Jesus In Islam

[Anyabwile]

The thing is everyone including Christians agree the Bible in it's current form is a book which has gone through many changes additions and editing, re visions, re wording, whatever call it what you want. It's a vastly changed book. Christians accept this. You know they do i know they do. But only a selected few people (Western historians, the odd deviant sect etc) have the view the Qur'an has changed and been switched etc as you do. It's not even Accepted by Muslims the same way it is accepted by Christians that the Bible in some way has gone through major changes. Christians accept this, if am wrong and the general Christian stance is the <b>Bible is the %100 untouched word of God</b>, then honestly, right now i apoligise, i have made an error in what i thought Christians belived. But as far as i know with every Christian i have spoken to, they have to accept the Holy Book they read now has gone through Major changes. The difference in Muslims is, they don't. Because no where has it been proven that the Qur'an we read now is not the original.


If the general beleif in Islam when i first looked into it was <i>"Ok Anyabwile, let me tell you about our religion. We have the Holy Book The Qur'an but there has been major changes in it, and it has been altered by men and changed by ancient Muslim councils / scholars throughout history, much like Christianity. We accept this isn't the complete words of God but some of it is" </i> Then knowing how i am, i wouldn't be Muslim now...i'm not interested in that kind of religion. To the clear thinker there's no logic to embrace a religion like this. I understand at this moment i am only reading an interpretation of the meaning, an English translation. But i have the original %100 untouched word of God on my shelf, and Insha Allah soon i will be able to read it. But the fact the original is still here today gives me confidence in reading the translation English for now, because i know it's the closest i can possibly get until i learn Arabic.


There's a big difference there, we can say the Qur'an we have today hasn't been changed from the original for various reasons, and stand confident in that proof. A Christian cannot put their hand on their heart and say the same thing. I belive the Qur'an is untouched and this version Muslims have is the version revealed to Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him). Muslims can say this with extreme confidence, because it's there proven. There's none of this "well it may be changed over time but the word of God is still there" which you get with Christians. No...it is the unchanged book, we belive this, <b>we unlike ANY Christian can say this with our hands on our hearts.</b>


Where else is there to go on this? You are on a Muslim forum daily trying to counter this but you cannot. Islam is the truth, this is why you come daily we all know this. But soon all that banging your head against the wall will leave a big lump. What's the point? Honestly Ronni, what is the point in coming here every day several times a day? It's not to learn we've established this by your tone, so what is the point?

[ronniv93]

Truly it is leading nowhere if you are NOT willing to learn of Islam from Muslim sources.

See, this is what I'm talking about riiiiggghhhhhtttt here. No matter WHAT sources or links are brought, they are just brushed off as being non-Muslim sources.


I give up; I have reasoned as clearly as possible; I have brought the clearest sources from Muslim writers. At this point, it is not I who is in denial.


Umm, I know the term Muslims like to use the "qiraa" which supposedly refers to HOW words are pronounced. But see, that just introduces either obvious and blatant denial of the facts or a contradiction in Islam. PRONUNCIATION of words has <b>ZERO</b> to do with the FACT that the <b>WRITTEN TEXT</b> has <b>different WORDS</b>.


It's cute to call it different methods of pronunciation, but if it's ONLY that, then why are the TEXTS different? It seems to me that is you who iw not reading what is posted. I read what others post. And I *thoroughly* read through the book I purchased, "Ulum Al-Quran." I actually paid for the book and read it and it CLEARLY makes reference to DIFFERING MANUSCRIPTS.


It is not me who is not seeing clearly on this issue, but I am afraid that it's you this time since you refuse to even acknowledge what knowledgeable and learned Muslims say on this topic.


So, again... I'll let the topic go <b>for now</b>, because once again there is no clear addressing of the issue.

[ronniv93]

It's not even Accepted by Muslims the same way it is accepted by Christians that the Bible in some way has gone through major changes.

Perhaps this has more to do with the majority of Muslims <b>not wanting</b> to accept the fact. It seems like it's almost blasphemous in Islam to say that there are different variants. Do you worship the BOOK or do you worship God?


While you all accuse ME of not reading what is posted, do you all actually read what I post? I'm accused of making things up or getting them from anti-Islamic sources, then when I prove that weak theory incorrect and bring the source, I am just ignored and told that I'm not being a good learner.


It's ridiculous to me.


Perhaps I am not learning anything, Anyabwile, because the questions that I ask are beyond people's capacity or desire to answer. Maybe if someone has a phone number or an e-mail address to a scholar (<i>hopefully one who does not just accept tradition for the sake of tradition</i>), then I could talk directly to them and find answers.


I know if I came here with the "BABY QUESTIONS" like "What is Islam? Who was Muhammad? What do Muslims believe about Jesus?" then, sure, I'd get PLENTY of information, LOTS of good answers. I learned a lot when I was at the BABY stage of learning about Islam.


I'm beyond that now. I'm beyond the long-held and long-accepted myths about Islam and the Quran; I am beyond the surface. Frankly, most Muslims I have met online (or in person) are not; they are content with the basics and never question any further. I don't have the "luxury" of believing in Islam, so I don't feel I have to accept the "baby answers" given out. No! I want answers to DIFFICULT questions and no one seems able to provide it.


And I can understand that. It's not popular to go around talking about different variants in the Quranic manuscripts. People will probably lose their lives saying something like that. It's not popular to talk about these variants when one of the main things that Muslims use to <b>ATTEMPT</b> to tear down the Bible is talking about variant texts. If Muslims lose this non-factual ideal about the Quran, then what? That will leave lots of Muslims lost, confused and disheartened BECAUSE so much emphasis has been placed on the idea that it's never been any different than what exists today.


Frankly, it's the Muslim scholar's faults for hyping this view up, because so many people can fall if they find out the truth.


But you can have it. If it makes you feel better to just accept what was told to you DESPITE what the facts say, then that's not my fault. It is up to you find out truth for yourself.

[ronniv93]

Did anyone even BOTHER to read the links?


Did anyone actually allow themselves to question their long-held beliefs?


I'm not saying question Islam as a whole, just this one belief.


If you cannot even honestly admit that these links say that there are VARIANT ANCIENT ARABIC MANUSCRIPTS, then who is really the person exercising blind faith?

[laian]

Bismillah


wow, over 2 pages were added to this thread since I last read it.


Ronni, I just want to say that you are right, no one seems to be acknowledging the fact that you are providing information from Muslim sources.


I will admit that although I would not say I am "new" to Islam, I have certainly not been Muslim long enough to call myself an expert on any topic, let alone the Qur'an which is hard enough for me just to read in Arabic.


But I took a look at the link you provided for the Ulum al Qur'an. The main website containing this page is sunnah.org, which as far as I can tell is a legitimate Muslim website.


In case everyone missed it, here is the link from Ronni that I looked at


Ulum al Qur'an


Ok Ronni, from my limited knowledge, here is what I concluded from that link:


1. First it describes the suhuf and mushaf. I can only give the definition this site provides as I do not know on my own. If anyone else here is familiar with these terms and can give a better explanation, please do


the suhuf refers to single sheets or pieces of writing material which contain surahs. On these suhuf, the ayats of the surahs are in the correct order, but the surahs are not put in order, i.e. they are all on separate pieces and not collected.


the mushaf refer to complete collections of the suhuf, which have the surahs in the correct order and bound together as a book or collection of writings. Therefore, the Qur'an as we have it today is a mushaf.


2. Further, the *correct* suhuf were those written in the time of abu bakr, and the *correct* mushaf were those collected in the time of 'uthman.


(From my own understanding, I did not find this information on the site because I didn't look for it, but previously I learned that 'Uthman was given the task of collecting all of the parts of the Qur'an into one complete volume. Therefore, it makes sense that the only correct collection we should follow is that done by 'Uthman. Someone please correct this if I am mistaken )


3. The text goes on to mention some "variations" found, which are attributed to specific people. One of these is described as being the collection of one person, Ibn Mas'ud. The description from this website is as follows:

He wrote a mushaf, in which sudras 1, 113 and 114 were not
included. Ibn al-Nadim [38] however said he had seen a copy of


the Qur'an from Ibn Mas'ud which did not contain al-fatiha


(Sura 1). The arrangement of the suras differed from the


'Uthmanic text.


..... (the list of surah numbers removed to save space)


This list is obviously incomplete. It contains only 106 suras


and not 110, as Ibn Nadim wrote.

Ok, so it appears that Ibn Mas'ud had his own collection of the Qur'an, and other people were aware that it was different from the 'Uthmanic text. So that tells me it was known this collection was not correct, so no one would be following it or accepting it as the correct Qur'an. The website continues to describe the variations:

In Sura al-baqara, which I take as an example, there are a
total of 101 variants. Most of them concern spelling, some also


choice of words (synonyms), use of particles, etc.


Examples:


Pronunciation:


2:70  Ibn Mas'ud reads  al-baqira


      in place of      al-baqara


Spelling:


2:19  He reads          kulla ma


      in place of      kullama


2:68  He reads        sal (seek, beseech)


      in place of      ud'u (beseech)


Assuming that all these are reliable reports, the copy of Ibn


Mas'ud would then have been prepared for his personal use


and written before all 114 suras were revealed.

Ok, again this tells me that nobody would mistake Ibn Mas'ud's collection for the real Qur'an. It was only for his personal use, like maybe he understood the word ud'u better than sal, so he put it for his own ease of reading. Some may consider this a sin, by trying to make a copy of Qur'an with one's own words, but that is a matter between Ibn Mas'ud and Allah. Also, this website specifies that his collection was made before the Qur'an was completely revealed. So this further tells me that no one could mistake his copy for the real, "official" 'Uthmanic text.


The other examples on this website tell me basically the same thing.


As for the issue of pronunciation versus spelling... it is well known that the Qur'an was preserved primarily by memorization, so in order for it to be *written* (spelled) it had to be *spoken* (pronounced) by someone who had it memorized. From my limited knowledge of the Arabic alphabet, it is very easy to mistake an "e" vowel for an "a" vowel if the person speaking it has a certain accent or a certain way to say it. (there is no soft and hard "a" sound as there is in English, both would be the same "a" in Arabic, but some might think a soft "a" sound sounds more like a soft "e" sound... and so on)


So to some extent, pronunciation differences could also be the same as spelling differences. It depends on how people heard the recitation.


But that still doesn't change the fact that it seems obvious to me that nobody was taking "versions" of the Qur'an as the real Qur'an except the 'Uthmanic text, which was the official compilation.


That is my impression from the information on that website, Ronni.


Also, in every different translation of Qur'an, the original 'Uthmanic text is right along next to the translation, and *all* copies of the Qur'an have the *same* arabic text, the <b>original</b>


No one, not even you, Ronni, can deny that the same cannot be said of the Bible. I have never seen or heard of a Bible that has the <b>original</b> text right next to the translation. So with the Qur'an, any variation in *translation* can be easily resolved by looking at the arabic.


It would be nice if someone who has more knowledge than me would look at Ronni's links and comment on them. But for my part, I did my best, and I hope that helps you Ronni with understanding at least one Muslim's view of the information you posted.

[umm Zachariah]

Assalamu aleikum,


Shukran sister Laian for filling this info in.


You seem to have had better time to read it than I did, as you said SO MUCH seemed to come up yesterday, that everything was not time for to check up. A very good reminder for me sister. Al'hamdulillah.


So if I understand this correctly it seems Ronniv have provided us with info that even more confirms the truth of the Qur'an. That is good.


So I will insha'Allah read this last thread with attention.


Wasalam

[umm Zachariah]

Hi Ronniv,


''See, this is what I'm talking about riiiiggghhhhhtttt here. No matter WHAT sources or links are brought, they are just brushed off as being non-Muslim sources.''


In my mind I had the ***** coming up in my head when you wrote this, and sister Muslimah have already given you the references for this site, and you seemed like you accepted that it is a sidestep from true Islam. Are you backing now, since you say that ALL you links are brushed off? It gives a mixed understanding of your statements. I need some clearness here.


Have you have time to read about how Isa, Jesus, pbuh is looked upon in Islam? I have written down some points some pages up. It is a post that is trying to stay within this issue on this thread.


Regards

[Anyabwile]

No one, not even you, Ronni, can deny that the same cannot be said of the Bible. I have never seen or heard of a Bible that has the <b>original</b> text right next to the translation. So with the Qur'an, any variation in *translation* can be easily resolved by looking at the arabic.

This....is....all...i'm...trying....to....say. Those links are presented to us like it's the first time we've seen them. This is all the stuff i went through when looking into Islam. No matter how many changes, additions even in the earliest days, the <b>orginal </b>is always there to reference when any errors come up. It's like the reepicheep corruption thing. Reepichep will not even accept the bible is corrupted as in, it is a...<i>departure from the original</i>. Then Reepicheep asks me to show verses which are corrupt, when he/she doesn't even accept my definition of the word corrupt anyway. Completely pointless...i'm never going to play a game like this.


It's the same with you Ronni, i could put a lot of work into showing you what i found when i first looked into the Qur'an being corrupt way back. Most of it i jot down, or type down to send to people ask questions find out for myself and i have it all somewhere on PC. But then if i present to you why i belive the Qur'an is authentic, in a full post. Would you accept it? Honestly? Knowing how you obviously feel about Muslims and Islam would you? I think even you know i would be wasting my time.


People have ignored your links because we've seen them before, been through it all and moved on from this way back. They would be referred to if you approached us in the spirit of wantng to learn. If a Christian came to this board and said "i'm a commited Christian but have a question about Islam, this website says the Qur'an may have been changed etc etc, can someone please help with this" I would be the <b>first</b> to show him/her the stuff i learned about the early so called variants. This wouldn't be a mission to convert to Islam, i would simply show the stuff i learned and why so and so doesnt prove The original Qur'an has been changed to me, and to every other Muslim. As a Muslim God saying the Qur'an <b>will always remain in it's original form </b> is obviously a big confidence boost no other religion has If it wasn't in it's original form then by defintion God would have made a mistake. And i wouldn't have become Muslim, because this was one of the first verses i read in the Qur'an. Unlike the bible, the book will be guarded. This fascinated me, because obviously now if it isn't then Muslims follow a God who makes mistakes, so this really got me looking. So yes...As a Muslim God saying the Qur'an <b>will always remain in it's original form </b> is obviously a big confidence boost


But of course non muslims won't and obviously shouldnt have to accept this, so i would be more than willing to show them links that prove otherwise or my own research i found in my agnostic searching stages. Why not, i know Islam is the truth, there is NOTHING to hide, if there was, i would be fooling myself. I'm too proud to fool myself, so i look into everything, even if it's offensive. So please understand this Ronni.


Do you see what i'm trying to say then? You don't even want to learn, look at your last comment here, all Muslims DONT WANT TO BELIVE IT. This is why they accept the Qur'an is untouched, you include me in this as well i assume. How offensive. This is like me saying all Christians are stupid if they follow the Bible, this is obviously not true, i don't understand how they follow it i admit. But clearly some of the worlds most intelligent people must be Christians, amongst those of other faiths. I just think they havent looked deep enough into it, or find the family rejection etc so difficult, or various other reasons, but i cannot say they are ALL stupid as you say ALL MUSLIMS DONT WANT TO BELIVE IT. How offensive.


You really have got to watch how you speak. Come with the right approach then people will take the time needed to go though your links....and it does take time, but if someone is genuinely confused with something like i was, all i can do is show them how i came to my conclusions, which i would gladly do. But with your attitude right now, all Muslims belive it because they accept what scholars say like idiots, personally i haven't got the time for deep debate with someone such as this.


I'll chuck in a bit of sarcasm as they do, throw some harshness as they do, but nothing serious. As i've said before, as long as you keep coming at us in the way you do, you will never get your answers, and rightly so. Only a few have the patience to bother Umm, Lailan, Muslimah, Dan i'm not amongst that type with that much patience when someone is being directly offensive to me (my religion) personally. Most people at this forum know i'm not, and i'm not going to pretend to be. I'm too old school, if someone is nice to me i'm nice to them, if they're not nice to me i'm not nice to them. An Imam has told me this is the wrong attitude and it is, i know it is. Members here have told me to chill, be nice to you but i've had 25 yrs of being told if someone is nice to you, treat them like a King, if they kick you in the shins, kick back. So please everyone give me time!!!! I'm only still a fresh Muslim learning daily. Insha Allah my attitude will change but for now. I've even made Dua to try and ignore the rudeness and be positive. I need to make more.


I approached Islam with a lot of negative things about it on my back as a whole, Mohammed (peace be upon him) is this, as a person of African origin i would have been a slave to Mohammed (peace be upon him) and in his eyes, the Qur'an has satanic verses, there are missing Chapters, the original Qur'an was burned, Christianity will accept me, Islam is an Arab religion, A group of Christians and Jews wrote Qur'an, there are changed chapters. All of this i have gone through Ronni, please please listen to me <b>all of this </b>i looked into, many months researched and came through happy confident that the Qur'an is the 100% untouched word of God. And the comments about Islam were from contorted texts and the results of fear, this is what i saw as a clear thinking person still an agnostic at this point. I hadnt even taken Shahada or anything. So i have to repeat...





All of this i have gone through Ronni


I'm stunned by the assumption that as a Muslim i have gone into this Blind, i mean for goodness sake, how many times have i said how i found this. The arrogant assumption that i'm some fool who takes what i'm told and accepts it without looking for myself. Honestly, you know i am passionate about my religion now obviously, but i would like to think you know i would genuinely answer a question you had, if you approached me nicely as opposed to offensively. I felt the same about you, this is why i requested your help with some posts i had about Christianity a few weeks ago, or a week or so ago.


If you or anyone came to me and asked "Is the Qur'an the original look i've seen this site" I would never say "NO NO NO DONT LOOK ITS NOT GOOD TO LOOK AT THISE SITES, ITS THE ORIGINAL END OF STORY" <b>Of course</b> i wouldn't have such an approach...if someone would have came to me with that approach it would have put me RIGHT off Islam, so i know if i want to show people the truth of Islam, it's through stages, breaking down the portions that people question giving them my opinions, what i have researched...and then leaving them to think on it. But i'm never going to take this time with someone who's coming at me like an offensive *******


So as i've said to you about three times now, you change your tone, and watch how you'll get the answers and the debates you want, but carry on and this will continue as two sides clashing and getting no where. Not much more i can say on this. Also to everyone else, you'll have to ban me if you want me to change how i respond to attacks on my religion because i will never leave an offensive post on here from a Christian or Athiest unanswered Insha Allah. So the only way to silence me would be to ban me, i love Islam too much.

[ronniv93]

laian,


THANK YOU! I appreciate the fact that you at least recognize/understand where I'm coming from (i.e., my frustration at lack of answers).


Now, perhaps, we're moving ahead.


Since Umm_Zachariah has started a separate thread dedicated to this topic, I'll start posting responses over there if that's okay.


Thanks!

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Jazaki Allah khairan Umm for trying to explain to ronniv how we see Eassa salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam. Hope she is getting the point.


The problem is that she went on the same points before for long times, we did reply to her posts. Radiyah Mash a Allah fully explained to her the Quran issue. I tried to even simplify what Radiyah explained. So when we talk we are not talking about lack of answers but lack of understanding because u do read. Or let us be precise refusing to understand.



We told her Quran is not revealed in versions only difference in pronunciations to make it easier for people at that time and even now. All 7 dialects (not versions) are the same. Only differnce in Tashkeel tashkeel means certain sings we put above or under the letter to make it sound different.


I did delet the link. She says it is Islamic link we try to tell her the contents are not credible.


Ronniv u want to check Islam and come here and discuss go here:


www.sultan.org


www.islamworld.net


www.islamsms.com


there are more of course but those are what i remember now


Apart from these sites we are not responsible for u going there bringing info and then when we tell u it is wrong, u feel frustrated.


If u want to learn u have to accept the fact that we are the teachers not u.


when we tell u this is wrong we are responsible before Allah not u.