Jesus In Islam

[umm Zachariah]

Hi Ronniv,


Ok lets see now...


<i>''So, for Joseph to go around telling everyone that Mary's baby was the miraculously-born, promised Messiah, he's practically inviting the King to come and kill the child before he even gets started in life.''</i>


I do see this from another angle than you do, since Islam teaches that we are to put our TRUST in Allah, SWT and also that it is He alone that rules over life AND death. It is like trying to avoid the fate or destiny that all of us already has been given by Allah, SWT but that we know nothing about.


So yes I would have preferred Joseph to be strong and have faith in Allah, SWT and go around and tell everyone what was taking place. Imagine a PROPHECY being fulfilled and it is kept silent about. I DO find that strange.


Ronniv, how much I would like to discuss the 'cross-issue' I will leave it for now, since I don't think it is relevant in this discussion, we are already a bit on the edge here I think, but THAT would go to really cross the line.


I don't agree on that spreading the news of who YOUR father is and spreading the news of the coming Messiah, no offense meant , as similar events though. They are two very different stories to my comprehension.


Truly I think if I would have been in Joseph's shoes I would have been so PROUD to be able to raise the child that would be a great prophet, so people would surely have noticed my happiness and would have found out sooner or later - just a personal thought in this matter


Ronniv, it is NEVER 'OK' to commit adultery. It does not matter if you are being witnessed doing the act or not, you forget that Allah, SWT will ALWAYS see you anyway. And therefore many that did commit adultery during the prophet's time did go and confess themselves, without being witnessed against, only so that they could take the punishment in this life instead of in the coming one. Of course when one understands that taking punishment in this life is a little price to be payed, if one compare that with loosing Paradise in the coming one. Perhaps not such a difficult choice after all.


Regards

[ronniv93]

I do see this from another angle than you do, since Islam teaches that we are to put our TRUST in Allah, SWT and also that it is He alone that rules over life AND death. It is like trying to avoid the fate or destiny that all of us already has been given by Allah, SWT but that we know nothing about.

If you really believe that, then Muslims should never take up arms or fight, because if Allah is going to save you, he's just going to do it. And if it is your time to die, you should just let it be.

[ronniv93]

Also, I didn't say that adultery was ok. Look, I am a Christian.... I know that already.


My point was that THAT was a CLEAR sin, yet your prophet thought it best for people not to admit to this sin. You see nothing wrong with that yet you DO see something wrong with what Joseph did.


I just don't get it.

[umm Zachariah]

Ronniv,


Here again


I did NOT say that Allah, SWT is going to save me because I am a Muslim. Then you are not following my thought. I will try again.


Islam teaches us that we are to take RESPONSIBILITY for our lives. That means that I am not so arrogant that I will cross the road without caring if there will come a car or not that may run over me. That is NOT taking responsibility, it is to be ignorant and also quite stupid I would say.


And the same goes for defending Islam and ones faith for example. Allah, SWT is not going to 'save' or 'spare' anyone, which could be interpreted like not having to face the destiny of death in this world, which of course everyone knows cannot be avoided. But He has given us our life and we have responsibility to treasure it and also to try to save people that are being slaughtered, by for example a tyrant.


Just sitting back and expect Allah, SWT to 'save you' is not the way to try to struggle through life and live it without caring about it, because that is what it means if one would live it according to your conclusion.


BUT when He decides it is our time to GO to the next life, that we cannot not fight against it, since it isnot in our human ability to do so.


Allah, SWT teaches us in Islam that we will be accountable for all our doings and none-doings in this world, so it can never go together hand in hand with passivity.


Regards

[umm Zachariah]

Hi again Ronniv,


I didn't notice the next one was for me too - busy day


Good that we agree on that adultery is NOT okej, always something!


I have been trying to discuss this Joseph issue from your prespective, but to my own belief I am not even sure who this person is, I don't write that to offend you, only how I see it. There is no Joseph mentioned in the Qur'an, and to me it do make sense that Mary was not married when she got her child. That makes sense to me. The bearer of Messiah must be special in every way and so she is according to Islam.


So what Joseph did or did not do according to Christianity is not so central to me, as you can guess, and I did try to 'analyze' this telling or not telling people from a personal angle, looking at this event from a distance.


Regards

[laian]

Assalamu alaikum everyone,


wow this has become a HUGE topic.


I only want to respond to the thing about the Bible vs Qur'an...


Ronni, you said:

Out of all that I have read, there has never been enough to prove that the Quran was divinely revealed. For all that YOU all have read, there is nothing that proves that the Bible was divinely revealed.

I'm sure you have heard before that Muslims believe the Bible was *originally* a divine message, but has since been tampered with, edited, changed, mistranslated, or whatever else could have happened to it by humans. I'm sure this concept is not new to anyone on this board.


As for the Qur'an, there are plenty of miracles in the Qur'an that I think would be proof enough. But I think you are just choosing to ignore those because you want to draw parallels between the Muslim and Christian beliefs regarding their respective books.


You also said,

Now, for me and many other Christians, we actually see the manifestation of the things written in the Bible AND FOR US, that serves as proof.

As I just mentioned there are many miracles in the Qur'an that can serve as proof, and they have been "manifested" over time. Just one example out of the countless in the Qur'an, is the description of the embryo in the womb as it develops. It is described perfectly, with the different time phases and the physical description of what it looked like. How would anyone in Prophet Mohammed's saws time know what an embryo *looked like*? But with modern science now we know, so that description has been "manifested." There are way too many other examples of things like this in the Qur'an, only Allah can know everything about his creation, where else could that information have come from?


Another thing you mentioned was

Where in the Quran does it say that to be considered a Muslim, you have to believe that Muhammad was illiterate?

I just want to clarify that believing Mohammed saws to be illiterate is not a requirement to be a Muslim. However, a Muslim will believe in his book (Qur'an) and the Qur'an states that he was, so Muslims believe this.


Lastly, about Mary and Joseph...


I used to be Christian and yes, we learned that Mary married Joseph, but I learned that they married after Jesus (as) was born, and that yes both Mary and Joseph were visited by Gabriel so they both knew what was going on, so that Joseph seeing Mary with a baby would not think she was unchaste and would still marry her.


Now I have a question... as a Christian, I never learned that Mary or Joseph or anyone HID the fact that Jesus (as) was not Joseph's son.... where did you learn that? And I sincerely have the question, why would people have accepted Jesus (as) as the Messiah later if they had all thought he was Joseph's son? What about the nativity scene story? Wise men were bringing gifts, why would they do that if they thought it was just another human?


That's a sincere question on my part, because that idea doesn't make sense to me.


Also, as Umm pointed out, Joseph is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an, so it really becomes a non-issue for Muslims.

[honeycomb]

salam & hello,


(i hope i dont' hurt anybody's feelings, & the good is only from Allah.. if i did wrong I hope Allah will Forgives me & my dear muslim friends will correct it. )


Islam does consider Prophet Isa A.S. (Jesus) as one of the prophets -- previous to prophet Mohammed S.A.W. the original Injeel (Bible) & all the prophets (including Jesus) must be believed by muslims as part of Faith. Islam does not make any distinctions between any of them. As: Narrated Abu Huraira R.A.: Allah's Messenger S.A.W. said, "<b>Both in this world & in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one.</b>" [sahih Bukhari, 4.55.652]


in the Quran, Allah S.W.T. revealed that Jesus A.S. wasn't crucified, but was actually taken to the heavens. the one crucified was another man. so Jesus was actually saved by Allah S.W.T. Also, Jesus's creation is just like Adam's. he's created by Allah, as a humble servant to Allah. Allah stated: "<b>The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.</b>" [Quran, 3:59] and, "<b>It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.</b>" [Quran, 19:35]


Jesus also never asks his followers to worship him or his mother, Mary -- he asks to worship only the One & Only God. I believe it should be in the original Bible texts. In the Quran, Jesus spoke in the cradle stating: "<b>I am indeed a servant of Allah. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet;</b>" [Quran, 19:30]


Plus, Prophet Mohammed S.A.W. even said Mary is one of 2 best woman of all time. there's even a surah Mary [surah 19] in the Quran, which tells the story of Jesus. also surah "Ali Imran [3]. Check it out if you want.

[umm Zachariah]

Assalamu aleikum,


I would like to give some perspectives on one 'contra' another subject that has, if not been focused on here, at least it is hiding up in the background, ready to pop up.


How come that it may look like the Qur'an agree with the Bible in some things and in other things it disagrees? For a Muslim the answer is quite obvious, but for our non-Muslim guests this may be a issue.


The Bible was an important means by which people had access to Allah's, SWT message for thousands of years. It contains many truths from Him. Throughout history many prophets were sent by Allah, SWT to guide humankind. The Qur'an teaches us that prophets were sent to every people to call them to shun false gods and worship only the one true God. Some of the truths which those prophets taught are recorded in the Bible.


The Bible has had more impact on western civilization than any other book. The Bible's emphasis on the belief in the one and only God has helped millions of people to turn away from worshipping idols and other false gods. Famous commandments like 'you shall not murder' have become universal principles. Many of the Bible's moral principles have helped to convert some of the worst people into compassionate, good citizens.


Obviously, if the Qur'an were to disagree with these moral and theological truths the Qur'an would have to teach the opposite of truth. This the Qur'an does not do. Where the Bible is true the Qur'an is also true, since they agree on many fundamental truths. This agreement, however, does not mean that one book is copied out of another. The reason the Qur'an agrees with the truths in the Bible is that those truths and the Qur'anic passages all come from the SAME SOURCE, Allah, SWT. Since He alone revealed the Qur'an and all the truths of the Bible, it is only logical that the truth will be one, regardless in which book it is found.


When the Qur'an disagrees with the Bible it is also for a reason. The Qur'an was revealed at a time when people knew the art of writing, and so designated scribes were able to write down the revelation immediately to ensure its preservation in written form. At the time people were also accustomed to memorizing eloquent compositions. With Allah's, SWT help they began a practice of memorizing the Qur'an, thus ensuring its preservation also in the hearts of millions of believers throughout history. Due to these two preservation methods, the Qur'an available all over the world today is the same in its original language whether you buy a copy in Canada, Australia, or China.


Therefore the Qur'an can be trusted in its entirety, and a believer can confidently say, "All of it is from our Lord" as the Qur'an states in 3:7. God has promised that He will safeguard the book (Qur'an 15:9). He further says that no falsehood can get into the Qur'an (Qur'an 41:42). He tells us that He sent the Qur'an to confirm the truth of what is in the previous scriptures and also to expose the errors that crept into those scriptures (Qur'an 5:48). So one reason the Qur'an differs from the Bible can be understood best in light of the transmission history of the two books.


Another type of difference between the two books pertains to the specific instructions that Allah, SWT gave. He always gives instructions which are suitable for the varying conditions of human life. Some of the instructions in the Bible, were meant for a particular historical circumstance, and are therefore no longer applicable. Since the Qur'an is newer, it contains God's latest instructions which are still applicable to our present conditions, and which provide the best solution for some of life's most pressing problems today.


And to add some more, the Qur'an is not only the newest 'edition' from Allah, SWT but it is also the LAST and therefore the truth in it will also last forever to come.


Wasalam

[ronniv93]

Hello laian,

As for the Qur'an, there are plenty of miracles in the Qur'an that I think would be proof enough. But I think you are just choosing to ignore those because you want to draw parallels between the Muslim and Christian beliefs regarding their respective books.

No I am not choosing to ignore anything. A few years ago, I heard about a book called "130 evident miracles of the Quran." I thought, "WOW! This is exciting. This book will probably serve as proof once and for all whether the Quran is a Divine revelation and miracle or not."


I wish I could get my money back.


Out of the 130 so-called evidences, not more than 10 made me even want to take a deeper look into it. It was a ridiculous book and if that's all the "proof" available, then I will forever remain unconvinced. Any "miracle" you could point to, I have probably already read about in this book.


It amazes me how much scrutiny Muslims put the Bible under and how simple the "tests" or "proofs" are that are accepted for the Quran.

Just one example out of the countless in the Qur'an, is the description of the embryo in the womb as it develops. It is described perfectly, with the different time phases and the physical description of what it looked like. How would anyone in Prophet Mohammed's saws time know what an embryo *looked like*?

I have seen this "proof". IMHO, it takes a lot of twisting and mind contortions to accept this one. It's not necessary to go into why I don't accept this "miracle" here as it doesn't have anything to do with my initial question anyway.

I just want to clarify that believing Mohammed saws to be illiterate is not a requirement to be a Muslim. However, a Muslim will believe in his book (Qur'an) and the Qur'an states that he was, so Muslims believe this.

Not exactly, as the sites I quoted brought up. It calls Muhammad an <i>ummi</i>, which in Arabic apparently COULD mean illiterate OR one who has never received scriptures before. Remember what I said earlier, the same term was used of Muhammad's people at the time, too.


So, if it <b>really</b> means illiterate, then that means ALL the Arabs to whom he carried his message to were illiterate. If that is the case, how could any of them write down what he said if they were all illiterate?


Does the Arabic word mean one thing when it refers to Muhammad and something else when used for the Arab community he preached Islam to? If so, then what explains the difference?

I used to be Christian and yes, we learned that Mary married Joseph, but I learned that they married after Jesus (as) was born,

Learned from where, please? What source?

and that yes both Mary and Joseph were visited by Gabriel so they both knew what was going on, so that Joseph seeing Mary with a baby would not think she was unchaste and would still marry her.

You say you WERE a Christian? Where did this information come from, then, about Joseph seeing Mary with a baby. He was with her BEFORE the birth of the baby, so he didn't just meet her afterward.

Now I have a question... as a Christian, I never learned that Mary or Joseph or anyone HID the fact that Jesus (as) was not Joseph's son.... where did you learn that?

Nor am I saying that they *hid* anything. It is other individuals who are somehow reading that into my statements.

And I sincerely have the question, why would people have accepted Jesus (as) as the Messiah later if they had all thought he was Joseph's son?

Actually, you should remember the story ([/i]since you say you were a Christian before[/i]) where that exact challenge was made about Jesus' claim. Some people said (and I'm paraphrasing), "Hey, isn't that Joseph's son? We know him; we know his parents. Don't we know his brothers?" Why don't I just quote the actual story?

<b>John 6</b>
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.



42 <b>And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?</b>


43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

What about the nativity scene story? Wise men were bringing gifts, why would they do that if they thought it was just another human?

Those men KNEW He was the promised Messiah and King because they saw a sign in the sky - a star in the east- and they came to worship Him.


That's why I said in an earlier post to Umm_Zachariah that you can't limit the signs of Jesus to just this one thing. Do you all limit YOUR "signs" of the Quran or Muhammad to just one thing?


Then why are some people trying to do that to Jesus?

That's a sincere question on my part, because that idea doesn't make sense to me.

Quick question for you: Can you tell me what made you a Christian or how you initially became Christian and then what made you leave? Out of curiosity; it may help me understand your perspective a little better.

Also, as Umm pointed out, Joseph is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an, so it really becomes a non-issue for Muslims.

So, I guess that's something Christians just made up, too, according to Islam?

[Muslimah]

“And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (Able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted. * Nay, here are Signs self evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.” (Quran 29: 48-49)


Ronniv as u can clearly see the Quran specificly establishes the fact that Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam was illiterate in order to stand as an argument against those who would say he composed the Quran.


Now it is not that I am reluctant to go further on this point but u already went thru Joshua’s thread which contained other evidences on the Quran.


To make this hot debate cool down I am addressing my brothers and sisters here. Just imagine yourself in a class room explaining a math problem to students, one student keeps repeating the same question, if u start mocking the student, the situation will be loose to loose. Since he/she will grow more defending and may be aggressive. The whole situation will not be beneficial to any one. But if u take the time, try to help the student put his/her thought to order u might achieve the goal.


This is on our part. As for u ronniv, it will help much if u take in consideration that we are Muslims. I told u before we are not responsible for what others say, only for our posts here which we back by Quran (our book revealed from Allah to Prophet Mohamed salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam and the Sunnah.


Let us start from fresh trying to follow this manner in order to achieve our goal.


As for why the word Ummi is translated as illiterate because this is what it means. There are other Ayah's of Quran in which Allah addresses Ummyeen with people of the book in chapter 3.


Insh a Allah I will post it to u just take time to read this.


I guess the overwhelming number of posts will not allow u to read all


Besides u r not convinced of any evidence making Quran devine that is still ok with us. we will still reply for others to understand.