01-12-2005, 05:08 PM
Quote:Thanks for your prompt reply.
No problem! Any time. :-)
Quote:Yes, you are right I believe that the Messiah does not have any father, but Christianity gives a double face on this, since you said that ''people assumed that Jesus' was Joseph's son''? So Joseph then let them believe that it was his son, is that what you are telling me? Ronniv, this is confusing, WHO is the true father of Messiah OR CREATOR as I know it?
1. First, remember also that King Herod at this time had heard that the Messiah had been born. He knew of some of the prophecies concerning him as well. So, for Joseph to go around telling everyone that Mary's baby was the miraculously-born, promised Messiah, he's practically inviting the King to come and kill the child before he even gets started in life.
2. Another point: Would you have preferred for Joseph to go out and tell the family and everyone else he met, "Hey, this isn't really my baby. My wife got pregnant before she and I came together, but it's okay because an angel came and told both of us that she would get preganant by the power of the Holy Spirit, so everything's fine." That doesn't seem like a necessary situation to put him or his new bride in.
3. Lastly, if you say that this is some sort of deception or "double-face", would you then accept the statement from me that I think it is deception on the part of Allah to fool everyone into thinking that Jesus died on the cross (including his own precious mother and all his closest followers) but never clear up the matter until 600 years later when Muhammad came on the scene? So all those thousands and thousands of Christians who had lost their lives - been martyred for their faith in Christ - would have died in vain because Christ never really died and thus was never resurrected. Would a loving and merciful God really let all those people be tricked for HUNDREDS of years?
To ME, that seems deceptive. I'm sure that you don't see it that way. Neither do I see my faith as deceptive. There was nothing good that could come of Joseph running around telling people that Jesus wasn't his son; people would probably have just thought he was crazy or that he had been mesmerized and fooled by Mary's lie that she "magically" got pregnant. And then, as I said before, that CERTAINLY would have attracted the attention of Herod who would have come after Jesus to kill Him.
The good that came from him NOT running his mouth and making his wife appear as a fornicator is that Christ was able to survive until it was time for His earthly mission.
There is nothing good that I can see from letting people think that Jesus died when He didn't. The bad is that thousands of people were deceived, died in their deception, and many were martyred based upon a lie that was prompted by Allah himself and never corrected for hundreds of years. Even now, there is no proof that Jesus didn't die on the cross, so it's STILL not cleared up. IMO, this is deception; not the issue of Joseph.
<b>ANOTHER EXAMPLE</b>
If my biological father divorced my mother while she was pregnant but then she married another man, are you saying that it is incumbent upon me, my mother and stepfather to make sure we tell all of our neighbors, friends, family, church members, co-workers, etc. that he's not my real dad? Do you consider it deception if WE DON'T go publicizing that information? Do you go around telling everybody your personal business?
I'm not meaning my questions in the last paragraph to be ugly or mean, but seriously... since when do people have to go around telling everybody they meet what's going on in their household? I don't see that as a law for any of us - Jew, Christian or Muslim.
Quote:I don't know if we are following the same thread here. IF Joseph pretends that the son is HIS, isn't that living on falsehood?
Why do you think it would be pretending?
It seems like you just WANT to find something wrong with the Christian story. How is he pretending? He just takes care of and helps raise Jesus just as normally as he does anything else. There's no need to put on a show.
Quote:I cannot see 'lying' or avoiding to tell the truth about fatherhood as a virtue - it doesn't make sense, I repeat that again, sorry.
But wait a minute.... On another thread, I saw several Muslims make the statement that if a woman commits adultery or fornication then she's okay as long as she doesn't do it in front of 4 witnesses and doesn't go confess to it. It was even affirmed by your prophet that it would be better for her NOT to say anything, thus she wouldn't be subject to the punishments according to Islamic law.
Now here is an actual <b>SIN</b> that took place and Islamically-speaking, the person should just never confess it openly.
In addition, according to some hadith I read before, your prophet Muhammad actually even condoned outright lying in about 3 or 4 circumstances.
But here Joseph is.... there's no sin involved, there's no blatant lying.... but you think that is not virtuous.
In Islam, one is encouraged TO NOT confess to sins they commit and in some instances, lying is even encouraged, yet you <b>don't</b> have a problem with that?
Now, I'm the one who is confused.