“The true Furqan”

[reepicheep]

<b>wel_mel_2 wrote: you have come to enlighten me that actually ALL CHRISTIANS are liars (of course that includes St Paul, Peter...)</b>



Yes, that is correct. In fact, according to the bible, at one point in his life Paul helped hunt down and kill Christians.


<b>wel_mel_w wrote: That was straight enough to send St Paul, Peter and all the disciples of Jesus to eternal damnation
</b>


Yes, all Christians (including Paul and Peter) deserve eternal damnation.


<b>Wel_Mel_2 wrote:... now I wonder if you keep any statistics about the above claim that 100% of Christians are liars, do you have evidence that every Christian ever lived, currently living and that will be born is a liar, a thief and a murderer????</b>



There is no need for me to keep any statistics. That is what Jesus says in the bible, and since I believe that Jesus is God, I'm not about to disagree with him.


<b>Wel_mel_2 wrote: Have you ever for instance murdered somebody before to make such a statement? </b>



Using the definition of "murder" as given by Jesus, yes I have committed murder. Many times, in fact.


<b>Wel_mel_2 wrote: Or does the words “EVERY CHRISTIAN” in your language means something else???</b>



It appears to mean exactly what you think it means.


<b>Wel_mel_2 wrote: We don’t claim to be sinless, but I can guarantee you that all Muslims on this board, are not thieves, and not murderers, they might have lied in the past, but at least now they are NOT</b>



Are there any muslims here on this forum who claim to have never told a lie, during the entire time they were muslims?


<b>wel_mel_2 wrote: May Allah open your heart to Islam and save you from eternal damnation for being a Christian.
</b>


You are contradicting the koran. According to the koran, Christians, Jews and Sabians go to heaven, not hell. That is what Shiite Twelver muslims tell me, anyway. And at least some Sunni muslims believe this, too.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Reepi, I think again you are doing the same thing, which is posting irrelevant posts. Do you have any input to make regarding this forged Quran that was produced and introduced by Christains, pls do. Otherwise, certainly you are free to discuss those issues which I can hardly come up with a title for on any other thread.


And no I dont think, and I m not talking on behalf of us all, but none of us is sinless. I will just respond to this here. Actually, being a Muslim is to make choices between halal and haram and take responsibility. Then use the blessed gate Jennifer mentioned before repentence which is granted thru one of Allah's Names and Attributes. We dont wait for someone to come and sacrifice for us in order to cleanse us from our sins.

[radiyah]

Bismillah

wel_mel_2 wrote: May Allah open your heart to Islam and save you from eternal damnation for being a Christian.
You are contradicting the koran. According to the koran, Christians, Jews and Sabians go to heaven, not hell. That is what Shiite Twelver muslims tell me, anyway. And at least some Sunni muslims believe this, too.

Since Wae'l is contradicting the Quran, and since u beleive that The Holy Quran said jews sabians and christians go to heaven, then you are counting on The Quran to save you from Hell and not counting on your Bible, then what is the use of you being a christian Reep ????????????????


Now to come to that verse that the Shiite Twelver muslims tell you Please follow this Link, because I don' want to change the subject of this post to something else:


http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4715


Peace

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Jazaki Allah khairan Radiyah,


Reepi, it occured to me to ask you what are exactly discussing on this thread, given the main reason for it, I really would like to know, what exactly is the point that you are discussing, provided of course that you want to respond to me. [/b]Otherwise no problem.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


reepi, also go to:


http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=2491&st=0


http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=1729&hl=


Those two links fully discuss the same topic that Radiyah patiently made a thorough post about it. You will be surprised reepi to find that you were also active on the second like. Still go visit and refresh your memory.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum...


The Catholic Church confirmed that Reep's words are actually true (i.e. <b>that ALL CHRISTIANS including those who penned the Bible are liars</b>) and so the Bible itself is not reliable, it is simply the product of some liars.





Salam


Wael.

[reepicheep]

<b>wel_mel_2 wrote: ...the challenge of Allah: “If you are in doubt about it, bring a book like it”</b>



I don't know of any such challenge in the koran, although it may be in there somewhere. Verse 17:88 does state that the combined efforts of all the people and jinn would be unable to write a book like the koran, but there is nothing in that verse about a challenge.


But there are some other verses which talk about a challenge. Verse 11:13 challenges people to write ten suras. And, verses 2:23 and 10:38 challenge people to write one sura.


This discrepancy leads to the following interesting question:


<i><b>How many suras does a non-muslim have to write, before the challenge is met?</b></i>


If, for example, I wrote 5 suras just as good as the suras in the koran, then verses 2:23 and 10:38 could be used to show that I have met and exceeded the challenge. But, at the same time, according to verse 11:13 I would not have met the challenge.


Personally, I think it should be sufficient to write a single Arabic phrase which is just as beautiful as the words of the koran. For, if I can write one phrase, then I can write several phrases and combined them together into a verse. And, if I can complete a single verse, then I could write many verses and combine them together into a sura. And, if I could write one sura, then I could write many suras and combine them together into a book.


So, then, what have the Christian writers of "The True Furqan" done? They weren't content with writing one sura or ten suras. They wrote 77 suras, and a Blessing and an Epilogue, and combined them together into a book. In fact, by calling the book "The True Furqan", they are leaving no doubt that they wrote the book in response to the challenges in the koran. They have even gone so far as to give some of their suras the same names as the suras in the koran.


For example, sura 24 in "The True Furqan" is named Al-Nisa (Women), the same as sura 4 in the koran. In doing so, the writers of "The True Furqan" are challenging muslims to compare the two suras to see which is more beautiful. More importantly, they are claiming that the treatment of women as described in the bible is better than the treatment of women as described in the koran.


**************


My observations about the various comments muslims have made about "The True Furqan" within this thread:


(1) The koran clearly challenges non-muslims to write suras. I find it interesting that muslims would show such outrage that some christians have taken up the challenge.


(2) Any muslim who is "fooled" into thinking that "The True Furqan" is the book revealed by Mohammad certainly doesn't know very much about Islam.

[reepicheep]

<b>wel_mel_2 wrote: ...that ALL CHRISTIANS including those who penned the Bible are liars</b>



True. Christians believe that all people, including those who wrote parts of the bible, are sinners and liars.


<b>wel_mel_2 wrote: and so the Bible itself is not reliable, it is simply the product of some liars.</b>



False. Christians believe that the people who wrote the bible were inspired by God, and that therefore the bible is true.


**************


(Jesus, who was both man and God, is of course the one exception to the rule. Christians believe that Jesus was without sin.)

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo ALikum.


<b>reepicheep</b>

Christians believe that the people who wrote the bible were inspired by God, and that therefore the bible is true.

Let me just remind you that the people who penned the Bible (<b>i.e. the liars</b>) are the same people who told you that it is inspired by God, <b>then how can you rely on liars anyway?<i> unless you yourself is a liar</i> </b>, If a liar swore in a court of law that he does not lie, the Judge will ask him to produce his evidence, and so far, <b>the evidences provided by the authors of the Bible are enough to prove that those words are not related to God in any way</b>. (<i>we can discuss this matter in details on separate thread if you wish</i>)

Jesus, who was both man and God, is of course the one exception to the rule. Christians believe that Jesus was without sin.)

Again, liars (i.e. Christians) believe in something doesn't mean that this thing is true, because if you keep on telling lies and fooling people (i.e. try to convince people with falsehood), then later on you will also believe in your own lies.


<i>By the way: I am going to respond to your previous post about the challenge, just stay tuned...</i>


Salam


Wael.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.,


<b>'reepicheep' </b>

wel_mel_2 wrote: ...the challenge of Allah: “If you are in doubt about it, bring a book like it”
I don't know of any such challenge in the koran, although it may be in there somewhere. Verse 17:88 does state that the combined efforts of all the people and jinn would be unable to write a book like the koran, but there is nothing in that verse about a challenge.

Allah says: Or do they say, "He fabricated the (Message)"? Nay, they have no faith!


Let them <b>then produce a recital like unto it</b>,- If (it be) they speak the truth! Qur’an 52:33


Now comparing the beautiful prose and rhythms of the Qur’an with the ‘true furqan’, will simply cause us as Arabs to laugh to death (<i>I am not talking about the contents, this is yet another issue</i>), I am talking about how the sound would be to a native Arabic speaking person if we recite the verses of this forged book in the same way when we recite the original revealed Qur’an, and that’s why I advise you to get hold of Sheikh Ahmed Deedat’s lecture named “<b>How NOT to do Daw’ah</b>” where you will see how he exposed the faults of this book and other materials produced by Christians in great details.

But there are some other verses which talk about a challenge. Verse 11:13 challenges people to write ten suras. And, verses 2:23 and 10:38 challenge people to write one sura.
This discrepancy leads to the following interesting question:


How many suras does a non-muslim have to write, before the challenge is met?


If, for example, I wrote 5 suras just as good as the suras in the koran, then verses 2:23 and 10:38 could be used to show that I have met and exceeded the challenge. But, at the same time, according to verse 11:13 I would not have met the challenge.


Personally, I think it should be sufficient to write a single Arabic phrase which is just as beautiful as the words of the koran. For, if I can write one phrase, then I can write several phrases and combined them together into a verse. And, if I can complete a single verse, then I could write many verses and combine them together into a sura. And, if I could

there is no contradiction here, the challenge made by Allah at first was to produce a book like the Qur’an in its beautiful language, because the Arabs at that time knew that the words of the Qur’an can never be the production of a man, and so they failed miserably with their eloquence of the Arabic language at that time, then Allah made the challenge even easier, He asked them to produce 10 chapters like that of the Qur’an, they also couldn’t, then produce one chapter like it (<i>the smallest chapter is only 3 verses</i>), still no way to meet that challenge because <b>they know its too good that they couldn't even think that there will be anyone to utter such words like that, this by itself was a miracle.</b>


To answer your question I would say that you are or anyone else required to produce a single chapter like that of the Qur’an and then call upon your witnesses to testify that you have met the challenge, its not a matter of just putting some Arabic words together to produce an Arabic sound.

So, then, what have the Christian writers of "The True Furqan" done?

They have stolen the titles of the ORIGINAL QUR’AN TO FOOL THE MUSLIMS, that is exactly what they’ve done, they could not come up with beautiful words to name their false chapters because they themselves knew that it is too hard to do so, but at the same times they understood that AL FATIHA, ANISSA' and so on are familiar terms for the Muslims, and so they wanted to catch the fish with false baits... this is what exactly they've done, an expected attitude from liars according to your own admition.

For example, sura 24 in "The True Furqan" is named Al-Nisa (Women), the same as sura 4 in the koran. In doing so, the writers of "The True Furqan" are challenging muslims to compare the two suras to see which is more beautiful. More importantly, they are claiming that the treatment of women as described in the bible is better than the treatment of women as described in the koran.

We all can make claims, but its too difficult for them to answer questions when we quote biblical verses concerning the very poor treatment of women as found in the Bible, we may discuss this matter in great details on separate thread if you wish...

My observations about the various comments muslims have made about "The True Furqan" within this thread:
(1) The koran clearly challenges non-muslims to write suras. I find it interesting that muslims would show such outrage that some christians have taken up the challenge.

We admit, that they’ve tried to meet Allah’s challenge, but as we have also indicated (<b>and we can still prove further</b>) that they’ve failed miserably, and <b>you</b> can’t prove otherwise simply because you don't read or understand Arabic.

(2) Any muslim who is "fooled" into thinking that "The True Furqan" is the book revealed by Mohammad certainly doesn't know very much about Islam.

neither the 'true furqan' nor the original Qur'an was revealed by Muhammad pbuh himself (it is not his words), the Qur'an was revealed by Allah to his last prophet pbuh and the true 'furqan' was written by liars in order to deceive innocent and ignorant people, and the best way to prove that Christians could not meet Allah's challenge is the impact of the Qur'an on the Muslims today and since 1400 years ago, and the <b>nothingness</b> that caused by this false book called the true furqan.


Salam


Wael.