The Sh'ites

[Curious Christian]

Wel...OK...so whose fault is it that their is division?

[abdulwalee]

So, under the Shariah, it is perfectly legal for Shiites to celebrate their festivals, even though Sunnis disaproved of the festivals. Correct?


The Shari'ah are the laws of Allah taken from the Qur'an and Authentic Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad. And Our Mother Ayesha narrated from The Prophet that he said<b> "anyone who innovates in this affair of ours will have that innovation rejected"</b> statement or action. so No NO muslim can innovate in Islam and thus have it excepted. But banee Adam is argumenative they will do whatever their desires wish but it will never be accepted By Allah until it has two conditions.... Ihklaas Lillah(sincerity to Allah seeking His pleasure)<b> And</b> Itibaa'a Ar-Rasul(Doing that act of Worship the way the messenger did it or commaded it to be done) But this issue is old issue and many of the late-comers to Islam dont even know about the shia belief. If they did they would Puke.... <b>example @these festival they take a lamb or dog and name them Ayesha or Umar or Abu bakr, Than they snach the wool or fur out until the animal is dead..... </b> and this is just one example. I just want for you what is want for myself...Clarity.. But did you really read the statement of Shaikh salih al-Fawzaan above? My advice,<b>Learn the truth and then you'll know it's people</b> Most of the information about the differences between the shi'tes and Ahlul Sunnah are given by the shia themselves or by muslims who aren't trustworthy in my view... So I'm waiting for The Scholars of Ahlul Sunnah to bring a comprehensive list on the issue but if you do an on-line search you wont get much sound info.


I live in Detroit which is near Derborn the strong hold of many Sh'ites, from lebonon region, they have their main Mosgue there, some of their rituals would make your kufi spin. Incidently the founder of the shia was a Jew. and I could go on and on with the stories with some of their befiels like taking temporary wives just to have sex with them. There is a case now where a shi'ite man killed his Hispanic girlfriend and fled the country after leaving her body in the trunk of his car... <b>see news file here</b>


Woman's body found in car trunk at oil change shop in Redford


The Detroit News


REDFORD TOWNSHIP -- Police are investigating the discovery of a young woman's body in the trunk of a classic automobile parked at the A&H Express Lube Inc. at Plymouth and Columbia.


Dearborn investigators called police about 2 p.m. Monday to report a tip that a body was inside the vehicle, a black four-door Chevy Impala with tinted windows and expensive chrome rims.


Police went to the scene and discovered in the trunk the fully clothed body of a woman who had been reported missing in Detroit on Thursday.


The victim, described as a 27-year-old female, had a visible gunshot wound on her neck.


The woman's name has not yet been released by police but was identified by a relative at at the scene.


"We do have a suspect in mind. He's not in custody," said Redford Township Police Sgt. Craig Brueck.

[abdulwalee]

> So what do shites teach that differs from sunnis?


Short answer: Shiites have a person equivalent to the Pope, so (roughly speaking) Shiites are like Catholics and Sunnis are like Protestants.


For a slightly longer answer, check out the following summary which I posted on another website a few years ago ("IOL Watcher" is me):


The diifference between Sunnis and Shiites.


For a loooooong explaination which is both very fascinating and very depressing... check out the cover story from the March 5, 2007 issue of Time Magazine:





You can find the cover story here:


Behind the Sunni-Shi'ite Divide

This article cant be use as truth because the non-muslims have other motives by writin them, I cant read stuff like time to derive acurate information on an issue as old as America itself, Feel Me?

[reepicheep]

abdulwalee wrote:


> so No NO muslim can innovate in Islam and thus have it excepted.


You're saying contradictory things.


You say that Sunnis are NOT allowed to prevent Shiites from celebrating Shiite festivals. Yet, at the same time, you say celebrating Shiite festivals is against Islamic law.


Are you saying that, according to the Shariah, Shiites are allowed to "pick and choose" when they decide which laws to follow? But that Sunni muslims must follow all Islamic laws???

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Wel...OK...so whose fault is it that their is division?

It is the fault of the people who create divisions and invint lies against Allah and His messenger.


Salam


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to God, peace on earth, good will to all.


I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just felt compelled to share what I heard the other day in regards to the historical background of Islamic groups. This is a very brief audio track taken from a presentation by Tim Staples called 'Islam Exposed'. Although he's not a Muslim, & his views may conflict with yours, I respect & trust his work because he takes an objective approach and never portrays Islam in a negative light. This CD is actually intended for both Muslims & non-Muslims in the hope of sparking interfaith dialogue. It has taken me hours to write up the transcript :lol: I hope at least one person benefits from this contribution. Please excuse my spelling/pronunciation errors.


According to the Quran, Islam may not be the true faith because Muslims are in a state of schism from the very beginning. We all know about the major Sunni/Shiite split that happened within 30 years of Muhammad's death that perdures to this day but there is also the Ibadya who trace their lineage back to Khadija, Muhammad's first wife, and they claim their split happened before the Sunni/Shiite split. Today they are usually found among nomadic Arabs.



Shiites were followers of Ali, the cousin of Muhammad, and his sons. They believe there must be family succession from the prophet and so forth. The Shiites would experience further splits and schisms between the 12'ers, the 7'ers, the Druze, the Alawites, the Zaydees.


The Sunnis would break into 4 main schools of tradition: the Maleeki, found mostly in North Africa today; the Chafee, a more liberalised form of Maleeki; the Hanafi, who were favoured by the Ottoman Turks; and the Hambali, found in about 850AD - 200 years after Muhammad's death, and is the most strict form of Sunni Islam.


Generally speaking, we can say that Sunnis believe the Quran is the uncreated, eternal word of Allah, characteristic of the Sunnis, and that Allah wills both good evil. They are strict double-predestination. They have a very determinist view of fate, in fact, every word, every thought, every deed, is created by Allah. Allah doesn't just create you, He creates your works and everything you do. But the Shiites do not believe this radical view.


Shiites are a minority in Islam (15%). They number about 100,000,000 and are very powerful, controlling Iran. The Shiites in Afghanistan have been told by the Taliban to either convert to Sunni or die. The radicals and fundamentalists amongst Islam don't only kill infidels but rival Muslims too.


The Shiites do not hold the Quran to be uncreated as it would be shirk. Only Allah is uncreated. Shiites also believe in the freedom of the will and that Allah only wills good and not evil.


A few more examples of schisms. Believe me, my list is not exhaustive, there are a huge number of divisions.


The Khoworees Muslims who are named after Khadija and they broke away during the rule of the third and most famous caliph, Uthman, the one who got the surahs and codex together and made the Quran what it is today. The Khoworees broke away because of Uthman's misconduct and for a short time recognized Ali as the fourth caliph but later rebelled against him. The basic distinction in their teaching was that a person or group who committed a grave sin would seize to be Muslim unless they repented. One's actions must correspond to belief. A radical and rigorous movement. The Khoworees held that a ruler should be determined by just deeds and not by family descendents which is central to Shiite teaching who would hold just the opposite. The Khoworees also held that jihad was a practical 6th pillar of Islam, which means that war is a practical necessity, therefore, every able bodied Muslim must be involved in jihad. They were nearly wiped out in the 7th-8th centuries but a group of Khoworees, while they have dropped the necessity of the sword doctrine, continue to exist in parts of Oman, East Africa, Zanzabar Island and perhaps a little more here and there. There greatest legacy in the modern world is the Khoworees influence on the Sunni Wahabis who now dominate Saudi Arabia, so they're still alive and well.


The Shiites, the party of Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law through marriage with Fatima, started as a religious movement among the followers or Muhammad who held that the line of succession for the caliphate should be through Fatima, the daughter of the prophet and Ali, the designated legitimate successor of the Muslim community. The Shiites would teach in distinction to the Sunni that there was an Imam who was a spiritual leader for each generation. These Imams were Ali and his direct line of descendents. There are several groups of Shiites, sometimes referred to as the 12'ers and the 7'ers, who would later split into the Mustaslis around 1094AD, the Nasari and the Zaydes. We have a lot of disagreements among Muslims and divisions.


The Druze are monotheists who are traced back to Sheik Darazi, who was a follower of Hakim the Fatimate caliph of Egypt from 996-1021AD. The Druze separated from the Ismalys in the 11th Century AD and came to teach in the manifestation, the Fatimate caliph as Imam al-Hakim, seen as the 10th and last manifestation of Allah, completing the series. They now await the return of that 10th Imam as what they call the Mahdi. Interesting to note that the Druze meet on Thursday's instead of the Islamic Friday. The Druze retain their own strict ethical code which is somewhat ascetic. They're believers in monogamous marriage unlike most Muslims, they've adapted a Shiite practice of dissimilation, they survive by disguising beliefs and blending into the social surrounding of the non-Druze majority. In Israel, there are Druze who serve in the Israeli military. Druze usually adopt an apolitical stance in most circumstances. They flip-flopped during the invasion of Lebanon by allying themselves with the Palestinians. Druze currently number about 200 000 in the world.


Another sect, the Alawites, believe that men were once stars in a universe of light but fell from the heavens through disobedience, an idea that comes from the Quran and was spiritualized by the Alawites. Furthermore, they believe in something that is repugnant to most Muslims and that is each person will be reincarnated 7 times before they can return to the heavens. Unbelievers will be reincarnated as animals. Their rituals are very secret, they do not worship in the mosque as other Muslims and it is taught by some outside of the Alawites that they hold Ali, Muhammad and Suleiman as a sort of cultic triad. A number of Alawite representatives in the 1970's proclaimed that Alawites are Imanis or 12'ers Shiites, however the Shiites would not agree with them so once again we have another sect among the Alawites. Alawites make up about 11% of Syria and since 1946 found that membership and later control of the military was to their advantage. Today the Syrian president is an Alawite.


The Sunni are the largest sect in Islam and are divided into 4 major legal religious systems. The names of these religious systems in the Sunni tradition are: Hanafites, Maleekites, Chafites, and Hambalites. There are also several other sub-divisions within each legal religious system which can be referred to as denominations, such as the Wahabis. All 4 major groups have something in common in that they classify human actions and omissions into 5 categories which are either: 1. obligatory; 2. recommended; 3. permissible; 4. disapproved; 5. forbidden. Here's the problem, all 4 groups will agree on the 5 fold division of types of human acts, however, they all disagree on what actions or omissions fall into each category. There was a 5th legal religious system called the Zaherite which is now extinct. An important historical note to remember here is that Muhammad dies in 633AD, therefore, these legal religious systems are historical developments representing definite sectarianism in Islam. The Hanafites founded by abu-Hanafa who died in 767AD, born in Iraq and earliest among these Sunni divisions, this system of interpretation is considered to be the most flexible and open to reason and logic. The Sunni Muslims in India and Turkey use this legal religious system to this day. The Maleekites were founded by Maleek-Ibn-Abas, who dies in 795, he wrote and lived in Medina and is said to have known one of the last persons in his time to have been one of the original followers of Muhammad. His influential work is contained in the Muwata, which is followed by all the Muslims of Africa except in the lower delta - Egypt, Zanzibar and South Africa. The Chafites originate from Al-Chafee who died in 820 and lived in Iraq and Egypt. He stressed the traditions of Muhammad as found in the Hadith as the source of Sharia Law. This legal system is used in Indonesia, lower Egypt, Malaysia and Yemen. The Hambalites are derived from Ahmad-Ibn-Hambal who was born in Baghdad and died in 855. He established his tradition of interpretation over 200 years after the death of Muhammad. This legal religious system is the most literal, rigid and least flexible with regard to reason and logic. It is the Wahabis of Saudi Arabia who are the most well-known followers of this legal religious system. Very severe toward women and so forth. All 4 groups teach the Sunni doctrine of Ijma, which means the consensus of the community's legal scholars are infallible. The problem is that they all disagree from one another.


This list is not exhaustive. There are many more sects, but the point is this, the Quran strongly condemns schisms and divisions and tells us not to have anything to do with factions who split up their religion into sects. With no authority or oracle of Allah on earth whose roots extend back to the very beginning and can declare what the Quran truly says, Muslims are reduced to endless splits, schisms and divisions. No Muslim even dares to claim to have this kind of authority.


God bless you all.


<i>Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality</i>

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum,


First of all, I do not know what is the real intention behind this post FHC? Secondly, I’ve already told you guys loud and clear that It is Prohibited in Islam to make sects and divisions, and lastly, I hate when somebody say <i>ACCORDING TO THE QUR’AN </i> and do not provide the reference.


Salam


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God now & forever. Amen.


Peace be with you!

First of all, I do not know what is the real intention behind this post FHC?

Throwing different ideas around in the hope of developing a better understanding.

Secondly, I’ve already told you guys loud and clear that It is Prohibited in Islam to make sects and divisions

Hence, my post! It appears as though "Muslim" is a term used very loosely. It's one thing to say that Islam prohibits sects & divisions, but when you think outside your complacent little bubble, Wael, you'll realize that things aren't quite what they seem. I can't just accept your words on a shaky foundation. Please reason this out for me. Give me a breakdown of Tim's presentation rather than a frivolous statement. Discuss! Discuss! Discuss!

and lastly, I hate when somebody say <i>ACCORDING TO THE QUR’AN </i> and do not provide the reference.

Please let me know which themes you'd like me to provide references for.


God bless.

[Dan]

Bismillah


"According to the Quran, Islam may not be the true faith because Muslims are in a state of schism from the very beginning."


Here's the number one for me. It is pretty much when this guy's opinion was dismissed. Like welmel said, he needs to quote to prove his claim. Read the Qur'an a few times and have never seen anything close to this point, so I too would like some verification.


TY

[abdulwalee]

[You said <b>"I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just felt compelled to share what I heard the other day in regards to the historical background of Islamic groups. This is a very brief audio track taken from a presentation by Tim Staples called 'Islam Exposed'. Although he's not a Muslim, & his views may conflict with yours, I respect & trust his work because he takes an objective approach and never portrays Islam in a negative light. This CD is actually intended for both Muslims & non-Muslims in the hope of sparking interfaith dialogue</b>


I read it and he's Not Objective nor can he speak on the issues of Division in Islam, because he's not a scholar in Islam or an expert, but rather he he may be able to speak on division in Cotholosim because he's one of your people . has an alterior motive behind his writings <b>Islam exposed</b> as what? in his view? I dont see how any Muslim who knows their religion would listen to this form of doubt....Interfaith diolog... What does this mean dont say the truth about someone who is guilty of Shirk? Not permissable for the Muslims to engage in this type of diolog but rather we are to call you to worship Allah alone with wisdom and nice Exaltation. and NOT share the platform... even though many muslims engage in this It is Still <b>NOT permissable</b> Thus it is an Innovation and rejected