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Are American and European muslims more liberal?
#21

Salaam Alaikum!

Unlike the Sunnis, who base their understanding of Islam almost solely on the Qur'an and the oral traditions (and the legal precedents offered by the various schools of law), Shias believe in Living Law."

The “the oral traditions,” in conjunction with some non-Muslim sources, are where I derive my understanding of the Quran (not to mention, my personal translation). I reject the example (Shia) that you postulated because it founds itself upon dogmatic belief, not on history. Without the vehicle basis of Islamic tradition, we posses sententious information and interpretation on the Quran.

[To give an example, Jihad. The Anthropologist Talal Asad best elucidates my point:

To begin with, although the theory and practice of the crusade were closely connected with the rise of papal monarchy (and afterward, with the sacralization of territorially based kingship), there is no parallel story in the case of jihad. Because there is no centralized legal authority in the Islamic world, there is no consensus about the virtue of religious warfare. In the first two centuries of Islamic history jurists residing close to the sacred sites of Islam (in Mecca and Medina) held a different view from those who lived in Damascus and Baghdad, the successive imperial capitals. They maintained that jihad (being stationed at the frontier far from the original sites of Islam) was not an obligatory duty for all Muslims, that there was merely a requirement that some Muslims undertake the defense of Islamic territory, and that in any case other religious acts had greater merit. In later centuries the legal theory of jihad came to be articulated in the context of a distinction between dar ul-harb (the domain of war) and dar ul-Islam (the domain of Islam) making jihad appropriate to the former. But from very early on a third juridical category was established, called dar ul-'ahd (the domain of treaties), that allowed for peaceful trade and social intercourse between Muslim and non-Muslim territories. In colonial times a further reformulation of the doctrine of jihad took place: Muslims living under a non-Muslim government (and therefore technically in dar ul-harb) were not to undertake jihad as long as they were able to practice Islam and allowed to maintain its central institutions. It is true that Muslim rebels sometimes invoked jihad, but they were rarely supported in this by most Muslim jurists (as in the recent attempt by Osama bin Laden to appropriate the ideology of jihad in his war against America). For the legal preconditions of jihad--it has been repeatedly pointed out--must include both the presence of a genuine threat to Islam as well as the likelihood of success in opposing it. ]

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#22



Quote:naseeha --Wow.  Such a strong reaction!  No, even though I do not ascribe to most of their beliefs, I don't think the Shia are a misguided people, anymore so than Sunnis are.  Who am I to judge?  I've known enough Shias in my time and enough Sunnis to believe that both peoples are sincere in their faith, so I am content to leave it to God to be the arbiter of who is right and who is wrong.  I'm just worried about teaching myself and trying to approach my faith as honestly as I can.
your previous post was madness...

now you are putting the shia' and the sunni in the same bracket...

Khairan i honestly think that you have gone crazy...

(astagh)

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#23




Quote:Salaam Alaikum!The “the oral traditions,” in conjunction with some non-Muslim sources, are where I derive my understanding of the Quran (not to mention, my personal translation). I reject the example (Shia) that you postulated because it founds itself upon dogmatic belief, not on history. Without the vehicle basis of Islamic tradition, we posses sententious information and interpretation on the Quran.
Considering this ibn... what do you think about Khairan's saying

Quote:I consider myself a Shia for political reasons and because of my take on history
I agree with you for on the point of dogmatic belief...

as for the belief in the <i>“the oral traditions,”</i> (I assume we are referring to the sunnah) what could be for pragmatic?? :confused: these traditions are in fact everything that the prophet said did and/or approved of.

this is as opposed to the approach to islam where things are done ignoring the sunnah (not only interperation of the quraan)... when something occurs outside the scope of the sunnah there is no confirmation of it's validity...

there can be only one truth...

this can only come from the one who THE ALL KNOWING has sent down with it...

NOT AN IMAM...

how could one NOT follow the sunnah and be called a muslim...

how...

If they do then they will no doubt perform their actions based upon either their own desires... or dogmatic principles that has not and been called the truth by the prophet (s.a.w.s).

if someone does this... then he will perform actions that would seem to be truthful by his own logic... when in fact it is not ...

Islam is the most practical deen that there is. Shia distortions fall squarely in the same category of dogma that the christians fall into.

may allah protect us from this evil...

may allah guide all those who distort our deen...

and may allah protect us from their preachings...

and for those who are obstinate in their actions.... may they get their fitting reward...

AMEEN!!!

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#24

Quote:when something occurs outside the scope of the sunnah there is no confirmation of it's validity...
And herein is the problem with the Sunni/Shia divide. The Shias have ahadith which support all of their beliefs, just as the sunnis do. In this regard, Ibn is wrong. Shia beliefs DO have historical basis in the oral traditions. It just happens that sunnis don't accept the shia body of tradition, and the shia don't accept the sunni body.
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#25



Quote:The Shias have ahadith which support all of their beliefs, just as the sunnis do
Produce ONE hadith to support the coming of an imam to abrogate the quraan and the sunnah...

JUST ONE

Quote:It just happens that sunnis don't accept the shia body of tradition, and the shia don't accept the sunni body.
What is the shia yardstick for the authencity of hadith...

or do you do things haphazardly....

laa howla wa laa quwwata illah billah

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#26



Quote:Produce ONE hadith to support the coming of an imam to abrogate the quraan and the sunnah...JUST ONE
Sadly, I only own collections of sunni hadith, and so I can't produce one. But, I know they exist -- I believe it is what the Aga Khanis base their current practice on. Read something of what Farhad Daftary has to say about the Shia, perhaps that will explain it to you.
Quote:What is the shia yardstick for the authencity of hadith...

or do you do things haphazardly....

laa howla wa laa quwwata illah billah
The shia yardstick is the same as the sunni yardstick -- chain of transmission. Shias just depend on different transmitters; many of their ahadith pass through Jafar asSadiq, and almost all of them are transmitted from Ali ibn Abi Talib.
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#27



Quote:I can't produce one.  But, I know they exist
How do you know they exist...

come on man...

Produce your proof when you say things...

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#28



Quote:How do you know they exist...come on man...

Produce your proof when you say things...
Well, like I said, I've read about them. And, since I don't have "proof" by way of hadith, I have referred you to Farhad Daftary who writes about shias quite a bit, especially his text on the Ismailis. If you are curious, you can probably find the answers you're looking for there. Or, look into Aga Khani doctrine. Anyway, I don't put much stock into ahadith; whether they are "verified" or not, the truth of the oral traditions is questionable at best. I try not to base my beliefs solely on the evidence of the traditions.Also, I don't actually know to what degree your average shia realizes this is a belief -- from what I have read this is more an esoteric tenet of the faith that one encounters if reading more involved history, rather than something one is taught in school. And, as I said in my original post, SOME shias believe this. I don't know how many of the different shia groups hold this belief -- the Ismailis do, but it is possible for instance that the Ithna Ashiri do not.

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#29

I would repeat what i said above....

The shia is a misguided people... dont you get it...

Are you aware that this forum is comprised of sunnis... please when someone who is not a muslim asks for advice... DO NOT PRODUCE SHIA DOCTRINES... DO NOT... COME ON MAN...

AT LEAST HAVE SOME RESPECT....

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#30



Quote:I would repeat what i said above....The shia is a misguided people... dont you get it...

Are you aware that this forum is comprised of sunnis... please when someone who is not a muslim asks for advice... DO NOT PRODUCE SHIA DOCTRINES... DO NOT... COME ON MAN...

AT LEAST HAVE SOME RESPECT....
Sorry, I missed the sign on the door that said "No Shias allowed." [Image: rolleyes.gif]I am not a sunni, I am not a shia. I know something of the beliefs of both, and when people ask what ISLAM is, the answer should be comprehensive, and they SHOULD appreciate that Muslims do not all believe the same things.

salaam

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