Bismillah:
The three things are existence, knowledge & will. For I can say that I am, I know & I will. I am a being which knows & wills. I know both that I am & that I will. I will both to be & to know. In these three - being, knowledge & will - there is one inseparable life. One life. One mind. One essence. Therefore, although they are distinct from one another, the distinction does not separate them. This must be plain to anyone who has the ability to understand it.
One life, one mind one essence!! beautiful, but as soon as the life is gone, the mind and essence will automatically die as well. So are you saying that when Jesus was crucified and died (according to Christians), are you telling me that God the father and the holy spirit are also died? Of course not, then the above example does not apply in anyway to the Trinity that Father , son and holy ghost are one and the same.
This is a mystery that none can explain, & which of us would presume to assert that he can?
(St Augustine 354-430 AD)
no one can explain, means no one really can understand it, and yet you just believe in it without certain knowledge. St Augustine was honest enough to say that and so I will respect what you believe but at least we have reached to the point that Trinity is beyond understanding.
The Council of Florence in 1442 could therefore state, "These Three Persons are One God, because the Three are One Substance, One Essence, One Nature, One Divinity, One Immensity, One Eternity... in God everything is one & the same, where there is no opposition of relation".
(Pope John Paul II 1985)
This will take us into another trap, that if these three persons are one essence, One Nature, and one divinity, then all of them must have died the moment the son was crucified. <b>Or else you cannot call them One nature, one essence and one divinity</b>
Wael, the Bride of Christ (Church) would never betray her Spouse. We don't invent teachings that go against Scripture. I honestly don't like using the Bible as a weapon or tool to prove anything but here are a few verses that the Church draws on to understand the mystery of the Most Holy & Blessed Trinity.
Let's see.
St Matthew 16:16
This verse is talking about Jesus being son of God, <b>NOT THAT FATHER, SON AND HOLY GHOST ARE ONE</b>… A N D this verse <b>was not spoken by Jesus</b>, here is my statement once again.
“Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never spoke about ‘trinity’- that father, son and Holy Ghost were one”
Mathew 28:18-20.
If President G.W Bush has sent his representative to Iran with those words "Go ye therefore, and speak to the Iranians, chastising them in the name of the United States, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union," <b>does this require that these three countries are one country</b>? They may be one in <i>purpose</i> and in their <i>goals </i> but this does in no way require that they are the same physical entity. And what does my statement say??
St Mark 1:1; 1:11.
Ok those 2 verses are speaking about Jesus being the son of God, <b>not only Jesus pbuh who was called son of God in the Bible</b>; there are dozen of other sons of God mentioned in the Bible. Plus, <b>those words were not spoken by Jesus himself</b>, please check my statement carefully.
“Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never spoke about ‘trinity’- that father, son and Holy Ghost were one”
St Luke 1:55;
Not about Trinity being one !!!
Luke 1:68
Again <b>those words were not spoken by Jesus</b>, what really concern me the most is what Jesus pbuh himself said.
St John 14:26
Its about the Holy Spirit that will come after Jesus, never said that both (together with the Father) are one.
John15:26
Same as above…
John10:25-39
The words that jesus speak of the father’s name they bear witness of him being a man of God, his followers are those who follow his words… <b>there is no mention about Father, son and holy ghost being one here. Not at all.</b>
Acts of the Apostles 9:20.
1 Corinthians 2:11.
Galatians 1:15-16; 4:4-5; 4:6.
<b>none of these verses are the words of Jesus pbuh</b>… and so I will repeat my statement one more time.
“Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never spoke about ‘trinity’- that father, son and Holy Ghost were one”
Hmmm... humour me... which verse are you taking out of context now
I guess you know it well. You just quoted this same verse on the other thread of ‘comparison’.... but out of context?!!!!! I don’t think so, its just crystal clear FHC, he can do <b>nothing</b> of his own, and nothing means nothing… I don’t know if in Australia they’ve got any different meaning for this innocent word <b>‘nothing’ </b> :D
I believe you. Please provide a further explanation though. Here are the verses... I've excluded the texts because I don't own a good translation of the Koran... Sura 17:90-93, Sura 17:59, Sura 13:7, Sura 6:124, Sura 6:37, Sura 2:118-119.
Come on, you are a native Arabic speaking person and you don’t own the original text of the Qur’an?
However, you must first understand that the Islamic understanding of the concept of miracles can be best explained through the linguistic meaning of the word. In the Qur'an, the term used to denote a miracle is "ayah". This can be roughly translated into English as "sign", or "a sign given by God to a prophet in order to show his truthfulness and become one aspect or manifestation of his claim."
Therefore, Muslims believe that prophets can perform miracles in the sense that prophets have signs that "prove" their prophethood.
Examples of these abound in the Qur'an. In the story of Abraham, for instance, when Abraham's people try to burn him, God orders the fire to be cool and not to burn him:
[They said, "Burn him and protect your gods, If ye do (anything at all)!" We said, "O Fire! be thou cool, and (a means of) safety for Abraham!"]
(Qur’an 21:68-69)
Although this event can never be explained scientifically, Muslims do believe that this happened and that the Prophet Abraham pbuh came out of the fire safe.
The Qur'an also relates instances of miracles such as the Prophet Moses splitting the sea and saving himself and the Israelites from Pharaoh, the virgin birth of the Prophet Jesus, and the birth of John the Baptist despite the advanced age of his parents.
The Qur'an itself is referred to as the perpetual miracle of the Prophet Muhammad.
<b>However, not every prophet had a miracle. The ones who did, the Qur'an clarifies, did not perform or produce these miracles by themselves. Rather, they were given the miracles by God.</b>
[…it was not (possible) for any messenger to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah…]
(Qur’an 40:78)
In addition to this distinction, the Qur'an points out that not everyone would be attracted to even the more "stunning" miracles. These people would reject the message of the prophet in totality.
The Prophet Muhammad himself was repeatedly asked to perform miracles.
[They say: "We shall not believe in you, until you cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth,"Or (until) you have a garden of date trees and vines, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst, carrying abundant water;"Or you cause the sky to fall in pieces, as you sayest (will happen), against us; or you bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face "Or you have a house adorned with gold, or you mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in your mounting until you send down to us a book that we could read."]
(Al-Israa' 17:90-93)
The answer to this, is as God points out in the Qur'an, for Muhammad, whose miracle was the Qur'an itself, to point out his own reality.
[say: "Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- a messenger?"]
(Al-Israa' 17:93)
This is exactly similar to the claim that was made by the Jews if you remeber when they ask Jesus to perform miracles or to show them ‘a sign’ to prove that he was the Christ? if What did he do? Did he walk on the water or caused them to die then raised them back to life as a proof of his claim? No no, he acted very strongly and said to them “an evil and adulteress generation seeketh after a sign? For there is no sign shall be given into it, except the sign of Jonah…” he pointed out only to this sign to prove to them that he was the Christ. Will that make us understand that he did not perform miracles?
But in case you are looking for miracles performed by Prophet Muhammad pbuh from the Qur’an, you may refer to the follwing verses:
<b>1. Living miracle: The Holy Qur'an (2:23) (17:88) (52:34)</b>
2. Human miracle: he changed people's hearts (5:83)
3. Heavenly miracle: Isra' and Mi'raj (17:1) (53:8-18)
4. Historic miracle: Hijra; escaped while surrounded (9:40)
5. The miracle of the Battle of Badr: Victory against all odds (3:123-125)
6. The splitting of the moon (54:1-2)
And on and on…
Yes... by the Grace of God. He lived in Morocco for a few years & was majorly exposed to Islam. He doesn't have anything against Muslims, he just can't make sense of the religion.
Now you may inform him that Prophet Muhammad pbuh did perform miracles and some of them are mentioned in the Qur’an.
Mohammad (PBUH) never taught the doctrine of Tarif. According to Mohammad (PBUH) we are to obey the Torah & Gospel. Do you believe the Qur'an or not?
Are you asking me if I believe in the Qur’an or not? did you lost your mind recently hehehe (only kidding) :D
The Prophet never told us to <i>OBEY</i> the Torah and the Gospel, he taught us to believe that there were revelations sent to people before him called the Torah that of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus peace be upon them both.
The Church has preserved over 5000 different manuscripts of various books contained in the Bible that date as far back as the 1st Century AD, e.g. Chester Beatty Papyri, Bodmer Papyri, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, etc), & believe it or not, they completely match the Bible I use today.
No I heard something else more interesting, that the Church (I don’t know which one) is keeping about <b>24,000 ‘original’ manuscripts</b>; but guess what? Christian scholars have said that <b>NO TWO ARE IDENTICAL</b>, so how will you ever know which one is correct? and why those 'original manuscripts' are not available in the market their original language for us to verify whether they are really matching with today's Bible or not? and why Scholar of NT like Bart Ehrman who have studied those original scriptures and discovered that many verses in today's Bible are not to be found in the original manuscripts and so he gave up his faith and become Agnostic???
Salam for now and have a nice day.
Wael