Let get into the beliefs of the Christians

[Curious Christian]

You don't even address the passages myself or FHC posted which clearly demonstrated your ignorance.


PATHETIC>

[Faith Hope Charity]

May the Love of God the Father, the Grace of His only-begotten Son & the indwelling of the Holy Spirit be with you!


Salam Abdul!


It is quite unfortunate that you're wasting your time in a Muslim forum, You will not find converts here, Insha'Allah.



Wasting my time? I'm having a blast! You seem to be obsessed with the whole idea of converting/reverting. Catholicism strives on quality not quantity. The Church began with 12 Apostles & it was just as strong back then as it is now. You can come close, I won't bite, I promise ;)


I have no need for the Bible nor studying it... asumptions, conjecture, and falsehoods is what you bring from your bible.



What on earth possessed you to start this thread? Would you still like me to comment on post #4?


" They have No Knowledge nor did their Fathers, All they bring is conjecture"



Could you please state the source? Ta :thumb:


The bible which has been corupted long before you steped on this earth.



But Allah (SWT) handed down the Bible to us & His word can't change. The doctrine of Taref is corrupt in itself.


Go and research historically about the council of nacia, Paul. and all the other conjecture you bring from your english text.



I'm fairly knowledgeable about the Council of Nicea, St Paul & the English translation of Scripture. What would you like to talk about exactly?


You will never be able to argue your case in front of Allah. and on the Day of Standing Jesus will be your enemy for your worship of him, If you die upon this polytheism or worst you will be punished in the fire for calling on Jesus(peace be on him) him along with Allah. original sin, trinity, sonship, and all the other pagen concepts you've adopted in your faith and calling it From God, and trying to convince Who that it's a faith worth looking into.....



Whoa! Let's try to unpack this!


Jesus is God.


Jesus loves His enemies.


I'm not a polytheist.


I might be thrown into the fire but it won't be because I worship God.


I've discussed Original Sin with your fellow Muslims in the past & they offered no alternative, therefore, I'll stick with it for the time being (of course I'm totally kidding about the "time being" part ;)).


I'd rather die loving the Most Holy Trinity than live without knowing the mystery of God.


If you have issues with sonship, please take it up with the Son.


According to the Quran, Christians are "People of the Book" not Pagans, so where's all this nonsense coming from?


I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Why is it that whenever you don't receive the desired answers to your questions, you turn violent & destructive? You're scaring me. Please chill!


The fight is old as the Americas... You lost a long time ago......



You've lost me, Mate! I have no idea what you're talking about!


And if you were a person who sincerly seeks the truth and not a fight I would treat you with a little more respest, but you're not.



I'm not seeking either... I already have the truth & I strongly condemn fighting. Respecting me is your call.


your a Kaafir creating Mischief amoungst the believers..



:lol: I admit I'm a little cheeky but my intention certainly ain't to stir up trouble.


So you keep your faith



Okay thanks! By the Grace of God I shall.


To me be mind There is no discorse if There is No Understanding and respect. My hope is not to interact with you again at all.



As you wish :(


Good Day



Shukran! Same to you :)


Take care & God bless.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.


I am in :D

But Allah (SWT) handed down the Bible to us & His word can't change. The doctrine of Taref is corrupt in itself.

The Bible was not handed down by God, what we believe is that, whatever Moses and Jesus pbuh preached, that was from God, but the Bible that you are talking about was written by men and men were the ones to decide which books to be called <i>'scriptures'</i>. Muslims are not the ones who say that today’s Bible is not the pure word of God, even Christians scholars and learned men admitted this fact.

Jesus is God.

No he is not. And please don’t try to let me open my mouth again about this topic. :D

Jesus loves His enemies.

This idea is one of the most remarkable ideas ever presented, IF it was followed and practiced. And the reason why it was not followed, because it is totally unreasonable, in fact it is not even generally accepted. Most Christians consider banning "Love your enemy" thing because they believe that such teaching might be realized in some perfect world, but not in the actual world we live in. you do not normally practice it, do not expect others to practice it, and do not teach your kids to practice it. Jesus' most distinctive teaching, therefore, remains interesting but basically <b>UNPROVEN suggestion</b>.

I'm not a polytheist.

Maybe you are not, but you are imitating polytheists in your worship.

I might be thrown into the fire but it won't be because I worship God.

You worship God in a way that displeases Him, He already taught us <b>HOW</b> to worship Him, but you favored to follow some human beings instructions instead.

I'd rather die loving the Most Holy Trinity than live without knowing the mystery of God.

God Himself told you <b>NOT</b> to say Trinity.


Salam


Wael.

[abdulwalee]

<b>Every Person Knows about Tawhid</b>


This Ayah includes the People of the Book, the Jews and Christians, and those who follow their ways.


[قُلْ يأَهْلَ الْكِتَـبِ تَعَالَوْاْ إِلَى كَلِمَةٍ]


(Say: "O people of the Scripture! Come to a word'')


`Word' - in Arabic - also means a complete sentence, as evident from this Ayah. Allah described this word as being one,


[سَوَآءٍ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ]


(that is the same between us and you), an honest and righteous word that is fair to both parties. Allah then explained this word,


[أَلاَّ نَعْبُدَ إِلاَّ اللَّهَ وَلاَ نُشْرِكَ بِهِ شَيْئاً]


(that we worship none but Allah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him,) we worship neither a statue, cross, idol, Taghut (false gods), fire or anything else. Rather, we worship Allah Alone without partners, and this is the message of all of Allah's Messengers. Allah said,


[وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ نُوحِى إِلَيْهِ أَنَّهُ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ أَنَاْ فَاعْبُدُونِ ]


(And We did not send any Messenger before you but We revealed to him (saying): "None has the right to be worshipped but I (Allah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else).'') [21:25] and,


[وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِى كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَّسُولاً أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللَّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُواْ الْطَّـغُوتَ]


(And verily, We have sent among every Ummah a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghut (all false deities).'') [16:36]. Allah said next,


[وَلاَ يَتَّخِذَ بَعْضُنَا بَعْضًا أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ]


("and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah.'') Ibn Jurayj commented, "We do not obey each other in disobedience to Allah.''


[فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَقُولُواْ اشْهَدُواْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ]


(Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims.'') if they abandon this fair call, then let them know that you will remain in Islam as Allah has legislated for you.


We should mention that the letter that the Prophet sent to Heraclius reads, "In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. From Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, to Heraclius, Leader of the Romans: peace be upon those who follow the true guidance. Embrace Islam and you will acquire safety, embrace Islam and Allah will grant you a double reward. However, if you turn away from it, then you will carry the burden of the peasants, and,


[يأَهْلَ الْكِتَـبِ تَعَالَوْاْ إِلَى كَلِمَةٍ سَوَآءٍ بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ أَلاَّ نَعْبُدَ إِلاَّ اللَّهَ وَلاَ نُشْرِكَ بِهِ شَيْئاً وَلاَ يَتَّخِذَ بَعْضُنَا بَعْضًا أَرْبَابًا مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَقُولُواْ اشْهَدُواْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ]


("O people of the Scripture: Come to a word that is the same between us and you, that we worship none but Allah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah.'' Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims.'')''


Take care

[Faith Hope Charity]

All for the greater glory of God!

I am in :D

Ahla wa sahla :D

The Bible was not handed down by God, what we believe is that, whatever Moses and Jesus pbuh preached, that was from God, but the Bible that you are talking about was written by men and men were the ones to decide which books to be called <i>'scriptures'</i>. Muslims are not the ones who say that today’s Bible is not the pure word of God, even Christians scholars and learned men admitted this fact.

When was God's word changed & who has the power to change His word?


The Quran which originates in the 7th Century AD states that Allah (SWT) gave Jews the Torah (2:87) & Christians the Gospel (57:27). As we've previously discussed, the Bible I read today is identical to St Jerome's Vulgate translated in the 4th Century AD - over 300 years before Allah's (SWT) revelation to Muhammad (PBUH).


Christians & Jews may not live up to the word of God, but they most definitely can't change it!


By the way I didn't click on the link.

This idea is one of the most remarkable ideas ever presented, IF it was followed and practiced. And the reason why it was not followed, because it is totally unreasonable, in fact it is not even generally accepted. Most Christians consider banning "Love your enemy" thing because they believe that such teaching might be realized in some perfect world, but not in the actual world we live in. you do not normally practice it, do not expect others to practice it, and do not teach your kids to practice it. Jesus' most distinctive teaching, therefore, remains interesting but basically <b>UNPROVEN suggestion</b>.

Every word that comes of out Jesus Christ's mouth is remarkable :wub:


Those Christians who are considering banning Christ's commandment are dreaming! The only One who can ban the teaching is the One who invented it.


2 examples of Christianity in practice - JP2 paid his assassin a visit in prison & showed him compassion, mercy & forgiveness. The nun who was left for dead after the whole cartoon fiasco managed to utter, "I forgive, I forgive" right before she took her last breath :wub:


St Augustine once said, "love your enemies in the hope that they'll become your friend" :wub:


My heart is burning!

You worship God in a way that displeases Him, He already taught us <b>HOW</b> to worship Him, but you favored to follow some human beings instructions instead.


God Himself told you <b>NOT</b> to say Trinity.

Don't dwell too much on Christian beliefs & practices. We're not hurting Islam so it shouldn't bother you. Isn't there an Ayat that says something like, "You have your beliefs & I have yours"??? Why can't you just accept this? Please stop preaching your version of Christianity. I wasn't born yesterday.


Take it easy & God bless.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

When was God's word changed & who has the power to change His word?

First of all, God’s words that you are talking about were not written during the time of Moses and Jesus peace be upon them, people started to write down these so called God’s word hundreds of years after their prophets’ demise. And so if you study hard the stories of the scribes who <b>intentionally and unintentionally </b> changed the Bible, you will realize that what you are holding now in your hand is <b>NOT</b> God’s words.

The Quran which originates in the 7th Century AD states that Allah (SWT) gave Jews the Torah (2:87) & Christians the Gospel (57:27).

True, God Almighty gave the Torah to Moses pbuh, but if you read further using the same Qur’an, you will find that God clearly says that Muhammad pbuh was mentioned by name in the Torah as the final messenger of God, now open your OT and let me know where is Muhammad’s pbuh name??


It is also true that God gave the Injeel to Jesus Christ pbuh, but He also mentioned in the same Qur'an that Jesus pbuh in his Gospel told his disciples about the glad tiding of a prophet to come after him and his name shall be Ahmed, now you open your NT and let me which verse refer to our beloved Prophet pbuh as Ahmed, and if you cant find his name, <b>then the Bible that you are reading now is NOT God’s word</b>.

As we've previously discussed, the Bible I read today is identical to St Jerome's Vulgate translated in the 4th Century AD - over 300 years before Allah's (SWT) revelation to Muhammad (PBUH).

But the Bible you are reading now is just <i>a copy </i> which was copied from another copy, and that copy was copied from another copy and so on… you got endless copies but no original…

Christians & Jews may not live up to the word of God, but they most definitely can't change it!

Why not? God in the Bible promised those who try to tamper His words to face hell fire, <b>because He knew that it was going to happen</b>. He gave Jews and Christians a chance and they simply blew it!. Today, <b>there is no one accurate Bible</b>!. Look at the Qur’an 5:13 it says "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; <b>they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of;</b> and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."
on the other hand, God Almighty in the Quran did promise that He will personally guard the Quran from corruption. <b>He never promised hell fire to anyone who tries to tamper His words in Quran, because He knew for sure that no one will ever be able to do so</b>.


"We (Allah) have, without a doubt, sent down the Message (The Quran); <b>and We (Allah) will assuredly Guard it [from corruption]. </b>
(The Noble Quran, 15:9)."

By the way I didn't click on the link.

There was no link anyway… <b>I know you wouldn’t bother yourself with Bible scholars researches and deep study.</b>

Every word that comes of out Jesus Christ's mouth is remarkable.

Indeed, if we just can have access to his <i>REAL</i> words.

Those Christians who are considering banning Christ's commandment are dreaming! The only One who can ban the teaching is the One who invented it.

You must respect their views FHC, loving your enemy is a good concept, but it is impossible when you try to implement it, so it’s useless.

St Augustine once said, "love your enemies in the hope that they'll become your friend"

Yes, try to implement such beautiful teaching <b> and you will fail miserably</b>. let me give you an example, if somebody for example raped your daughter (God forbade), and the sinner was brought infront of you, and on the other side your poor daughter sitting alone helpless and she don’t even realize what had happened to her, plus this rapist is looking at you and promising that if he get the chance, he would rape your daughter over and over again… will you love this enemy? <b>Please don’t say yes because I am not going to believe you</b>.

Don't dwell too much on Christian beliefs & practices. We're not hurting Islam so it shouldn't bother you. Isn't there an Ayat that says something like, "You have your beliefs & I have yours"??? Why can't you just accept this? Please stop preaching your version of Christianity. I wasn't born yesterday.

I was actually talking about what the Qur’an says regarding trinity and worshipping God. anyway, yes we do have a verse says “to you is your way and to me mine
”, but this is to be said after we invite you to the <b>right path </b> (ISLAM), and if you rejected it, then to you is your way and me mine.


Have a good day.


Salam


Wael.

[Curious Christian]

But the Bible you are reading now is just a copy which was copied from another copy, and that copy was copied from another copy and so on… you got endless copies but no original…

Yeah...and the Quran is????

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Yeah...and the Quran is????

We have the original Qur'an in our hands, every word of the Qur'an was written down during the life time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, his companions memorized the entire book, and untill now it is memorized by millions of Muslims all over the world, and this is how God Almighty preserved His words as promised.


Salam


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

All for the greater glory of God!


Salam Wael!


First of all, God’s words that you are talking about were not written during the time of Moses and Jesus peace be upon them, people started to write down these so called God’s word hundreds of years after their prophets’ demise. And so if you study hard the stories of the scribes who <b>intentionally and unintentionally </b> changed the Bible, you will realize that what you are holding now in your hand is <b>NOT</b> God’s words.



God's Word was transmitted both orally & through written Scripture. Nothing's changed. We have manuscripts that are older than the Quran. They agree to what we read in our Bible's today. You can bedazzle us with your brilliance all you want, but I'll only be convinced by logic.


True, God Almighty gave the Torah to Moses pbuh, but if you read further using the same Qur’an, you will find that God clearly says that Muhammad pbuh was mentioned by name in the Torah as the final messenger of God, now open your OT and let me know where is Muhammad’s pbuh name??



Which O/T translation meets your standards? How can you be sure it matches the original? :rolleyes:


Wael, Wael, Wael!!! Why do you only turn to Scripture when it suits your agenda?


It is also true that God gave the Injeel to Jesus Christ pbuh, but He also mentioned in the same Qur'an that Jesus pbuh in his Gospel told his disciples about the glad tiding of a prophet to come after him and his name shall be Ahmed, now you open your NT and let me which verse refer to our beloved Prophet pbuh as Ahmed, and if you cant find his name, <b>then the Bible that you are reading now is NOT God’s word</b>.



Hmmm... slight problem! Jesus promised that "Ahmed" would abide in us forever. As far as I know, Muhammad's dead & buried (PBUH) & he's not dwelling in anyone's heart.


But the Bible you are reading now is just <i>a copy </i> which was copied from another copy, and that copy was copied from another copy and so on… you got endless copies but no original…



An exact copy of an exact copy of an exact copy, etc. How in the world is everyone supposed to own the original? There are billions of Christians & only one original Bible. To me, it makes perfect sense that the Church produce copies.


Why not? God in the Bible promised those who try to tamper His words to face hell fire, <b>because He knew that it was going to happen</b>.



Yep! He warned us about false prophets.


Look at the Qur’an 5:13 it says "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; <b>they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of;</b> and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."



How funny! My version/translation of the Quran omits "Christians" & just refers to the Jews of Israel in that Ayat. I wonder who's fooling who here?


on the other hand, God Almighty in the Quran did promise that He will personally guard the Quran from corruption. <b>He never promised hell fire to anyone who tries to tamper His words in Quran, because He knew for sure that no one will ever be able to do so</b>.



That's the least of Allah's (SWT) problems when it comes to Quran. Does He mention anything about interpretation or tampering His word in action not literature? Perhaps I could sit back & watch you & Karbala discuss this topic :P Because Wael, you can talk to me till you're blue in the face, but I need to see the real deal in order to believe it!


Indeed, if we just can have access to his <i>REAL</i> words.



Yes! If only we could! If only Christ had established a Church on earth with the authority to teach, govern & sanctify His disciples. If only the Church would hold Mass on a daily basis consisting of the 'Liturgy of Word'. If only God were the principle author of Sacred Scripture & inspired His instruments to record the life of Christ in the Gospels.


If only! If only! If only!


You must respect their views FHC, loving your enemy is a good concept, but it is impossible when you try to implement it, so it’s useless.



Respect & accept are two totally different concepts.


Loving your enemy isn't the easiest thing in the world... but it's certainly possible. God's grace is extraordinary!!!


Yes, try to implement such beautiful teaching <b> and you will fail miserably</b>. let me give you an example, if somebody for example raped your daughter (God forbade), and the sinner was brought infront of you, and on the other side your poor daughter sitting alone helpless and she don’t even realize what had happened to her, plus this rapist is looking at you and promising that if he get the chance, he would rape your daughter over and over again… will you love this enemy? <b>Please don’t say yes because I am not going to believe you</b>.



Hehe! You leave me no choice, dude... If I say yes, you'll call me a liar, & if I say no, I'd be telling a lie!


anyway, yes we do have a verse says “to you is your way and to me mine”, but this is to be said after we invite you to the <b>right path </b> (ISLAM), and if you rejected it, then to you is your way and me mine.



Alhamdulilah! Yalla, bring on the jizya ;)


Take care & God bless.


I'll catch up with you after Easter, Insh a Allah :)

[Curious Christian]

We have the original Qur'an in our hands, every word of the Qur'an was written down during the life time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, his companions memorized the entire book, and untill now it is memorized by millions of Muslims all over the world, and this is how God Almighty preserved His words as promised.

Accept for the abrogated part. :banghead: