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Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - abdulwalee - 03-25-2007
<b>Question </b>
Jesus said:"He who believes in the son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36); are you not under the wrath of God for not being a follower of Christ - a Christian, by belief?
<b>Answer </b>
It is an interesting question. In fact, we Muslims should be asking the question to you the followers of Christ. Do the vast majority of Christians truthfully believe Christ for what he said he was, and, truly understand his commands and obey them?
We believe, most of the followers who claim to be Christians do not even understand the implications of calling their Leader or Lord; "Christ". (The readers will understand what I mean by the last sentence, once they go through the rest of the text).
Here is the answer to your question. The above verse has two parts. `Belief' and `Obedience'.
On the subject of Belief in Christ, Jesus asked his disciples; "But who do you say that I am? And Peter answered and said, "The Christ of God." (Luke 9:20). Peter did not say God or a god. We Muslims truly believe Jesus was "The Christ (al-Masih) of God". The expression "The Christ of God" literally means; "The one that was anointed by God himself". Please go back in time and think. God performed the ceremony of anointing (physically or spiritually) and for that reason, Jesus became "The Christ of God". Now may I please ask you a simple question. Who is greater and exalted; the one who anointed, or, the one who got anointed? Since God anointed Jesus, God is the greater and exalted between the two, which we Muslims, do truly believe. But surprisingly, the followers who say Jesus is "Christ", don't.
Hot Tip:
"...Thy holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint,..." (Acts 4:27 - New American Standard Bible). This leaves no room for doubt that Jesus was a `Servant of God'. Besides, there are other verses which declare Jesus; God's Servant.
Now let us go to the second part of the quoted verse; "obeying the Christ". Please read the following verse and ask yourself a question; have I obeyed?
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24 Have I believed and placed my trust basically, fundamentally and predominately in Him or in Jesus?
Hot Tip:
Jesus said; "But I do not seek my glory; there is One who seeks and judges." John 8:51. Who is this "One", who is not Jesus? Have you basically, essentially and fundamentally glorified the "One" or Jesus? Please remember, the "One" will be the Judge on the Day of Judgement and not Jesus. If you disbelieve or disobey the above word of Jesus please read the verse quoted by you and then think about the "wrath of God".
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Curious Christian - 03-25-2007
:banghead:
I see the practice of self interpreting the bible is alive and well on Islam Message.
I think I'll crack open the Quran and go about interpreting it myself...lets see what kind of opinion I'll develop.
This has been done before. Jesus' divinity is testified through the bible Old and New Testament...the heresy that he wasn't God was around long before Islam. Those types of lies have always given way to the truth.
<b>I. Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son</b>
Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.
Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.
Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.
Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.
Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.
2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.
Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.
Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.
Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.
Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.
Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.
Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.
Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.
Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.
Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.
Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means "God is with us" - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.
Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.
Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.
Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.
Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.
Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.
Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said "I have said nothing secretly."
Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus' name every knee should bow and tongue confess.
Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.
Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.
Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.
Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus' glorious appearance.
Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.
Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.
Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattle, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.
Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus' voice was like the sound of many waters.
Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.
<b>II. Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God</b>
John 1:1 - John writes, "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).
John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).
John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.
John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.
John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.
John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.
Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.
Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.
Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.
Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.
Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.
Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.
1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.
Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.
Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.
Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).
Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.
Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.
Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.
Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.
Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.
Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.
Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."
Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."
Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."
Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.
2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.
Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6.
Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.
<b>III. Jesus Christ Claims to be God</b>
Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.
Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.
Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.
Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."
Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.
Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.
Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.
Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.
Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.
John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.
John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.
John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."
John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.
John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.
John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.
John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.
John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.
John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."
John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.
John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.
John 13:13 - Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM."
John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.
John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.
John 16:28 - Jesus says that "He came from the Father and has come into the world."
John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.
John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."
Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.
Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.
Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
<b>IV. Jesus' Miracles Testify that He is God</b>
Matt. 1:23; Mark 1:27,35 - Jesus was conceived in the virginal womb of the Blessed Mother.
Matt. 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; John 1:32 - God's Spirit descends upon Jesus and the Father declares Jesus to be His Son.
Matt. 4:23-24; 9:35;15:30; Mark 1:34; 3:10; 6:5; Luke 4:40; 7:10; 13:13; 14:4; John 4:52 - Jesus miraculously cures illness and disease.
Matt. 7:35 - Jesus cures a deaf person with a speech impediment.
Matt. 8:3; Mark 1:41; Luke 5:13; 17:14 - Jesus cures leprosy.
Matt. 9:21-22; Mark 5:27-34; Luke 8:44 - the hem of Jesus' cloak cures the woman with the hemorrhage. See also Matt. 14:36.
Matt. 8:13; 9:7; Mark 2:9; Luke 5:25 - Jesus cures those who are paralyzed.
Matt. 8:15; Mark 1:31; Luke 4:39 - Jesus cures Peter's mother-in-law's fever.
Matt. 8:26; Mark 4:39; Luke 8:24 - Jesus calms the storm. Even the wind and sea obey Him.
Matt. 8:32; 9:33; 12:22; 15:28; 17:18; Mark 1:26,34; 3:11; 5:13; 7:30; 9:26; Luke 4:35,41; 8:33; 9:42; 11:14 - Jesus has power over demons.
Matt. 9:4; 12:25; Luke 6:8; 11:17 - Jesus knows people's thoughts.
Matt. 9:25; Mark 5:24; John 11:44 - Jesus raises people from the dead.
Matt. 9:30; 12:22; 20:34; 21:14; Mark 8:25; 10:52; Luke 7:21; 18:42; John 9:11 - Jesus cures the blind.
Matt. 12:13; Mark 3:5; Luke 6:10 - Jesus cures the man with the withered hand.
Matt. 14:19-20; 5:36-37; Mark 6:41-42; 8:7-8; Luke 9:16-17; John 6:11 - Jesus multiplies the loaves and fish and feeds the crowd of thousands.
Matt. 14:26; Mark 6:48; John 6:19 - Jesus walks on water.
Matt. 15:21; 16:21; 17:9,22; 20:18-19; 26:2; Mark 10:33-34; Luke 9:44; 17:25; 18:32-34 - Jesus predicts His passion.
Matt. 17:2; Mark 9:2; Luke 9:29 - Jesus is transfigured in glory.
Matt. 17:27 - Jesus miraculously has a shekel appear in the mouth of a fish.
Matt. 21:2-3; Mark 11:2; Luke 19:30 - Jesus predicts that a colt would be available for Him.
Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14,20 - Jesus curses the fig tree and it withers.
Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:2; Luke 21:32 - Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem which occurred in 70 A.D.
Matt. 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-20; Luke 22:21; John 13:21,26 - Jesus predicts Judas' betrayal.
Matt. 26:26-28; Mk. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus changes bread and wine into His body and blood.
Matt. 26:34; Mark 14:30; Luke 22:34; John 13:38 - Jesus predicts Peter's denial.
Matt. 27:51-54; Mark 15:38-39 - supernatural events occur at Jesus' death.
Matt. 28:9; Mark 16:9,12,14; Luke 7:14-15; 8:54-55; 24:5,31,36; John 20:14,19,26; 21:1-14 - Jesus rises from the dead.
Mark 14:13; Luke 22:10 - Jesus predicts that a man carrying a jug of water will show them the furnished room for the Passover.
Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51 - Jesus ascends into heaven.
Luke 2:13-14 - the angels praise Jesus' birth.
Luke 5:7; John 21:6 - Jesus directs the miraculous catch of fish.
Luke 24:31 - Jesus has the ability to vanish out of sight.
John 2:9 - Jesus changes water into wine.
John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred in Rome around 67 A.D.
John 20:19,26 - Jesus has the ability to appear even when the doors are locked.
<b>V. Jesus Christ is Worshiped</b>
Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.
Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.
Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.
Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.
Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.
Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.
Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth's declaration "the Mother of my Lord" = the Mother of my God (Elizabeth used the word "Adonai" which means "Lord God").
Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.
John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him.
John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - abdulwalee - 03-25-2007
Quote::banghead:
I see the practice of self interpreting the bible is alive and well on Islam Message.
That is NOT what you see in my post I ask questions and cite from Christian scholars and give what is understood by Muslims... all that info you bring is Not an explanation to the simple question asked... :sleep2:
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - abdulwalee - 03-25-2007
Quote::banghead:Save all this cutting and pasting for one who cares to know this stuff Answer the question dont give a lot of text without the explanation of them. The bible is and never was an English book... so why are you bringing these texts as though you truly understand the speach of early scribs who tainted the bible a long time just stick to the discussion at hand Did Jesus claim he was Divine? or God himself? or even The Son of God?
I see the practice of self interpreting the bible is alive and well on Islam Message.
The primary issue is finally, not whether Jesus was divine, but whether he said that he was. Let us illustrate and then summarize the method of investigating the missionary's claim.
OVERSPECIFICATION
In the overspecified category we have such passages as John Chapter 6, John 3:16 and the tenth chapter of John. At 6:41 Jesus says: "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." In this chapter, he compares himself to the manna eaten by the Israelites in Moses' time. Quoting scripture he calls the manna "bread out of heaven", (Psalm 78:24). The vagueness in this argument is the fact that the Christian has not stated that he intends to make an exact parallel between Jesus and the manna: if one comes from heaven, so does the other. The information he has neglected involves the origin of the manna. Of course it was not prepared in heaven and then transported to earth. According to Numbers 11:9, it came from the same place as the dew. So a thought must be finished. If the Christian maintains that Jesus literally came out of the heaven where God lives, he forces a literal meaning from the words while allowing a figurative meaning for the same words in the case of the manna out of heaven.
John 3:16 is where the Christian says Jesus claimed status as not just a figurative son of God but as God's actual "only-begotten" son. Not all Bible translate the passage with this key word because some translators have seen the difficulty this causes. At Hebrews 11:17, the same Greek word is found in the original language. But in this place it refers to Isaac who was at no time, strictly speaking, Abraham's only-begotten son. In the case of Isaac the Church explains that "only-begotten" is not to be understood strictly but must he modified. However, no such modification is allowed in the case of John 3:16 when it is over-specified as being literally true. In the tenth chapter of John we read about the Jews trying to stone Jesus and saying that he had made himself equal to God. The Christian agrees with the Jews and overlooks Jesus' reply. He proceeds to tell them that their own scriptures refer to certain evil men as "gods". Therefore, he argued that it was even more appropriate that one actually sent by God should be called a "son of God". He had also said that it was appropriate to call a peacemaker a "son of God" (Matthew 5:9). The Jews and Christians overspecify his words when they insist that he has claimed divinity. There is another poorly conceived argument which is related to this. Where the Jews have understood Jesus to blaspheme - i.e. claim divine authority - the Christian says he has proof that Jesus did claim divinity. The incorrect assumption however, is that the Jews understood Jesus. For example, they understood him to seize divine authority when he told a man that his sins were forgiven (Mark 2). But the verse at John 12:49, among others, shows that Jesus denied any personal initiative. He spoke only what God commanded him to say.
THE MESSIAH
Still more badly thought through is an argument based on common Christian misunderstanding. Muslims agree that Jesus was "the Messiah". Although modern Bible translations hide the fact, many individuals are called "Messiah" in the Bible. Christians have come to believe that there is a connotation of divinity in the word, however. So when they read that Jesus admitted to being the Messiah and the Jewish High Priest declared it blasphemy, they feel that they have still more proof that Jesus claimed divinity. The High Priest could only protest what he thought was a lie - a slander against God. The Jews were awaiting the Messiah. Were they also ready to kill the first man who said that he was the Messiah because such a claim is blasphemous?
TWICE SOLD
In the "twice sold" category, we have verses like John 10:30 and 14:9. The first one reads: "I and the Father are one." The Christian leaves vague exactly what this sentence itself leaves vague: one what? The overlooked information is found in the Seventeenth Chapter of John where the same idea occurs more than once and includes the disciples of Jesus in this oneness. (See John 17:11, 21-22). The thought that should be finished is this: If Jesus meant to say that being "one" means being divine then are the disciples also divine in the same sense as Jesus since the same expression includes them? As it happens the phrase has been sold twice. The Seventeenth Chapter verses are quoted in support of unity of purpose while the Tenth Chapter verse is used to support the claim that Jesus announced his Godhood.
This will keep you busy for awaile... <b>Good day</b>. so we can help people who really want to know the truth.
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Curious Christian - 03-25-2007
You aren't asking questions. You are taking your borrowed "proofs" that Jesus isn't God (he is) and acting like they are your own thoughts. Boring quite frankly.
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - abdulwalee - 03-26-2007
Quote:You aren't asking questions. You are taking your borrowed "proofs" that Jesus isn't God (he is) and acting like they are your own thoughts. Boring quite frankly.
This Information is from a very knowledgable person who use to be a Priest but left that falsehood and became a Muslim, Wal-Hamdullilah. and now he travels all ove the world calling to Islam, but when people first see him they think he's with them... than he begins his talk and at least 2 people become muslim afterwards... And Allah is the changer of the hearts.... You're Dumb-struck yeah... It's ok... I'm praying that the time you spend in islam message forum. wont be a waste of time I got plenty of these to keep you busy....
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Curious Christian - 03-26-2007
I am only "dumb struck" by your vanity.
You offer no rebuttall to the mountain of biblical evidence that I produced. You retort with, "This former Priest is now Muslim..." So what? Have any idea how many Muslims convert to Christianity every day?
When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness Jesus said Satan, ""It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test." Why would Jesus...a man say, "Don't tempt the Lord your God." Wouldn't he, if he were only a man say, "Don't tempt me." If I was tempted by somebody I wouldn't say, "Don't tempt God!"
Etc. etc. etc.
The foundation on which I stand is strong. It was there hundreds of years before Mohammed and it will last through the ages.
The Quran is full of instances which I could easily pull which would paint your messanger to be something horrible. But I wouldn't do that because it would not be academically honest.
May you should give Jesus the honor He deserves. Your worship.
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Faith Hope Charity - 03-26-2007
Glory to the Word made Flesh.
May the Peace of Our Lord & Saviour, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, be with you.
It's obvious no Muslim around here is truly seeking understanding, the goal is to stump us - Good luck!!!
Although my biblical interpretations usually fall on deaf ears, I'll just make a few points about the verses you mentioned, Abdul, & hopefully we can move on to the next ones until we've gone through the entire Bible from cover to cover & you discover that we intend on remaining faithful followers of Christ forever.
Quote:Jesus said:"He who believes in the son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36); are you not under the wrath of God for not being a follower of Christ - a Christian, by belief?
It wasn't actually Jesus who uttered those words. The passage follows on from a dialogue St John the Baptist was having with his disciples. The text is not in inverted commas, therefore, we can assume it's the Evangelist, St John, who brings us this message of hope. If you read the preceding verses, you'll be astonished at the reference made to the Most Holy Trinity.
The above verse (v36) is basically saying that with faith comes obedience. The opposite of faith is not just disbelief but disobedience too, which leads to sin & a loss of life.
Quote:On the subject of Belief in Christ, Jesus asked his disciples; "But who do you say that I am? And Peter answered and said, "The Christ of God." (Luke 9:20). Peter did not say God or a god.
You're right! Peter acknowledged Jesus to be Christ - the promised Messiah. Straight after this event in verse 28, Jesus Christ is transfigured before His Apostles, with the voice of the Father coming out of the cloud (Holy Spirit) declaring that Christ is "My Son" - another manifestation of the Most Holy Trinity.
Quote:"...Thy holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint,..." (Acts 4:27 - New American Standard Bible). This leaves no room for doubt that Jesus was a `Servant of God'. Besides, there are other verses which declare Jesus; God's Servant.
Jesus actually served us as well as His Father (are you still breathing?). The verse which you chopped in half, is part of a prayer the Apostles recited after being set free by the council. Please refer to Psalms 2:1-2 & 146.6 for a clearer understanding.
Quote:"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24 Have I believed and placed my trust basically, fundamentally and predominately in Him or in Jesus?
The Most Holy Trinity is staring you right in the face, yet you're blind as a bat!!! I'll just paste the above verse in its proper context & hopefully it'll make sense to you...
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
<b>24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. </b>
25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
27 and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
Quote:Jesus said; "But I do not seek my glory; there is One who seeks and judges." John 8:51. Who is this "One", who is not Jesus? Have you basically, essentially and fundamentally glorified the "One" or Jesus? Please remember, the "One" will be the Judge on the Day of Judgement and not Jesus. If you disbelieve or disobey the above word of Jesus please read the verse quoted by you and then think about the "wrath of God".
Abdul, you're as bad as the Pharisees :lol:
Why do you insist on copying & pasting rather than studying Scripture yourself? You're trying to make a fool out of us but the joke's on you & your apologist buddy... I'm sorry to say. Please read your chosen verse within its proper boundaries. Again, it speaks of Christ's divinity.
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
46 Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
47 He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
48 The Jews answered him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
49 Jesus answered, "I have not a demon; but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me.
<b>50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it and he will be the judge. </b>
51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death."
52 The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, as did the prophets; and you say, `If any one keeps my word, he will never taste death.'
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?"
<b>54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. </b>
55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
57 The Jews then said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.
I'd like to stay & deal with your other post, but I have a million essays to write for Uni. I'll drop in later this week for part 2.
CC, are you like me... do you weep over the amount of lies & lack of truth being fed to Muslims about The Faith?
Abdul, it's one thing to be offered poison, but it's another to swallow it up then spit it back in our faces. No one's asking you to attend Mass on Sunday's, but please, lift the veil off your eyes. You're trying to convince us that 1+1=5. This stuff is basic. Fundamental. Christianity 101. Open the Bible (& Catechism) & do the Maths yourself, dude!
Anyways guys... take care & God bless you both.
<i>Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality</i>
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - abdulwalee - 03-26-2007
Abdul, it's one thing to be offered poison, but it's another to swallow it up then spit it back in our faces. No one's asking you to attend Mass on Sunday's, but please, lift the veil off your eyes. You're trying to convince us that 1+1=5. This stuff is basic. Fundamental. Christianity 101. Open the Bible (& Catechism) & do the Maths yourself, dude!
Anyways guys... take care & God bless you both.
<i>Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality</i>
It is quite unfortunate that you're wasting your time in a Muslim forum, You will not find converts here, Insha'Allah. I have no need for the Bible nor studying it... asumptions, conjecture, and falsehoods is what you bring from your bible. Allah Say " <b>They have No Knowledge nor did their Fathers, All they bring is conjecture" </b> The bible which has been corupted long before you steped on this earth. Go and research historically about the council of nacia, Paul. and all the other conjecture you bring from your english text. You will never be able to argue your case in front of Allah. and on the Day of Standing Jesus will be your enemy for your worship of him, If you die upon this polytheism or worst you will be punished in the fire for calling on Jesus(peace be on him) him along with Allah. original sin, trinity, sonship, and all the other pagen concepts you've adopted in your faith and calling it From God, and trying to convince Who that it's a faith worth looking into..... The fight is old as the Americas... You lost a long time ago...... And if you were a person who sincerly seeks the truth and not a fight I would treat you with a little more respest, but you're not. your a <b>Kaafir</b> creating Mischief amoungst the believers.. So you keep your faith and To me be mind There is no discorse if There is No Understanding and respect. My hope is not to interact with you again at all.
Good Day
Let get into the beliefs of the Christians - Curious Christian - 03-26-2007
Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. :hello_kitty_sm_03: