Blame It On Me Dude!

[shameem]

there is only one quran. if that is not true, why is that muslims all over the world pray using the same exact words? the muslim prayers consist of quranic surahs.

[radiyah]

Peace

As far as I can tell, that is what she is, though. She has repeatedly leveled claims against me and my character which I have corrected over and over again. Thus, for her to keep saying them with no proof means what? It's a lie.

I think Rehmat is a He and not She, well i dont know about the proofs he has, but I would appreciate if u both don't call each others names, this is to both of u and not only u ronni, we want to keep this forum a healthy one right

What makes the Quranic version true and the Biblical one false?

Because Allah says so, it is mentioned in The Holy Quran, and I explained to u before ronni that we as muslims use The Quran & Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad as reference for us, and I told u in a previous post I do not need to Quote from the Bible or Torah, The Quran is my only resource, u accept it okay, u do not it is your free will dear, did u c us force u in beleiving, take it or leave it no compulsry , so like this I will not attack u and u will not attack me.

And really, I don't see the big difference. They both ate from the tree that was forbidden and they both suffered consequences as a result. Where is the earth-shaking difference in terms of their sin and disobedience?

The earth shaking difference is what your collegue christynicole1974 posted:


And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.



All this paragraph is the earth shaking difference, especially the underlined, this is


not true. Eve is not to blame and Eve did not give adam an apple to eat or whatever


fruit. In this paragraph it shows A God who is filled with vengence and no mercy, is this a charasteristic of a true God? While in The Holy Quran Look what it says:


Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:


37. Then Adam received from his Lord Words . And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.



The only punishment was to leave the heaven and live on earth, The beleivers then will go to the heavens and non beleivers to hell,and that was written long before Adam and Eve were created. So do u c the difference now?

Well, the devil is to blame. If he hadn't come to tempt Eve, then she probably would have never touched it. But he placed thoughts and doubts in her mind. So, she was deceived by the devil.

Again sorry another difference, I do not want to repeat myself.

Neither does the Bibe punish Eve alone. Everyone was punished: The serpent, Adam and Eve. It is a HUGE Muslim misconception that only Eve was punished. I don't know why this misunderstanding exists when one can easily read the story for themselves and see that this statement is false.

Vice verse Dear, jews and christians monks changed the word of Allah for worldly gains.


Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:


159. Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidences and the guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allâh and cursed by the cursers.



160. Except those who repent and do righteous deeds, and openly declare (the truth which they concealed). These, I will accept their repentance. And I am the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.


174. Verily, those who conceal what Allâh has sent down of the Book, and purchase a small gain therewith (of worldly things), they eat into their bellies nothing but fire. Allâh will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor purify them, and theirs will be a painful torment.


175. Those are they who have purchased error at the price of Guidance, and torment at the price of Forgiveness. So how bold they are (for evil deeds which will push them) to the Fire.


176. That is because Allâh has sent down the Book (the Qur'ân) in truth. And verily, those who disputed as regards the Book are far away in opposition.


213. Mankind were one community and Allâh sent Prophets with glad tidings and warnings, and with them He sent the Scripture in truth to judge between people in matters wherein they differed. And only those to whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it after clear proofs had come unto them through hatred, one to another. Then Allâh by His Leave guided those who believed to the truth of that wherein they differed. And Allâh guides whom He wills to a Straight Path. 2, Surat Al-Baqara

Again, I don't understand why this misconception exists that the Bible is so horrible towards women. Why aren passages like Proverbs 31 ignored that say a virtuous woman is more valuable than rubies? Why aren't passages that tell the husband to love his wife as Christ loved the church and GAVE HIMSELF for it ever quoted? Why aren't passages about all the women that Jesus commended for their faith ever quoted? Where does this idea come from that a woman in the Bible is not respected?
I swear, I just don't get it.


Are Muslim scholars or teachers preaching this kind of stuff? Where is it coming from?

We did not say that all that is in the Torah and Bible is not true, otherwise we would not say That Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in your books would we , if some quote special verses or we try to correct some, because they are wrong and are not the true word of Allah.

I call it as I see it, radiyah. If someone keeps telling things that are untrue about me, I don't know what else that is except a lie.
And whether I accept the Quran or not is one thing. Maybe I will one day and maybe I won't. Right now, I see all these inaccuracies coming from this person about my faith and I correct it.

Okay no pro with that, but as I said we want this a healthy forum

Only, apparently, in the minds of Muslims is it contradictory.
Many things about Islam are contradictory IN MY OPINION. That's why we are different faiths right now. Because we DON'T see eye-to-eye.

Well maybe u need to work harder on that, nothing in Islam is contradictory, maybe u do not understand it, but no contradiction, and I would like to remind u we are not scholars we do not know everything we are trying our best dear to show u the truth, if we fail, it is from our ignorance and little teachings and our fault, and not because Islam is wrong. Give it another serious try ronni. And we are willing to help

And I am learning about Islam, although not from Rehmat. To me, she seems to spend more time quoting the Bible than the Quran or Hadith. But learning about Islam is one thing; someone spreading falsehoods about someone else's faith is another. Why the need to keep telling falsehoods about another's faith? Islam should be able to stand on it's own without having to put others down.

Exactly that is what I said before, and what the admin is trying to tell members.

And I do. But you know what? It seems to do nothing but 1) waste my time because 2) nobody seems to pay any attention.
Like that one thread started by someone about how Paul supposedly corrupted the whole Christian faith. I put a lot of time and effort into reading each and every line and correcting everything that was incorrect (which was most of the article) and NO ONE including the original poster acknowledged what I had said. So why should I put forth so much effort when it will be overlooked and ignored? But I still do it anyway, because otherwise people will accuse me of not being able to support what I say.

Well okay with that

See? You believe that only the Quran's version is the correct one and concluded that anyone who says anything different has lied. How is that different from me saying that someone has lied?

Yes The Quran is the only correct version, and I did not call u a liar directly, it is


those who changed the book who are dead now and have become ashes i guess

As you know, I do not accept this. Not even all Muslims say this (and this comes from people who SPECIALIZE in studying the Quran and it's history). And frankly, even if this were true, which it is not, it does not prove that the Quran is divine.

All muslims say that The Quran is one ronni, u provoked this in another post and me and sister muslimah furnished u with what is called the 7 and ten readings, do we have to keep repeating ourselves


http://www.islamsms.com/bb/index.php?s...opic=2034&st=30

But who is saying this? Not me. Not any REAL Christian. REAL Christians seek to be just that - Christ-like. And Christ NEVER sinned. The only person in history to never fall to sin. No Christian makes up excuses to sin. We are looking for ways OUT OF sin. No true Christian who understands his or her faith says that because Jesus died for us, then we can sin all we want to. That is ridiculous to my mind and my spirit.

Well I know many christians who do say that, and many who wrote this on the net, so u c what i am trying to say,christians are divided into many different beleives, some say he is God, some say he is the Son of God, and some say he is a prophet and this sect is the correct one but they do not beleive in Muhammad(PBUH) and The Holy Quran, so no use, if they call him a liar, and deny the true word of Allah, then they are losers.

Who said anything about God leaving the world???

well what does it mean when u say his soul is within the body of jesus christ? or was I wrong in understanding in what u wrote in the link I provided above.?

Okay. Prove to me that Jews called Ezra "the son of God" as the Quran says. I've never seen ANY solid proof of this.

LOL , what do u want me to do ronni go and search in the Torah for proof, which is filled with falsities, and I told u before, the Quran and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad is the only proof I provide, I will not Quote from any other books. The Word of Allah is enough proof:


Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:


30. And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allâh. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allâh's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
9, Surat Al-Tawba


And okay I will ask a scholar about this for u, if u need details, I didn't claim to know everything, did I .

I highly doubt that, because I didn't come to this forum with the goal of "proving the Quran wrong". I asked questions about it and refused to accept that there is only 1 Arabic copy of it, but I never had the intention of "proving it wrong". So, you can't say that anyone gave me enough proof against something I didn't even try to do.

Oh if u dont have the intention to okay, but u keep saying it in all your posts.


well enough for today, I am getting tired, and I think that everybody here try to control themselves and stop attacking each other, and ronn i will keep u in my prayers, maybe a light will strike from between the lines or from anywhere in the world and emerge into your heart have a nice day


Peace

[ronniv93]

there is only one quran. if that is not true, why is that muslims all over the world pray using the same exact words? the muslim prayers consist of quranic surahs.

Because most of the other copies were burned by Uthman. He simply eliminated all the one's he could get his hands on.


If they were truly "revealed" by Allah, what gave him the right to burn what Allah had given?

[Rehmat]

Because most of the other copies were burned by Uthman.  He simply eliminated all the one's he could get his hands on.
If they were truly "revealed" by Allah, what gave him the right to burn what Allah had given?

I just fell from my kitchen stool. You know why? Because there are TWO ORIGINAL copies which you can see in Istanbul Museum and Tehran Museum.


The reason the Third Khalifah of Muslims destroyed "those loose pages" floating around was - Because some of those were written by the Jews and Christians to corrupt the true message revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - just as they did to their own Scriptures in the past. What a did was - He established a panel of top Companions, who had memorized the entire Holy Qur'an while recited by the Prophet (pbuh) after each departure of the angel Gebrail (as) during the 23-years Revelation to collect all available Qura'nic Verses written on stone-slabs, pieces of cloth and animal skin, etc. Once this panel of "Hafiz" checked each and everyone of those manuscripts - the Khalifah ordered all the remaining "written material" to be destroyed -


Did you get it Dude? I guess not

[ronniv93]

shameem,


Your entire post is ridiculous. <b>Prove</b> to me where I LIED about something. For EVERYTHING I say, I am always willing to provide the source of my information. Simply because *YOU* are not aware of something does not mean that I am a liar. Perhaps I have studied your religion more than you have.


And insulting my faith will do you no good. There are many, many people who say the same things about Islam - that it is nothing more than a hodge-podge of stories borrowed from fables and make-believe, even incorporating some pagan practices and beliefs. But instead of coming here spouting those kinds of rude comments, I came asking questions. That's it. But people like you seem to have nothing better to do than spit out the same nasty statements about Christians and Jews that people say about Islam.


As for "walking the walk" just because you pray and fast means nothing. So do Christians. So do Jews. So do Hindus and Buddhists and Bahai. That alone is nothing unique at all.


There is no "license to sin" for Christians. For the Bible teaches that our actions WILL be judged and we will be rewarded or punished based upon our actions AS WELL AS our motives behind them. So, it seems that you are the one spreading the falsehoods here.


Also, please don't go there about what some so-called "Christian nations" have done, because anyone could easily point out what Muslim people have done throughout history, since the beginning actually, to hurt or kill non-Muslims. These bad people who pervert the faith are not to be taken as representatives OF the faith, unless their actions are in accord with their religion's teachings.


Would you say that I can look at Osama bin Ladin and Sadaam Hussein and the 19 killers who hit the World Trade Cetner as examples of Muslims and then make a judgment call about the whole religion based upon these deceived individuals? If not, then you should "slow-your-row" when talking about other's religions.


It's also stupid to bring up the "white man's religion". That is one of the oldest bits of nonsense in the book. Any person today who would believe that Jesus was a white-skinned man is someone who is simply ignorant - not knowing the facts. The whole Bible is centered around the JEWISH nation, so for anyone to think that Jesus looked like a European is just silly.


People are much smarter than you are giving them credit for.


It sounds like you're spouting off a lot of rhetoric and garbage that's just being thrown out there by people who have nothing better to do with their time than make up baseless claims about others and insult other's faith.


For individuals such as yourself, I have no time.


Good-bye.

[ronniv93]

Hey Hollowell, I just fell from my kitchen stool. You know why? Because there are TWO ORIGINAL copies which you can see in Istanbul Museum and Tehran Museum.

How can there be 2 originals? Do you know what that word means? And it is NOT true that either one of them is an “original”. There is no known Quranic manuscript that is dated to the time of your prophet. If you look here: http://www.islam101.com/quran/source_quran.html, you will see that the manuscript at Istanbul is a COPY. Specifically, a COPY that was made under Uthman; not an original.


I have not found any information yet on a manuscript at the Tehran Museum, not one dating back to the time of Muhammad anyway. Can you provide a source, please?

Now, can you tell me where I can find your "original copies" of OT or NT?

That is an unreasonable request to make. How long do you think paper lasts? Especially considering how far back we would need to go and the people back then did not have modern technologies to preserve them. You cannot even produce an original Quran. I’ve looked into this before and I have never seen anyone LEGITIMATELY claim that they have the “original”.


The original was written on various pages, sometimes stones, bones of animals, parchment, etc. For someone to have the “original”, they would have to have all of these separate pieces somewhere and I have never seen anyone claim this.


The funny thing about your “demand” is that there ARE copies of the OT and NT hundreds and hundreds of years older than the Quran, yet it is the Muslims who cannot produce THEIR original, which is not as old as ours. If * you * cannot do this, how in the world can you demand that of someone else?

Because some of those were written by the Jews and Christians to corrupt the true message revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - just as they did to their own Scriptures in the past.

Let’s be for real. I have never even seen any Muslim historian making this claim. If you’re going to say this, then provide a * CREDIBLE * source.

[ronniv93]

To Radiyah,


I don't have time right now to go through your entire post, but regarding the portions of the Bible that you highlighted in red and underline.....


Honestly, like I said before, I simply cannot understand how people come up with the thoughts that they have.


There is nothing in that passage displaying God's lack of mercy.


There is nothing in that passage saying that only the woman was punished. In fact, you actually highlighted the part where the man is ALSO given HIS due punishment.


There is nothing in that passage that suggests that God cast them away forever and never dealt with them again.


There is nothing in that passage that is derogatory towards women. In fact, the sad thing about it is that we see the man trying to make an EXCUSE for his sin by blaming Eve. You don't see God accepting this as a valid reason.


I just don't get the whole thought process that leads people to the conclusions they come to about the Bible.


But whatever, I have said all I can say. To you all, I am blind, but things like this are so CLEAR to me.


*sigh*

[Rehmat]

How can there be 2 originals?  Do you know what that word means?  And it is NOT true that either one of them is an “original”. 
I have not found any information yet on a manuscript at the Tehran Museum, not one dating back to the time of Muhammad anyway.  Can you provide a source, please?


That is an unreasonable request to make.  How long do you think paper lasts?  Especially considering how far back we would need to go and the people back then did not have modern technologies to preserve them. You cannot even produce an original Quran.


The funny thing about your “demand” is that there ARE copies of the OT and NT hundreds and hundreds of years older than the Quran, yet it is the Muslims who cannot produce THEIR original, which is not as old as ours.  If  * you * cannot do this, how in the world can you demand that of someone else?


Let’s be for real.  I have never even seen any Muslim historian making this claim.  If you’re going to say this, then provide a * CREDIBLE * source.

Hey listen attentively - Even when a person make a "will" he would surely make a few duplicate copies of her "will" to be distributed to her beneficiaries, in case the one of her beneficiary get her . And guess what, it may not be legal, but in the US, all those duplicates, signed by a lawyer - are considered legal.


Now if you don't anything about the copy in Tehran Museum - tough luck, because the same way you cannot prove that Christian Nazis did kill those so-called "Six Million" Jew - Did they?


Did I say that Holy Qur'an was written during the "time of the Prophet (pbuh)"? Did Abraham Foxman (ADL) tell you that Muslims had their "Third Khalifah" during the life of their Prophet?


Jews have been telling us that state of Israel existed in Palestine for the last 3500 years. Did those criminal Jews never had anything to write on? Funny though, they were very expert in preserving their favourite pornography, which I still can read in your Talmud and Bible.


Gee, how can you forget that Jews have always claimed that "Ten Jews helped Muhammad to write Qur'an"? Check your "answering-islam" website.


<b>Rehmat I heavily edited your post and we really appreciate it if u stop this behaviour and name calling. We really care to keep this board clean. We are only here to learn and help others learn, if u cannot abide by this rule. Hope u did read the rules if not pls read them, if u can not abide by the rules let us know.
</b>


U can not be alwasy talking on the edge to members, we realize we have non muslim members, we are not here to fight with them. They are here willingly, and noone is standing by the door to force them to embrace Islam.


Hope u get the point this time


<b>
</b>


I am sure u r well aware of the behaviour a Muslim must adopt.

[umm Zachariah]

Hi Ronniv,


I would like to comment this


''How can there be 2 originals? Do you know what that word means? And it is NOT true that either one of them is an “original”. There is no known Quranic manuscript that is dated to the time of your prophet. If you look here: http://www.islam101.com/quran/source_quran.html, you will see that the manuscript at Istanbul is a COPY. Specifically, a COPY that was made under Uthman; not an original.''


To make it very short:


To my knowledge there was one original copy of the Qur'an that the Prophet Muhammad's wife Hafsah had in her house. And then seven copies of it was done of that and they were then sent to Makkah, Syria, Basrah, Kufah, Yemen, Bahrain and one remained in al-Madeenah. Caliph Uthman sent one official reciter of the Qur'an with each copy in order to clear up any problems which might later arise. He also ordered that all other copies of the Qur'an be destroyed, as people had made notes in their personal copies and some copies were incomplete. (A very wise decision according to me). All new copies were then made from the official copy called Mush-haf Uthmaan, and in that way the Qur'an was saved from any kind of change or loss.


One VERY IMPORTANT thing to have in mind is that the Qur'an has not undergone any changes before or after Uthman. The letters are exactly the same before and after. No additions no withdrawels. That you can also read on the web site you recommend. So the preserved Qur'an that can be looked upon today are very old and handwritten examples. Today we don't have handwritten copies, they are printed. But not matter handwritten or printed the letters are the same today as they were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, SAAWS. He read and recited the Qur'an in the exact same wording as I do.


If you truly want to understand Islam and the Qur'an and learn about Islam from Islamic sources from the bottom of your heart, and my sisters and brothers have given you several opportunities and directed you to reading about it, this is surely a good starting point. But this takes time and engagement and it is grounded on a deep genuine wish to know the truth. It is only you that can make and take that decision.


Or you can take the easy way out and listen to second hand opinions of Islam. Unfortunately they are many out on the internet, in particular. But as I said, this is between you and Allah, SWT if you want to know His truth or not. It takes a lot of work and effort and time and sweat to do it. It is up to you what is most important for you - to know the truth or hang on to what you have. The choice that we all have to take. It is a choice of the heart and soul for the future. And in the end that choice is what you will bring with you and show before Allah, SWT on the day that we are going to meet Him and tell Him 'our story'.


Wish you good luck,


Regards Umm Zachariah

[Rehmat]

Let this thread take us back to the "topic" of my original post (not the Sin )


If Judo-Christianity or Atheism can provide better salvation to women, then why are cases of sexual harassment in the workplace on the news media every day? A sample of those accused of sexual harassment, in the last few years, includes: Navy officers, Managers, University professors, Senators, Supreme Court Justices, and the President of the United States! I couldn't believe my eyes when I read the following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's office at Queen's University:


1. In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes".


2. 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives".


3. 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime".


4. 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or university.


5. A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get caught."


Don’t you think there must be something fundamentally wrong in the western society. A radical change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow even worse day after day and unfortunately, women alone will be paying the price. Therefore, a society like France which expels young women from schools because of their modest dress is, in the end, simply harming itself.


In the light of these statics, there is no doubt that Islam has immensely improved the status of women compared to the Judaeo-Christian tradition. The Qur’an has offered women dignity, justice, and protection which for long, have remained out of their reach. That's why it is no surprise to find that most converts to Islam, today, in a country like Britain are women. In the US women converts to Islam outnumber men converts 4 to 1. The problem is that the majority of the population in the West do not know these facts. They easily believe the media's distorted image of Islam. Therefore, it is a must that we change our defensive attitude towards the whole issue of women in Islam. We must stop being apologetic. We have nothing to be ashamed of. What the Qur’an has given to women is unparalleled in the history of religion. Instead of always reacting to the consistent barrage of articles defaming Muslim women, we have to take the initiative. We have to act first and let others react. We should boldly initiate discussions with our friends and colleagues regarding the true status of women in Islam. Tell them how the Qur’an has ended so many injustices against women found in other scriptures. We have to talk to the media, write to the press, and Invite the whole world to read the Quran, read other scriptures and compare for themselves. It goes without saying that the sisters' role is far more important than the brothers' in this respect.


The Quran is an incredibly powerful book and it is our task to spread its impressive message to the world.