God has called me

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah

For these truths are written in the laws of gravity, which none can avoid, it is written in the laws of thermodynamics, which none can avoid, it is written in the chemistry of the DNA, which none can avoid.

WHO wrote the laws?

[Anyabwile]

Bismillah
WHO wrote the laws?

<a></a>21090[/snapback]

I personally belive God wrote them, but this has nothing to do with Islam Umm. Call it what you will the creator, intelligent design. So on and do forth. But what does that prove Umm? The creation of universe and the universe we live in is a completely seperate thing compared to the angry wrath filled God of Mohammed, Allah is just one persons interpritation of God. This Allah is a very sucessful model of God, because it eats at our natural instinct, fear. I know it's sucessfull, because i was there and i belived it. But yes, just because somoene wrote those laws Umm, there's no proof it was the Allah of Mohammed. But you can make yourself belive this, i did.


Universist very intresting post, thank you. I cringe when i read my old posts but also it fascinates me, because i see the force and power of Islam, and i want to learn more about that system of fear that keeps you in place, in order. From one book and a lot of fabrication it's possible to lock the mind. I'm fascinated in the hold it has. But yes, Universist, i belive in intelligent creation. I'm fine with calling this God, whatever. I just belive what we have here could not have been an accident, that is somethng i do not accept. The way life flows it sometimes seems like an experiment i don't know. But science fascinated me looong before Islam, except then i was Athiest. Now i accept design in the universe, and when you accept design, theres got to be some kind of consciousness behind that. Life is fascinating, this is something i discover more outside of the box i was in as a Muslim.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Anyawbile


Just one thing, YOUR belief is not mine. I have been a Muslimah for eight and a half year alhamdulillah and I am still learning. Before that it took me several years to look into Islam before embracing it. I wanted to be SURE what I was doing, it was a commitment for life for me, otherwise I would have not said my Shahadah.


And of these kind of conclusion you have come to I have not, you may be much smarter than I, only Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala knows that. I have no problem with that. I prefer the path I have been guided to.

Call it what you will the creator, intelligent design.

Yes I think that is a very good description of our Creator.

The creation of universe and the universe we live in is a completely seperate thing compared to the angry wrath filled God of Mohammed, Allah is just one persons interpritation of God.

I don't understand, what universe, separation from universe has to do with you then jumping to 'the angry wrath filled God of Mohammad, Allah' plus ONE persons interpreation of God.


You know Anyawbile 'this angry God of Muhammad, saws is mine to, and you make no sense. I feel hate in your words, I am used to meet these kind of words from people that are much more distinguised from Islam than you.


I once had a brother that was very protective and respective. HE told me when I told him I was writing with non Muslims, something like this 'don't let them mess with my sister, then I will tell them what I think'. This brother was Anya. I miss him.

This Allah is a very sucessful model of God, because it eats at our natural instinct, fear.

Subhan'Allah...I am speachless 'This Allah' THIS ALLAH?! Subhan'Allah.


Take care Anyawbile, wish you the best for the future, sad that you have taken this path, so SAD. But it is all in the will of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.

[SisterJennifer]

This Allah is a very sucessful model of God, because it eats at our natural instinct, fear.

Its also our natural instinct to LOVE. You need to have a healthy balance of both.

[Universist]

Bismillah
WHO wrote the laws?

<a></a>21090[/snapback]

WHO?


It has to be a "who" for you?


You live in Fear.


Of course you need a "who".


Universist

[Universist]

I personally belive God wrote them, but this has nothing to do with Islam Umm. Call it what you will the creator, intelligent design. So on and do forth. But what does that prove Umm? The creation of universe and the universe we live in is a completely seperate thing compared to the angry wrath filled God of Mohammed, Allah is just one persons interpritation of God. This Allah is a very sucessful model of God, because it eats at our natural instinct, fear. I know it's sucessfull, because i was there and i belived it. But yes, just because somoene wrote those laws Umm, there's no proof it was the Allah of Mohammed. But you can make yourself belive this, i did.
Universist very intresting post, thank you. I cringe when i read my old posts but also it fascinates me, because i see the force and power of Islam, and i want to learn more about that system of fear that keeps you in place, in order. From one book and a lot of fabrication it's possible to lock the mind. I'm fascinated in the hold it has. But yes, Universist, i belive in intelligent creation. I'm fine with calling this God, whatever. I just belive what we have here could not have been an accident, that is somethng i do not accept. The way life flows it sometimes seems like an experiment i don't know. But science fascinated me looong before Islam, except then i was Athiest. Now i accept design in the universe, and when you accept design, theres got to be some kind of consciousness behind that. Life is fascinating, this is something i discover more outside of the box i was in as a Muslim.

<a></a>21091[/snapback]

I respect that you feel there is an intelligent designer to the universe. I very much respect that you have rejected man made tales of this designer. I personally have not found anything about creation which leads me to believe that there is a God in it that is directing the nature of the universe.


The key to my understanding begins with rejecting the idea that we are here as the result of any accident. As I dove into the deep mathemetics of thermodynamics I began to understand concepts of entropy and how energy changes states. Many people believe that we have arrived at some higher orderly state of being than is normal within the universe. They believe that this higher orderly state of energy which is humanity is somehow special or unique and could not have occured naturally within the universe. That a God must exist which decided to force us into existence.


But a deeper understanding of the universal fabric tells me that this is not so. That it is perfectly within the realm of mathematical reason that given time and energy all permutations of existence fit the conciousness that we experience. In other words this existence is not an accident. In fact all existence conforms to the physics. And the creation of intelligent beings is nothing more than an ongoing extension of a multi-billion year old expansion of energy patterns in a finite universe.


There was an originating event. It was a universe creating expansion of energy. What preceeded it may never be known. But I can say without doubt or fear of hell that no story written by men of faith accurately describes the universe or our role in it. And in time mankind will shake itself of this mental need for a god to accompany us through creation. Or we will simply destroy ourselves in the all the dogma that comes with such limited expression of understanding.


Either way the outcome is not important. All energy in the system will maintain equilibrium and that is all that matters.


Universist

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Umm we dont have to be sad, matter of fact, the more I read Universist and Anyah's posts, the more I grow thankful to Allah The Merciful for Assisting me, thankful that Alhamdulelah I do know who Allah Is. We make choices Umm we do. right!


Anya, I think in numerous positions you expressed a wish to discuss what you have on a pm with someone like Radiyah. If u do have points, discuss them with her. Not that as we all made it clear to you, in a hope to bring you back, no, but only because you wished so. Otherwise, I think as everyone else is telling you, you are not making much sense here acting like directing a suspense movie, hinting about major discoveries, not wanting to reveal them.


Just reveal what you have, otherwise, I see no need for repeating yourself without a concret text.


BTW I think I know where you got these texts from.


One more point, Umm you should not be sad. Alhamdulelah, if Anya or anyone else leaves Islam, this will not diminish Allah's Existence the least.


Allah Shall continue to Exist, Allah as Explained in Quran, Mohamed's salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam as well as mine and even if Anya and Universist reject it, but their's too.


And Jennifer you just brought the point that they need to understand, but unfortunately they dont see it.


Sobhan Allah Jennifer, they dont mind fearing their boss at work, make much concern about a traffic man in the street, a judge in a court room, they only fear them. They dont try to get closer to the boss out of love, only out of fear.


But they refuse to have a sort of respect to the Creator Who blessed them with countless bounties.


Sobhan Allah they just apply the Ayah without realizing this:


"O man! What has made you careless concerning your Lord, the Most Generous?* Who created you, fashioned you perfectly, and gave you due proportion;


* In whatever form He willed, He put you together." (Quran 82:6-8)


Alhamdulelah

[Anyabwile]

I think as everyone else is telling you, you are not making much sense here acting like directing a suspense movie, hinting about major discoveries, not wanting to reveal them. Just reveal what you have, otherwise, I see no need for repeating yourself without a concret text.

There are no major discoveries, i dont remember ever saying this, its the same stuff that you and ever other Muslim is reading. Except through fear of scorching in Hell from God you ignore it or tell yourself "this is not supposed to make sence" No major discoveries Muslimah. God enslaving women, God allowing women to be beat, Scientific blunders in the Quran, Mohammed in the reliable hadith, abrogation etc etc no new discoveries, i've just chosen not to belive what you all want to. I also Muslima am hurt veyr much by how you speak to me one way on the forum and another way in PM's may i note, stick to being aggressive and rude, or caring and concerned, dont put on a show for those reading.

There was an originating event. It was a universe creating expansion of energy. What preceeded it may never be known. But I can say without doubt or fear of hell that no story written by men of faith accurately describes the universe or our role in it.

Yes Universist, for me the fact there was an originating event suggested to me something had to start it. Now this could be anything, something as far from any kind of "God" as we could imagine. But its something and it knew. Thats what fascinates me.


I belive the proof of creation is blatantly all around us, there was some kind of thought behind that originating event, how or what was though we may never know. And like yourself i reject any kind of religion now, im just fascinated with what put us here, whether our origin was billions of years in a natrual order of creation or not, we're here now, and it wasnt an accident. However i dont think we're supposed to work this out, if we did, it unravels anything.


I dont think God or this creator is anything close to what we could imagine, i certainly belive it has no human qualities such as anger, or punishing its inferiors as religions state, and in all honesty, i dont belive we're supposed to know what this God is about anyway, i belive we, and our make up and the limits of our knowledge were designed this way, never to know for sure. Which makes the thirst for knowing stronger of course [img]style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img] Maybe the day we do discover the truth, it all ends, maybe thats the creators plan, as i said before, an experiment. Who knows???


However i got lost with some of what you are writing, you may need to put some of it in more simple terms for me. Im a simple man haha. And although i have a huge intrest in science i dont grasp all of it, only on a basic level.

You know Anyawbile 'this angry God of Muhammad, saws is mine to, and you make no sense. I feel hate in your words, I am used to meet these kind of words from people that are much more distinguised from Islam than you.

This is what i tried to stress since my first post here, i dont wish to discuss Islam here, its the same topics i once defended because i convinced myself to, and i was fearful of Allah like all good Muslims. So why bring them up again, these are the same topics i once defended like a warrior.


The reason i dont want to discuss them here is because, belive it or not i dont like hurting feelings of people i consider friends, i have tried to stress this. My reason for not discussing is not because i am trying to be a "film director" as Muslmah rather bizzarely put it, it's because, as im finding in PM's because i learnt a fair bit about Islam in my time, remember i was studying this before i took Shahada to a point, the discussion i have with Muslims can make them feel uncomfortable and hurt. So i dont wish to openly discuss here, another forum fine but i still do not feel right doing it here. It's basic respect for people that i still have feelings for, even if this is not flowing both ways right now.


This seems to be frustrating Muslimah who obviously wants a confrontation a chance to perform. And i still hold a respect for you Muslimah, even if i am now an non beliver. I'm not going to take the bait. Theres no need to, we're both happy Umm, me, and you so there's no need to discuss the topics, Ronni, John Doe and others have all gone over and ran intobrick walls, especially when they came up against me [img]style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif[/img] .


I suggest perhaps Umm if you get time, both you and Muslimah look back on all my old posts, and see how passionate i was toward Islam, how i defended it, and how i confronted those who attacked it, just have a look. And then after you look, think why would i leave it? Someone who loved Islam and was dedicated to Allah so much he'd leave his family and friends, what would i see in Islam that is such a new discovery, that i would leave.


Nothing, no new discovery. I just accepted the truth, no matter how much i didnt want to. The truth is in the Qur'an and the Hadith, the same realiable Hadith you use to learn about Mohammed and Islam. You've no doubt all read the same things i have. So why would one like me who loved Islam (remember to look back at my posts) leave? Because i couldnt lie to myself anymore. Thats it, no discovery, im sorry Muslimah and others, thats all it is, as simple as that.


I do not appreciate the tone i receive but its of course to be expected. I will make an effort to post less. I work with Internet so im always online, so this site is just a click away and i see no reason not to check my PM's etc, and read the discussions but i cant make it more clear than that. The things people present about Islam which clearly show it is not a religion from God, you reject for your own reasons, i now accept those same things, because i wanted to be truthfull to myself. No matter how frightening at the time it was to admit this.


If i am responded to then, of course i will respond back otherwise, theres nothing else i can, or really want to add. Except say to ALL i am deeply sorry, all i've done is cut away all friends now, even the Muslim ones, but im the kind of person who can't accept it my heart and my actual eyes are telling me, "this is not the truth"


Umm, Dan, Radiyah, Muslimah and all others i spoke with. I am sorry for letting you down, i know one day definately not all of you, but some of you will <b>directly</b> understand this.

[umm Zachariah]

Bismillah


Anyabwile


This is truly not leading anyway only to nowhere.


You know what I feel? It is better to let go. We have now our blessed month of Ramadan coming up and will not attend any more than usual on the board, probably much less and the discussions will not be that lively.


And since your messages are by now

God enslaving women, God allowing women to be beat, Scientific blunders in the Quran, Mohammed in the reliable hadith, abrogation etc etc

I think all has been said. Your view of this is strictly as a non Muslim, the same arguments I have read over and over again on anti Islamic sites, cited to other forums from anti Islamic sites, but there is never anyone that brings them forth that can hold water unto them, it is only like 'slogans' having a demonstration and shouting these things out. Just to raise the voice against Islam and it's followers.
All people that has turned to religion has faced this, more or less, Muslims have face it for the last 1400 years, so it is nothing new. But today it is more effective when we have the internet and anyone can start a homepage and write whatever they like, without restrictions. So the voices are easier to hear today.

I dont think God or this creator is anything close to what we could imagine, i certainly belive it has no human qualities such as anger, or punishing its inferiors as religions state, and in all honesty, i dont belive we're supposed to know what this God is about anyway, i belive we, and our make up and the limits of our knowledge were designed this way, never to know for sure.

No that I agree on WE can never KNOW fully WHO He is, but it seems you have gone by that, and know by now what He has revealed is not true. This way you call the Creator a lier, astaghfirullah.

the discussion i have with Muslims can make them feel uncomfortable and hurt. So i dont wish to openly discuss here

Anya, I think you already have passed that threshold. You passed the door, a new world is awaiting you on the other side. Enjoy it. Just one advice, stop this road you are on now, trying to learn Muslims what Islam is all about, especially since many are born Muslims and have a lot of knowledge of Islam and others that have studied Islam many more years, than you may had time to do. If you want to show RESPECT, then this is the way. Just stop talk to Muslims like we are children and that Islam is a false religion.


You take in your new world and be happy and let us stay and be happy. This time is short, let us do the best of it. In the way we feel is right. you do it your way and we do it our way. If you mean 'respect' this should not be any problem.


When one is not happy with the situation one is in, and do not believe, then one begin by all means to find faults, no matter if the way is honest or not, just to get a 'confirmation' that what I believe is not right. One can easily find this. You have done that. Wish you luck.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam all


I typed a message then thought of what Umm z said and felt it is better to take her advice.


Thank u Anya for putting the points that need to be addressed. Now it is Insh a Allah our duty to do our best to try and address them the best we can with Allah's Assistance for any non Muslim to benefit Insh a Allah