Jesus

[Whisper]

Heaven and Hell are both states of mind.

Why do I say this?

Jesus said that he holds the keys to Hades.

Now they're not physical keys, the people then needed physical examples to understand good and evil.

When we die, we will not be in our physical bodies, so this hell of fire does not exist, the hell of fire is akin to a man or woman who is addicted to drugs, who cannot live without a material object. That is hell, imagine telling a person who is cold chicken that there are no more drugs left to sustain their body and mind, imagine the expression on their face, they'd be lost, unable to live happily, it would be a shock to their system, a personal hell, that is the hell of the soul, not trusting in God, not wanting to follow God, it is a fall from grace by the free will of the man or woman in question, with grace we will suffer but we grace we shall recover and so shall Lucifer.

[Whisper]

Allah in the Qur'an demands worship, it is a forceful approach.

Demanding praise is devoid of sincerity.

For praise to be genuine, one must have a choice, one must have free will also.

[SisterJennifer]

Muhammad is not the perfect example, so I follow the Lord God Jesus, the perfect example. Sinless and Supreme.[/quote:672f9becdd]

It is getting old watching you aviod any intellegent discussion by resorting to cheap shots like this. Until you learn about our Prophet from a legitimate source, please aviod making statements out of ignorance. It only makes you, and as Purgetory pointed out, Christianity itself look foolish.

I have heard your theory many times, you don't have to keep attempting to explain. I've already heard it all first hand from many Priests and nuns! If you are supposed to be following Jesus do it and quit following Paul. Don't say we are to be under human law when it is in direct contrast to what the Bible (which you should be following) claims.

What is the point of Judgement day if all our sins are already forgiven? It makes our exsistence pointless, and therefore, anything goes. Even murder or taking advantage of small children! Why not- we are ALREADY forgiven!

You said you are going to be a Priest. I am curious where it is you are going to school? Hope you don't mind my asking.

[amai]

ok amai, i have to say you make me laugh. your trying to prove that jesus is God by comparing Christianity by a greek mythology! yes, I see. Actualy, i agree with you. christianity is mostly taken from greek mythology. River styx is in Christianity and the greek mythology. the Ferry Man is greek for Charon. The Holy Spirit came as a swan and so did Zeus.secondly, as much as i know of christianity, i believe that the example you gave is blasphemous to your own religion. Christianity claims that they believe in one god (which has 3 personalities? i even doubt that christians understand trinity properly), and aphrodiet and zeus are completely seperate.

you might as well as keep your mouth shut cause you dont know how to speak for your own religion. for god's sake, i can do better! [/quote:e0cac076ce]

ok, so comparing christianity goes out of the line. but it doesn't still erase the fact that the no-liar prophet whom you're calling claimed that He's the Son of God.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="241" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>and also, we believe that Jesus is a human just like you and me. he is only a prophet.[/quote:e0cac076ce]but my point is, [b:e0cac076ce]would a prophet LIE?![/b:e0cac076ce]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="241" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Ah yes, another christian going, "it is true because the bible says so". who the hell told you that the bible was a good source of information? your not the first christian here, and your not the first one to say that quote and its not the first time i say this, the bible is written by human hands. alot of the true words of god has been edited. so dont quote from the bible or i will, and if i do, i can make you convert to satanism.[/quote:e0cac076ce]we Christians believe in the Bible, just like you Muslims believe in your Quran. you believe in your Quran, i respect it. but you have no right calling the Bible [b:e0cac076ce]fallible[/b:e0cac076ce] without proof. what if i say "Quran is false" just that and that without explanation, will that be fair? you guys are always quoting verses from the Quran, but did i comment? NO! because i know quran is your final book of authority. i'm not saying "here we go again. Muslim quoting a false book", i know you have a reason to believe it. so do we.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="241" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>and again you do it. jesus is god because the bible says so. [/quote:e0cac076ce]oh geez. why would the apostles go around proclaiming that Jesus is God and He resurrected even if it false? why would they allow themselves to be tortured and martyred if they knew what they were saying was a hoax?

Jesus resurrected. Josephus, tacitus and others wrote about HIM.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="241" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>why dont you remove that blind fold called "the bible" from around your eyes and start looking to the real world. [/quote:e0cac076ce]why don't you? you're accusing me of always basing things on the Bible while you say things because "the Quran says so."

now let me ask you, where did you get the idea that [b:e0cac076ce]Jesus[/b:e0cac076ce] was just a prophet? Quran isn't it?

hn. right back at you.

my faith isn't based on the entire Bible, but in Jesus.

[b:e0cac076ce]but[/b:e0cac076ce], you guys are still on a tight situation.

you said Jesus was a prophet but Jesus(and the rest of the Apostles and early disciples) claimed that HE was the Son of God and that "God and i are one."

since He's a prophet, He can't lie. if He lied about His claim, then HE isn't a prophet. what Quran told about Jesus was false. if Quran has something written there that's [b:e0cac076ce]false[/b:e0cac076ce], then we may assume that many of the things written there, are also false.

but since He's a prophet, then He can't lie. so His claim was true. He was the Messiah, God's begotten Son and also God. but then, Quran is again lying about this so it's easy to assume that many things written there is again false.

there's no way out. either Jesus is God and the Quran is false or that Jesus isn't God and the Quran is again false.

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[Purgetory]

@whispers:

Muhammad was in the cave of Hira, outside of Mecca, and there, a spirit appeared to Mohammed. And then, the spirit squeezed Mohammed very tightly, that he thought that he was going to die. And the spirit said to Mohammed, "Read." Mohammed was illiterate, he could not read. And he said, "I cannot read." Then the spirit squeezed him more tightly that he thought he was going to die. And the spirit said to him, "Read!" "I cannot read," Mohammed answered. Then the spirit squeezed him more tightly. He was afraid that he was going to die. And he said, "Read!" He said, "What shall I read?" The words should be recited because he could not read. How could you command someone who doesn't know how to read, read? You say to him, "Recite!" And then he said, "What shall I read?" And he said, "Read, in the name of thy Lord, who created man from the clot," etc, etc. So the Quran is not the invention of Mohammed. The Quran was given to him by that spirit who appeared to him at the cave of Hira. The Muslims say, that the spirit was Gabriel the angel. They say the angel Gabriel is the spirit who appeared to Mohammed at the cave of Hira , and he squeezed him tightly.[/quote:48d5123c10]allow me to answer you from your own bible.

Deuteronomy 18:18:

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="241" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee,

and I will put my words in his mouth;

and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.[/quote:48d5123c10]

Isaiah 29:12:

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="241" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED.[/quote:48d5123c10]Concerning the existence of Hell, I believe that what you speak does not go along with your religion. I am in the process of reading Dante Algeiri's (sp?) The Divine Comedy and as far as I can tell, hell for him is very real.

secondly, if i understood you correctly, what your saying is that either no one will be punished in the hereafter or that the punishment is just a feeling you would get...? :? please explain if i missunderstood you.

@amai, why dont you quote me or anyone here. tell me where did we quote from the Qoran. Where did we say that Jesus is only a human because of a blah blah verse in the Qoran?

The Qoran is not our reason to believe that Jesus is not God. It is LOGIC.

define God. all knowing? all wise? all mighty?

and then we read from your Bible,

John 17:1 -

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="241" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the holy hour is coming; glorify thy Son, and thy Son also may glorify thee.[/quote:48d5123c10]who does Jesus need if he was truely a god? another God to glorify him? that doesnt make him ALL knowing, ALL wise, ALL mighty, does it? plus, then Christianity would be a Heathen religion if you do believe in more than one God, no? and as far as I know, christians claim they believe in one God in three parts? i'm repeating myself here. try rereading my post. I never gave any quotes from the Qoran, and come to think of it, i never mentioned the Qoran at all.

but now I will do. the Qoran is perserved through centuries. we are the only religion which memorises their Holy Book from cover to cover. you can change whats in the physical world but not the mental. can you change what has been memorised for centauries? we preserve the Qoran and thus it is a truely great source. you want more prrof of the greatness of our Book?

When Joseph said unto his father : O my father! Surely I saw in a dream [b:48d5123c10]eleven[/b:48d5123c10] planets and the Sun and the Moon....... ( Yusuf : 4 )

And He it is who created the night and the daytime, and the sun and the moon. They float (or swim), each in an [b:48d5123c10]orbit[/b:48d5123c10] ( Anbiya : 33 )

Oh look! the Qoran speaks of an ORBIT! hmmm...seams that the pillars of Heracle werent the edges of our flat earth as your bible says, eh?

The hour drew near and the moon was split. (Qamar : 1 )

Even though moon appears smooth and beautiful to the naked eye telescopic photographs tell us its surface is in fact rugged and full of meteoric and volcanic craters of all sizes. The American Apollo mission of 1967 obtained a couple of remarkable photographs of the hidden side of the moon. They show a strange feature, a 240 km long cleavage 8 km wide. The edges appear to be result of striking with a huge weapon rather than a crack of geological origin. To this day no explanation has been offered. An article appeared in Islamic Voice a decade ago along with the photographs suggesting that the feature is the remnant of splitting of the moon by Prophet (Pbuh).

and here is more:

http://www.beconvinced.com/SCIENCEINDEX.ht...ENCE%20IN%20THE

Jesus didnt lie, he also never claimed to be a god or god's son. God does not need a son to forgive our sins, God can forgive us if He wants, and He also can creat a stairway to Heaven if He wants. but that would never be just. that would be, good or evil, you will all go to Heaven.

so now, the bible could have been edited, yet it is impossible for the Qoran to be edited. thus, the bible (which is the only book which claims that jesus is god) could contain false info, and the Qoran cannot. going your style, Jesus is not god because our Qoran says he is not God, and our Qoran is more trusted than your bible not because i say so, but because of the reasons i gave above.

who's in the tight position now?

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[Whisper]

I will destroy the first part now and the other quote tomorrow as I'm in a hurry.

Deuteronomy 18:18:

In the book of Deuteronomy Chapter 18, beginning with verse 15: "The Lord, your God, will raise up for you a Prophet, like me," Moses is saying, "like me, from your midst, from your brethren; him you shall hear."

Muhammad was an Arab, and the Arabs are from Ishmael, son of Abraham, while Moses was a Jew, and the Jews are from Isaac, son of Abraham. Hence, the term THEIR BRETHREN refers to the children of the first son being brethren of the children of the other. This couldn’t apply to Jesus, since he was a Jew.

According to the Christians, Jesus went to Hell for three days while Moses did not. Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses. (In Islam, none of the three Prophets went to Hell)

Moses and Muhammad were born to fathers and mothers while Jesus was born to a mother alone.

Moses and Muhammad got married and had children, while Jesus did not marry at all.

Moses and Muhammad got problems and difficulties from their people initially, but were accepted by them at the end., whereas Jesus was rejected by his people at the start and is still rejected by the Jews until today. "He (Jesus) came unto his own, but his own received him not".( John 1:11)

Moses and Muhammad had power, besides being prophets. They both performed some capital punishments, for example, while Jesus had no power over his people. "My kingdom is not of this world", Jesus said in John 18:36 .

Moses and Muhammad brought new laws while Jesus did not.

Moses was forced to emigrate in adulthood to Median while Muhammad was forced to emigrate at that stage in his life too, towards Madina . Whereas Jesus did not have such forced emigration in his adulthood .

Moses and Muhammad both died of natural deaths after which they were buried ,while the same could not be said of Jesus. He was neither killed nor crucified at all, according to the Qur’an and did not die a ‘natural’ death as could be affirmed by Christians who believe in Crucifixion.

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[b:00012b8136]*opinion substituted with facts by SisterJennifer*[/b:00012b8136]

[Purgetory]

Ah! somehow, i have the reply for that as well, though you didnt say anything about the continuation of the same verse...

Mohammed never performed one miracle.[/quote:72710d3920]why ofcourse, who should i turn to when i need to learn about islam other than my dear friend whispers?

mohammed split the moon.

when there was little food, mohammed brough a cloth over a small plate of the food and almost all his followers ate by taking from under the cloth and there was still left overs.

mohammed told prophecies that are happening today and happened many years ago.

i could go on forever, but i believe i only need one miracle to prove my point.

i dont want to take any credit from the rest of my post here, it is going to be parts i have taken from an article by a muslim preacher called Ahmed Deedat.

These are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblical personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL "Jews" as well as "Prophets". Why should we not apply this prophecy to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus?

Jesus Unlike Moses:

In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to You - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God.

SECONDLY, according to You - 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world.

THIRDLY, according to You - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there.]

Mohammed Like Moses:

Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father.

Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St. Matthew 1:18 ".....BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,(Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST." And St.Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announced to her, Mary reasoned: "...HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE..." (Luke 1:35).

Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life.

Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed's life impossible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11). And even today, after two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejected him.

Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people.

There are instances in the Bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace p.b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, Charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charge: JESUS ANSWERED, "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE" (John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possession of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet.

Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-mothers; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATION.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.

"From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, "into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. ..." The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.

As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an impostor with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such fo ul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, 'why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread',which charges they always levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhummed.

Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross.

Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus in heaven.

I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE......." The emphasis is on the words- "From among their brethren." Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, and as such their 'brethren' would undoubtedly be the Arabs. You see, the Holy Bible speaks of Abraham as the "Friend of God". Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - HIS FIRST-BORN- '......And Abraham1 called HIS SON'S name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael HIS SON......" (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael HIS SON was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.'(Genesis 17:25). Up to the age of THIRTEEN Ishmael was the ONLY son and seed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah, named Isaac, who was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.' (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- 'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves', but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

[Whisper]

LOL................ Tomorrow (You've made a good few mistakes above, so many that I'm smiling)

[SisterJennifer]

You said you are going to be a Priest. I am curious where it is you are going to school? Hope you don't mind my asking.[/quote:4df3a2e7b4]Whisper, before you continue, would you mind answering this question?

[amai]

just a note:

could you please lessen the editing of posts? i would want to hear(or read, given the situation) what whisper's real opinion. not an edited post. if he's wrong, rub it in his face not cover up for it.