or INSPIRED those words to the author of the Bible.

.... for the spirit of WHOREDOMS hath cause them (the Jews) to err, and they have gone a WHORERING from under their God (osea 4:12, 6:10 and 9:1)

"She seized him and kisses him... "Come let us make our fill of love till the morning, let us delight ourselves with love, FOR MY HUSBAND IS NOT AT HOME..." Proverbs 7:7-22

just WOWWW.

" Says the woman: "My king was lying on his couch... "My lover has the scent of myrrh AS HE LIES UPON MY BREASTS" Song of Songs 1:12-13

" by night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth. ..."When i found him... I HELD HIM. AND WOULD NOT LET HIM GO, UNTIL I HADE BROUGHT HIM INTO MY MOTHER'S HOUSE TO THE ROOM WHERE I WAS BORN" song of songs 3:1-4

"Behold, your beautiful my love, YOUR LIPS are like a scarlet thread...

YOUR TWO BREASTS are like fawns...

YOUR ROUNDED THINGHS are like jewels.. I say I will go up the palm tree, Oh may YOUR BREASETS BE LIKE CUSTERS OF VINE. Song of songs 4:1-7

And on and on, such stories I will never allow my household to even touch.

Thats why Goerge Bernard Shaw said about the Bible that it is:

Quote:The most dangerous book on earth, keep it under lock and key: your children must not have access to it"

Here are also few examples of what I may consider to be God's words.

Here or Israel the Lord OUR God is One Lord. I accept that.

another verse which make sense is: I can of my own self do nothing, as I hear I judge and my judgment is Just because am not seeking my own will, but the will of my father... anyone say this statement is considered to be a Muslim.

He said I did not come to destroy the law or the prophet but I came to fulfill, I do agree with that.

He said worship the father ONLY... which means worship God alone. I accept that too.

I have no problem with verses like I am the Lord and beside me there is no other Savior, I have no problem with verses like I am the Lord and beside me there is no other Lords, etc etc…

I recommend that you read some books written by Christian scholars who affirm that the Bible was not remained in its pure form as it was originally written.

You may read WHO WROTE THE BIBLE by Jewish Scholar of Old Testament - Richard E. Friedman. You can also find another book titled Bible Contradictions?" - Are There Contradictions - Why? by Jim Meritt who is a Christian. You may also read Secret Gospel of Mark(?) written by Bible scholars who confirm the interpolation and fabrications found in their book. Read "How Did 1 God - Become 3?" Arianism Vs. Council of Nicaea which explains about Church History written by John Raymond a Catholic Priest. Read "Council of Nicaea - Trinity Accepted in 325 AD".

Do some research and you will come to know about the reality of the Bible. insh a Allah.

Quote:Wael, what's wrong with you? We've already been through this. I don't need clarification, habib! My parish priest is my uncle, he'll just look at me & say, "my beloved niece, you should know better!"

Totally clear, you don’t need clarification so why you are bothering yourself with my posts? Are you even reading them? You are not even willing to open your mind a little bit to consider that what I am saying could be true. So what am I suppose to do?

Quote:Here's an example of an alteration...
One manuscript reads, "Jesus Christ" & a later one reads, "Christ Jesus".

Boy oh boy! What a catastrophe!

You are such a picky girl… :D

No you don’t understand what alteration means when it comes to the Bible, I am talking about verses that were restored to the text such as Mark 16:9-20, 1 John 5:7 and as I mentioned earlier about the story of the woman who was caught in adultery, such verses not to be found in the oldest and best manuscripts according to Christian scholars, there are thousands of other examples that if we spend our entire life pointing them out, we will never be able too.

Quote:I was actually referring to St John 14: 16-17. If you continue reading, Jesus Christ, the Son of God & Messiah reveals who the Comforter is & states that He will "live in you". Sorry, Muhammad (PBUH) doesn't quite make the cut.

And I was talking about the Qur’an, our Jesus pbuh clearly declared that Muhammad pbuh is coming after him.

Quote:Wael, I have nothing against Muhammad (PBUH). I don't believe he's a prophet because God's covenant was fulfilled in Christ. Jesus' last words on the Cross were, "It is accomplished" (or "it is consummated" - depending on the translation ), therefore, there's no need for more prophets. But if Muhammad's (PBUH) message sets your mind at ease & your heart at peace then by all means believe in him & his mission

I just insist that Muhammad pbuh was necessary for humanity.

Quote:It's an English translation published by Bantam Dell - probably a weak.

Don’t use weak translation FHC, you better get the translation of Yusuf Ali, it has an amazing commentary and very comprehensive index.

Quote: I hope you change your mind one day. The reason why Christians emphasize this teaching is because we believe every human being is created in the image & likeness of God (blasphemous to Muslims, I know), therefore, even though someone has wronged us through the power of evil, we're commanded to love them because if we hate them, we're hating God's creation. Everyone has good within them regardless of their bad actions.

Yes yes, you are commanded to love your enemy I know, and I admitted that it is a beautiful teaching, but it is not practical, no one could ever love his enemy.

Salam

Wael.

Faith Hope Charity · 04-10-2007, 06:54 AM

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.

May the Peace of Our Lord & Saviour be with you!

Quote:as for the concept of the 3 in 1.... i think every muslim understands it , and rejects it, because it contradicts the sound mind....

it is enough for u to state that God has always been what he is right now....why cz he is PERFECT

you on the other hand changed him from Chocolate pudding, to a KitKat chocolate bar, and still say he is the same. (tell me what sound mind can understand this?)

The Most Holy Trinity is a mystery but not a contradiction. I've explained it a million times on these boards. Just think of water - one substance in three forms: liquid, ice & steam.

The Incarnation can be likened to water being mixed with salt, leaving you with saltwater (a weak & probably flawed analogy - I literally just made it up myself 2 seconds ago).

How do we change God from chocolate pudding to a kitkat (thanks for making me crave it by the way)?

Quote:u said it urself.... HUMAN, he is HUMAN...and u praise him to be a GOD.... moreover u move forward to say that he paid a debt he didnt owe, as if GOD was unsure of his creation, when u seem to forget he is in no need of his creation, nor do they effect on him on any sort of way or level.

I know the Incarnation is repugnant to Muslims & I can totally live with that. But it doesn't change anything from my end.

Jesus Christ is both Divine & Human. If God wants His Son to become human & die on the Cross for our salvation, who's going to stop Him?

According to Catholicism...

When God created Adam, He didn't will that Adam disobey Him. Adam freely broke God's Commandment & as a consequence, fell from grace. God promised to send a Redeemer & bring Adam to His original state. Every human descendent from Adam inherited original Sin & share in Adam's fallen human nature. We needed a sinless & flawless Person to destroy the power of evil that hung over humanity, therefore, it was fitting for God to send His only-begotten Son to make up for what His first created son did & restore life. God's Creation. God's Redemption. God's Sanctification. Simple yet profound!

Quote:u said it is not SHIRK.... by u saying he has a son, thats shirk

by u saying he is the father, thats shirk

by u saying he needs the son, this is shirk

From an Islamic viewpoint - maybe! But not in Christianity. Did you read the explanations in the other thread? Please do. It's bound to make sense to you sooner or later.

http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4146

Quote:u need to read more abiout what shirk is....shirk is of different kinds.

Please explain it to me (if you don't mind). After all, this is an Islamic forum :D

Quote:as for being from Zahle...ahlan wa sahlan ya bint :) Zahle used to be one of my favorite mishwar for a neat restaurant in the mountains.

Merci ya zalami :) Ahlan fik! Zahle's my favourite place in the whole wide world.

Quote:Lebanon is a very nice place and i miss it dearly.

I miss it more than you :(

Where do you live now? Did you live there as a child, teenager or adult?

Quote:Lebanese people are very proud to be lebanese, but i think they over do it sometimes, a perfect example is what u said about them....in ur last sentence.

I agree! I think they go too far when they're willing to sacrifice their lives & dignity for a piece of land. As much as I love Libnan, I wouldn't compromise my religious beliefs or die for it.

For he record, I'm very fond of Faoud Sanioira. He's a top Prime Minister. Allah ayishou wa ayish Libnan!

What Arab country do you originate from?

Quote:I ask of u and ur priests to give some respect and dignity to GOD, and not say what they know NOT of him. All this JESUS is the son, is a myth and cannot be proven...based on fairy tales and whims and desires of the jews who distorted the christian faith a long time ago.

I respect your beliefs & I hope you can respect mine. I'll never impose The Faith on you nor will I ever denounce it. I hope you can live with that & Insha a Allah we can still be "friends" (I use that term loosely because I just found out in another thread that Muslims can't befriend non-believers).

Take care & God bless.

Faith Hope Charity · 04-10-2007, 07:37 AM

All for the greater glory of God.

Salam Wael!

Quote:I was not talking about the choice of words in the Bible translations, the reason why Christians possess dozens of different Bible versions, is because they do not have any original copy of their Scriptures to compare it with their translation, so anyone can freely make claims that his Bible is perfectly matching with the original, but how this could be when in fact there is no original!!!

It's a fact because Sacred Catholic Tradition testifies to Sacred Catholic Scripture. The Church Fathers from the early centuries constantly wrote commentaries on Scripture & nothing they quoted isn't being quoted today.

We have no reason to change the contents of the Holy Bible & even if we wanted to we couldn't. The Holy Spirit is guiding the Church from error. This might seem like fantasy to you but I don't care. I believe it with all my heart & I always will. I trust you but I trust God more :D

Quote:I’ve discussed this matter with CC before, but am going to repeat it again insh a Allah.

I believe that the Bible may contain the word of God and the words of Jesus pbuh, but it also contains interpolations and fabrications that has nothing to do with God and Jesus pbuh. and that's why the Qur'an was revealed to make things clear to those who are confused.

Okie dokie! You're entitled to your beliefs. I can respect that.

Quote:"And she kept LUSTING in the style of concubines belonging to those whose fleshly member is as the fleshly member of male asses and whose GENITAL ORGAN is as the GENITAL ORGAN of male (Ezekil 23:1-49)

I cant imagine that God REVEALED or INSPIRED those words to the author of the Bible.

.... for the spirit of WHOREDOMS hath cause them (the Jews) to err, and they have gone a WHORERING from under their God (osea 4:12, 6:10 and 9:1)

"She seized him and kisses him... "Come let us make our fill of love till the morning, let us delight ourselves with love, FOR MY HUSBAND IS NOT AT HOME..." Proverbs 7:7-22

just WOWWW.

" Says the woman: "My king was lying on his couch... "My lover has the scent of myrrh AS HE LIES UPON MY BREASTS" Song of Songs 1:12-13

" by night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth. ..."When i found him... I HELD HIM. AND WOULD NOT LET HIM GO, UNTIL I HADE BROUGHT HIM INTO MY MOTHER'S HOUSE TO THE ROOM WHERE I WAS BORN" song of songs 3:1-4

"Behold, your beautiful my love, YOUR LIPS are like a scarlet thread...

YOUR TWO BREASTS are like fawns...

YOUR ROUNDED THINGHS are like jewels.. I say I will go up the palm tree, Oh may YOUR BREASETS BE LIKE CUSTERS OF VINE. Song of songs 4:1-7

And on and on, such stories I will never allow my household to even touch.

These verses are just as significant as the verses in the Gospels. Only those who have a dirty mind will be disgusted by what they read :P But to the pure all things are pure! There's nothing more beautiful than the human body & nothing a man & a woman do is more Godlike then when they unite together as one flesh. When they commit sexual sins or idolatry they've desecrated the holy of holies & caused so much damage between their relationship with God.

That's enough for now. Nothing I say will change the way you feel about these texts but if you'd like an in-depth interpretation, please ask :) Either way, Christians do believe these words are inspired & their true meaning is mesmerizing!!!

Quote:He said worship the father ONLY... which means worship God alone. I accept that too.

Are you serious? You don't mind this verse. I didn't think Muslims were permitted to call God "Father". You're not going to get into trouble are you?

Quote:I recommend that you read some books written by Christian scholars who affirm that the Bible was not remained in its pure form as it was originally written.

You may read WHO WROTE THE BIBLE by Jewish Scholar of Old Testament - Richard E. Friedman. You can also find another book titled Bible Contradictions?" - Are There Contradictions - Why? by Jim Meritt who is a Christian. You may also read Secret Gospel of Mark(?) written by Bible scholars who confirm the interpolation and fabrications found in their book. Read "How Did 1 God - Become 3?" Arianism Vs. Council of Nicaea which explains about Church History written by John Raymond a Catholic Priest. Read "Council of Nicaea - Trinity Accepted in 325 AD".

Do some research and you will come to know about the reality of the Bible. insh a Allah.

Thanks for the recommendations. Rather than read all those books I'll just keep chatting to you in order to find out about all the warped theories that are out there.

Ultimately, the Bible is the property of the Catholic Church & I'm a Catholic so I'm only interested in what Rome has to say in regards to Scripture. Unless John Raymond's book contains the imprimatur (a stamp of approval found on the first page) then I have no choice but to toss it in the heretical pile on top of the Da Vinci Code.

The best way to know the reality of the Holy Bible is to read it - Catholic RSV version ;)

Quote:Totally clear, you don’t need clarification so why you are bothering yourself with my posts? Are you even reading them? You are not even willing to open your mind a little bit to consider that what I am saying could be true. So what am I suppose to do?

I'm not asking you to post, but if you do, I won't ignore them. Studying Sacred Scripture with you is like an experiment. You give me a lot to think about. Insh a Allah, I'll benefit it from all this in the future - I'm a budding theologian. I hope you'll read & recommend my work down the track :D

Quote:No you don’t understand what alteration means when it comes to the Bible, I am talking about verses that were restored to the text such as Mark 16:9-20, 1 John 5:7 and as I mentioned earlier about the story of the woman who was caught in adultery, such verses not to be found in the oldest and best manuscripts according to Christian scholars, there are thousands of other examples that if we spend our entire life pointing them out, we will never be able too.

I remember discussing this issue with someone a while ago - come to think of it, it was you :lol: Nothing's changed since then, Wael. Please refresh your memory: Post #11 http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4168&st=0

I think that'll do for now.

Take care & God bless.

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