A two part question

[voice of reason]

Bismillah


As Salam alaikum


Here we go again, so....


read all of this info if you care


http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=1842

If a moderator could combine the double posting I would appreciate it. I am not sure how I did it but I am sure it is a little confusing.


Peace to all,


Voice of Reason

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam


Voice of reason, I d be more than happy to help in any way, just explain more what u mean by combining the two posts. And ah I have something to say on this issue.


also Insh aAllah will recommend a number of other explanatory posts, I hope you will find them useful in giving what u need of info. Otherwise, if not, pls feel free to tell us Insh a Allah with the close help of Allah will try to help. :)


Good morning from Cairo. :wavey:


Muslimah in a very cheerful mood in anticipation to the annoucement of Ramadan this evening insh a Allah.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Submit


I think u need to do some more homework on the knowledge regarding hadeeth. They are neither corrupted nor contradicting.


Just to address major issues u included in your post, I always grow concerned for Muslim brother/sister and hasten to help, hope u accept this approach. Not to brag or understimate the person.


Well, Quran IS complete to your surprise, even the example u gave regarding the play of game.


Well Allah Commands us in Quran saying:


"<b>So ask of those who know </b> the Scripture [learned men of the Torah and the Gospel], if you know not." (Quran 16:43)


The underlined part of the Ayah, submit, in this particular context yes it refers to checking back with people of the book who had knowledge regarding the advent of Mohamed prayer and peace be upon him. However, since Quran is a sustainable manual, we should refer to those who are specialized in any given area when we need to know something. Actually, Quran calls for the respect of specializations and trying to benefit of one another in regard to knowledge.


Thus, even this is mentioned in Quran.


In a simple format Voice of Reason, Allah Is Most Capable of including all the detailed steps we need to take to lead our lives as Allah Pleases in Quran.


however, because we are humans, Allah Willed to present to us how to do things thru a human being just like us. One who eats, drinks, sleeps, works, marries, divorces, cries, grieves, fall ill...etc. In case Allah for instance sent this revelation thru an angle, we would say O we cannt follow, we are humans we cannt afford to do what an angle does.


As such, it was made in practice thru a human being.


Just a concise and brief reply.

[Deen]

The quran is complete without doubt which commands us to do actions and forbids us from carrying out certain actions.


However, it does not give us detailed information on what steps to take in-order to fulfill the command.


For example, Allah SWT tells us to perform salah, sawm and hajj etc. But the quran does not give us ellaborate detail on how to achieve or carry out these commands. So when we do our salah, we do it because it is a command from Allah SWT and how we do it is based upon the sunnah/hadith of Rasool (SAW). The Qur’aan does not mention how many Rak`ahs (units of prayer) we should make, or how to physically move during prayer, or the time for prayer. Similarly, the Qur’aan does not mention the minimum amount of money to have before giving Zakaat (charity) or the conditions by which to pay it.


Many of our `Ibaadaat cannot be performed without stopping at the explanations related to the regulations, pillars, and conditions of nullification. It is thus a must to return to Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) to know the rules in a comprehensive and clear manner.


So therefore, we cannot follow the quran without following the sunnah as there are many evidences to support this.


"And We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought." [Qur’aan 16:44]


Allah also made it clear to us that the duty of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) is to clarify the truth to people when there is a dispute:


"And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe." [Qur’aan 16:64]


We are obligated to follow any ruling by Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) in any dispute:


"But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." [Qur’aan 4:65]


Therefore, muslims cannot follow attain Allah SWT's pleasure without referring to the sunnah as the quran and sunnah is what makes Islaam just like H2O makes water!

[submit]

The quran is complete without doubt which commands us to do actions and forbids us from carrying out certain actions.


However, it does not give us detailed information on what steps to take in-order to fulfill the command.


For example, Allah SWT tells us to perform salah, sawm and hajj etc. But the quran does not give us ellaborate detail on how to achieve or carry out these commands. So when we do our salah, we do it because it is a command from Allah SWT and how we do it is based upon the sunnah/hadith of Rasool (SAW). The Qur’aan does not mention how many Rak`ahs (units of prayer) we should make, or how to physically move during prayer, or the time for prayer. Similarly, the Qur’aan does not mention the minimum amount of money to have before giving Zakaat (charity) or the conditions by which to pay it.

Peace be upon you.


<b>Salah</b>


The Five Times Are Specified in the Quran


(1) The Dawn Prayer is mentioned by name in 24:58. Before sunrise.


(2) The Noon Prayer is specified in 17:78. When the sun declines.


(3) The Afternoon Prayer is in 2:238. Midway between noon & sunset.


(4) The Sunset Prayer is mentioned in 11:114. Immediately after sunset.


(5) The Night Prayer is in 11:114, and is mentioned by name in 24:58.


"O you who believe, in preparation for the Contact Prayer, you shall


(1) wash your faces,


(2) wash your arms to the elbows,


(3) wipe your heads with wet hands, and


(4) wash your feet to the ankles." [Quran 5:6]


If water is not available, one must touch clean dry soil, then wipe his hands and face. This suffices as a substitute for ablution (4:43, 5:6).


The Major Ablution:


Following any sexual activity that results in a climax (orgasm/ejaculation), one must bath or take a shower (4:43).


Qibla:


Face the direction of Mecca (Qiblah): 2:125.


Your Tone of Voice During the Contact Prayers:


"You shall not be too loud during your Contact Prayers, nor shall you say them secretly; you shall maintain an intermediate tone" [17:110].


1. The Dawn Prayer must be observed during two hours before sunrise [11:114], [24:58].


2. The Noon Prayer is due when the sun declines from its highest point at noon [17:78].


3. The Afternoon Prayer can be observed during the 3-4 hours preceding sunset [2:238].


4. The Sunset Prayer is due after sunset [11:114].


5. The Night Prayer can be observed after the twilight disappears from the sky [24:58].


The Friday noon congregational prayer is an obligatory duty of every Submitting man and woman [62:9]. Failure to observe the Friday Prayer is a gross offense.


Who founded Salah?


Abraham. [21:73] [22:78]


Submission.org (note: they have wrong ideas, and Rashad Khalifa may have lost his mind, but the mathmatics is true...):


All the 5 contact prayers confirmed.


[1] Sura 1 is God's gift to us, to establish contact with Him (Salat). Write the sura number and the number of verses next to each other and you get 17, the total number of units in the 5 daily prayers.


[2] Let us write down the sura number, followed by the number of each verse in the sura. This is what we get:


1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. This number is a multiple of 19.


[3] Now, let us replace each verse number by the number of letters in that verse. This is what we get:


1 19 17 12 11 19 18 43 also a multiple of 19.


Theoretically, one can alter the letters of Sura 1, and still keep the same number of letters, however, the following mathematical phenomena rule out that possibility. For the gematrical value of every single letter is taken into consideration. Here it is:


Properties of Sura 1,The Key


Verse No. No. of Letters Gematrical Value


1 19 786


2 17 581


3 12 618


4 11 241


5 19 836


6 18 1072


7 43 6009


[4] Let us include the gematrical value of every verse, and write it down following the number of letters in each verse:


1 19 786 17 581 12 618 11 241 19 836 18 1072 43 6009 also a multiple of 19.


[5] Now, let us add the number of each verse, followed by the number of letters in that verse, then the gematrical value of that verse.


This is what we get:


1 1 19 786 2 17 581 3 12 618 4 11 241 5 19 836 6 18 1072 7 43 6009a multiple of 19.


[6] Instead of the gematrical value of every verse, let us write down the gematrical values of every individual letter in Sura 1.


This truly awesome miracle shows that the resulting long number, consisting of 274 digits, is also a multiple of 19.


1 7 1 19 2 60 40 1 30 30 5 1 30 200 8 40 50 1 30 200 8 10 40 2 17 ...50


This number starts with the sura number, followed by the number of verses in the sura, followed by the verse number, followed by the number of letters in this verse, followed by the gematrical values of every letter in this verse, followed by the number of the next verse, followed by the number of letters in this verse, followed by the gematrical values of every letter in this verse, and so on to the end of the sura. Thus, the last component is 50, the value of "N" (last letter).


[7] Since I cannot write very long numbers here, let us substitute [*] for the long number consisting of the number of every verse, followed by the number of letters in the verse, followed by the gematrical value of every individual letter in the verse. If we write down the number of the sura, followed by its number of verses, we get 17, the number of units (Rak'aas) in the 5 daily prayers.


Next to the 17, write down the number of the first prayer (1), followed by its number of Rak'aas, which is 2, then two [*]'s, followed by the number of the second prayer (2), followed by the number of Rak'aas in the second prayer (4), followed by four [*]'s, and so on.


Not only is the resulting long number a multiple of 19, but it is also the number of its component digits; 4636 (19x244) ....


Please note that any representation of Sura 1 can replace the [*]'s without affecting the outcome; all of them give multiples of 19.


For example, a short representation of "The Key" consists of the Sura number (1), followed by the verses (7), followed by the total number of letters in Sura 1 (139), followed by the total gematrical value of the whole sura (10143). The resulting number (1713910143) can also represent [*].


1712[*][*]24[*][*][*][*]34[*][*][*][*]43[*][*][*]54[*][*][*][*]


Confirmation of the Friday prayer


[8] Since the Friday prayer consists of two sermons and two Rak'aas (total is still 4 units), we read only 15 "Keys" on Friday, compared with 17 on the other days. If we replace the 17 by 15 in the long number in [7] and remove two "Keys" from the noon prayer, we still get a multiple of 19. This confirms the Friday Prayer, at noon, with 2 "Keys." The long number shown below represents Friday's five prayers; it is a multiple of 19.


1512[*][*]24[*][*]34[*][*][*][*]43[*][*][*][*]54[*][*][*][*]


The Key must be recited in Arabic


[9] The first sura in the Quran is mathematically composed in a manner that challenges and stumps the greatest mathematicians on earth. Now we appreciate the fact that when we recite Sura 1, "The Key," during our Contact Prayers something happens in the universe, and we establish contact with our Creator. The result is perfect happiness, now and forever.


By contacting our Almighty Creator 5 times a day, we nourish and develop our souls in preparation for the Big Day when we meet God. Only those who nourish their soul will be able to withstand and enjoy the physical presence of Almighty God. All submitters, of all nationalities, recite the words of "The Key" which were written by God Himself, and given to us to establish contact with Him [2:37].


When you recite "The Key" in Arabic, your lips touch each other precisely 19 times. Your lips touch each other where the letters "B" and "M" occur. There are 4 "B's" and 15 "M's" and this adds up to 19. The gematrical value of the 4 "B's" is 4x2=8, and the gematrical value of the 15 "M's" is 15x40=600. The total gematrical value of the 4 "B's" and 15 "M's" is 608, that is 19x32.


Word Letter Value


1 Bism B 2


2 Bism M 40


3 Rahman M 40


4 Rahim M 40


5 Al-Hamdu M 40


6 Rub B 2


7 `Alamin M 40


8 Rahman M 40


9 Rahim M 40


10 Malik M 40


Word Letter Value


11 Yawm M 40


12 Na'budu B 2


13 Mustaqim M 40


14 Mustaqim M 40


15 An`amta M 40


16 `Alayhim M 40


17 Maghdub M 40


18 Maghdub B 2


19 `Alayhim M 40


608 (19x32)


Number of bowing (Ruku'), prostration (Sujood), and tashahud


[10] One of the common challenges...is: "If the Quran is complete and fully detailed (as claimed in [6:19, 38, 114], where are the details of the Contact Prayers?"


These people ask this question because they are not aware that the Quran informs us that the Contact Prayers came from Abraham ([21:73] [22:78]. If we write down the numbers of the prayers with their bowings, prostrations and Tashahhuds, we get:


1 1 2 2 4 1 2 4 4 8 2 3 4 4 8 2 4 3 3 6 2 5 4 4 8 2


This long number consists of the sura that we recite in the 5 prayers


(1) followed by the number of the first prayer (1), then the number of "Keys" that we recite in this prayer (2), then the number of bowings (Ruku`) (2), then the number of prostrations (4), then the number of Tashahhuds (in the sitting position) (1), then the number of the second prayer (2), then the number of "Keys" that we recite in the second prayer (4), then the number of bowings (Ruku`) in this prayer (4), then the number of prostrations (8), then the number of Tashahhuds (2), then the number of the third prayer (3), and so on to the last prayer. This long number is a multiple of 19, and this confirms the minutest details of the prayers, even in the number of Ruku`, Sujud, and Tashahhud.


What to say during the bowing


[22:77] "O you who believe, you shall bow, prostrate, worship your Lord, and work righteousness, that you may succeed."


See also, 2:43, 2:125, 5:55, 9:112, 22:26 and 48:29.


For falling prostrate also see; 3:113, 4:102, 7:206, 13:15, 15:98, 16:49, 17:107, 19:58, 22:18, 25:64, 41:37, 48:29, 53:62, 76:26, and 96:19,


What to say when we bow down: (Subhana Rabbya Al-Azeem), can be found in 56:74


[56:74] "You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great. ' (Fa-Sabbeh Be-Ism Rabbeka Al-Azeem)


What to say when you get up from bowing


"Sami-a Allahu Le-man Hamedahu" (God hears those who praise Him)


[3:38] "That is when Zachariah implored his Lord: "My Lord, grant me such a good child; You are the Hearer of the prayers."


AND,


[52:48] "You shall steadfastly persevere in carrying out your Lord's command - you are in our eyes - and glorify and praise your Lord when you get up."


What to say during the prostration


"Subhana Rabbya Al-A'ala " can be found in 87:1


[87:1] "Glorify the name of your Lord, the Most High." (Sabbeh Ism Rabbeka Al-A'ala)


Shahada (Tashahhod)


La Elaha Ella Allah (There is no god besides God).


The Shahada recited after the prostration of the second Rakaat and at the end of the prayers can be found in 3:18. This is the Shahada of God, the angels and those who possess knowledge. The Shahada of the hypocrites can be found in 63:1


[3:18] "GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, (La Elaha Ella Ho, Ho in reference to God, Allah ) and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; there is no god but He, the Almighty, Most Wise."

Many of our `Ibaadaat cannot be performed without stopping at the explanations related to the regulations, pillars, and conditions of nullification. It is thus a must to return to Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) to know the rules in a comprehensive and clear manner.


So therefore, we cannot follow the quran without following the sunnah as there are many evidences to support this.


"And We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought." [Qur’aan 16:44]

That's pretty weak evidence. What is Muhammed, peace and blessings upon him? He's a messenger. What do messengers bring? Messages. He brought the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the message.

Allah also made it clear to us that the duty of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) is to clarify the truth to people when there is a dispute:


"And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe." [Qur’aan 16:64]

Glorious Qur'an [16:63]: By God, We have sent others to nations before you, but the devil adorned their work for them. So he is their ally today, and they will have a painful retribution.


Glorious Qur'an [16:64]: And We did not send down the Scripture to you except that you may clarify to them that in which they disputed, and as a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.


It's obvious the 'scripture' is talking about the Qur'an. There is nothing to do with Muhammed, peace and blessings upon him.

We are obligated to follow any ruling by Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) in any dispute:


"But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." [Qur’aan 4:65]

It says in the surrounding verses: 'We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed in accordance with GOD's will...Never indeed, by your Lord; they are not believers unless they come to you to judge in their disputes, then find no hesitation in their hearts whatsoever in accepting your judgment. They must submit a total submission.'


Notice how the verses speak in the PRESENT tense! Wow...i never knew Muhammed, peace and blessings upon him, was still alive. We're having a dispute now. Let's take it to him now. We have to accept his judgement.


Lol. It's obviously speaking about when the Rasool was ALIVE.


It does not mention following his teachings.


Infact it tells us to follow his judgement. However he cannot judge our situation. Why? Because he is dead. We'll have to wait for Isa, peace and blessings upon him, or the Mehdi, if we want a judge now.

Therefore, muslims cannot follow attain Allah SWT's pleasure without referring to the sunnah as the quran and sunnah is what makes Islaam just like H2O makes water!

Not really. I'm a Muslim. Never read the Sunnah or Hadith properly. Don't need them. I just need the Qur'an.


Let us remember Hadiths and Sunna were issued by a simple camel trader. The Qur'an was issued by an All-Powerful God.


may God bless you.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


For some reason this thread was made twice. Insh a Allah for easy surfing, I comined the two thread since the replies were all important Mash a Allah. May Allah Assist Voice of reason in his quest ameen. May Allah Pulls him towards Allah fast enough, may Allah Grants him comfort and satisfaction in order to realize the truth. May Allah Grant him and all those who are ina similar situation light enough to see truth from falsehood. May Allah Assist us all to be source of correct info and spread the message of Islam ameen. :)

[Muslimah]

Bismillah

Notice how the verses speak in the PRESENT tense! Wow...i never knew Muhammed, peace and blessings upon him, was still alive. We're having a dispute now. Let's take it to him now. We have to accept his judgement.


Lol. It's obviously speaking about when the Rasool was ALIVE.


It does not mention following his teachings.


<b>Infact it tells us to follow his judgement</b>. However he cannot judge our situation. Why? Because he is dead. We'll have to wait for Isa, peace and blessings upon him, or the Mehdi, if we want a judge now.


Not really. I'm a Muslim. Never read the Sunnah or Hadith properly. Don't need them. I just need the Qur'an.


<b>Let us remember Hadiths and Sunna were issued by a simple camel trader</b>. The Qur'an was issued by an All-Powerful God.


may God bless you.

The problem usually stems when people become infatuated with their so called knowledge and analytical ability. Good u quoted this Ayah the underlined part about the judgment is a direct command to follow the sunnah.


How about this Ayah:


"And perform the prayer, and give Zakat and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) that you may receive mercy (from Allah)." (Quran 24:56)


If u follow quran, read carefull, in many positions Allah Say Obey Allah and the Messenger, but look at this Ayah. Because Allah Knew that there will be people like u submit who would come saying what u r saying, Allah Put this Ayah calling to obey the Messenger.


And in the second bolded part, are u refering to the Messenger prayer and peace be upon him? watch it ok. U better be more respectful. Ok.

[submit]

Salam alaykum.

The problem usually stems when people become infatuated with their so called knowledge and analytical ability.

I'm not arrogant.

Good u quoted this Ayah the underlined part about the judgment is a direct command to follow the sunnah.

But i just explained that. He cannot judge our situation. Why? Because he is dead. However, there is a way he can judge. It's if our situation is almost identical to a situation explained in the Hadiths. But if our situation is just similar or not similar at all, then we cannot use his previous judgement.

How about this Ayah:


"And perform the prayer, and give Zakat and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) that you may receive mercy (from Allah)." (Quran 24:56)


If u follow quran, read carefull, in many positions Allah Say Obey Allah and the Messenger, but look at this Ayah. Because Allah Knew that there will be people like u submit who would come saying what u r saying, Allah Put this Ayah calling to obey the Messenger.

It's in present tense. I'd obey into death if i could. But he can't speak. Although i suppose he could contact me in a dream. I've heard of people meeting the prophets in their dreams...

And in the second bolded part, are u refering to the Messenger prayer and peace be upon him? watch it ok. U better be more respectful. Ok.

Yes i'm referring to the prophet Muhammed, peace and blessings upon him. I'm not being disrespectful. He was only a man. A great man. One of the best. But still only a man. I love him alot. But i love Allah more.


I did not mean to sound disrespectful, sister.


I'm just saying we should follow some Hadiths issued from a man, which means they are not eternal hadiths, rather than follow an eternal Qur'an from an Eternal Lord?


may Allah bless you.

[Deen]

I'm just saying we should follow some Hadiths issued from a man, which means they are not eternal hadiths, rather than follow an eternal Qur'an from an Eternal Lord?


may Allah bless you.

It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: <b>if any one </b> disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.


033.036


"And, he (the Prophet) does not speak from his desires; verily, what he says is revelation from (God)" [soorah an-Najm (53):3]


You are a brave person saying what you have. However, your above statement does underpin the level of ignorance.


The verse above clearly states that rasool (saw) does not speak from his own desires as it is revelation and you have the audacity to say hadiths issued from a man!

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Jazakum Allah khairan Deen for posting this reply, sometimes one really feels tired


Submit, let me ask you a direct question in order to resovle a certain issue, since you bounced between statements in a number of posts.


Are you a Quranii?


simple yes or no.