Quote:You must worship only One Allah Who begotten no one and was not begotten. Failure to do so makes you a non believer due to which you will face your desitny in the Hereafter. That is it period.[/quote:21e4f89887]yes, i know that Muslims believe that. but can you focus only on that very verse? i can only think of one explanation, "Allah doesn't love nonbelievers." explaining how great Allah and how he deserve our service doesn't really hit the target.

and i hope you answer my 5 questions, so i know what "proper" way could i reason out with you.

later.

Quote:2.can you guys explain to me the process of corrupting the texts of the Bible? [/quote:f060487084]

[u:f060487084]Dr. W. Graham Scroggie [/u:f060487084]of the [u:f060487084][b:f060487084]MOODY BIBLE INSTITUTE[/b:f060487084][/u:f060487084], Chicago, one of the most prestigious Christian Evangelical Mission in the world, answering the question — [b:f060487084]"Is the Bible the Word of God?" [/b:f060487084](also the title of his book), under the heading: IT IS HUMAN, YET DIVINE. He says on page 17:

[b:f060487084]"Yes, the Bible is human, though some, out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, 1 have denied this. Those books2 have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men, and bear in their style the characteristics of men." [/b:f060487084](Emphasis added).

Another erudite Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says on page 277 of his book, "The Call of the Minaret":

[b:f060487084]"Not so the New Testament3 . . . There is condensation and editing; 4 there is choice, reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the Church behind the authors. They represent experience and history." 5 [/b:f060487084]If words have any meaning, do we need to add another word of comment to prove our case? No! But the professional propagandists, after letting the cat out of the bag, still have the face to try to make their readers believe that they have proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that the Bible is the "irrefragable 6 Word of God." Their semantic gymnastics — equivocating, and playing with words — is amazing!

[b:f060487084][i:f060487084]1. Out of ignorance.

2. The Bible is not Just a Book. It is a selection and compilation of many books.

3. As opposed to the Qur’ân.

4. Another word for Interpolating.

5. Emphasis are mine.

6. Indisputable.[/i:f060487084][/b:f060487084]Both these Doctors of Religion are telling us in the clearest language humanly possible that the Bible is the handiwork of man, all the while pretending that the are proving to the contrary. An old Arab saying goes: "IF SUCH ARE THE PRIESTS, GOD BLESS THE CONGREGATION."

With this sort of drivel, the hot-gospeller and the Bible-thumper is "inspired" to harry the "heathen." 1 A theological student — a not-yet-qualified young evangelist — from the University of Witwatersrand, became a frequent visitor to the Newtown Mosque in Johannesburg, with the "noble" thought of "witnessing"2 to the members of its congregation. When I was introduced to him, (and having learnt his purpose), I invited him to lunch at my brother's residence — a stone's-throw from the Mosque. While discussing the authenticity of the Bible over the dinner table and sensing his stubborn dogmatism, I put out a feeler: "Your Professor Geyser, (The Head of the Department of Theology) does not believe the Bible to be the Word of God." Without the slightest surprise he answered, "I know." Now I personally had no knowledge of the Professor's conviction about the Bible. I had only assumed so from a controversy which raged around him about the "Divinity of Christ." 3 He had taken issue with the orthodox believers on this point some years ago. I continued further, saying, "Your lecturer does not believe the Bible as being God's Word." The young evangelist, responded again, "I know" but he continued this time-with the words, "but I believe that it is the Word of God!" There is no real remedy for such people. Even Jesus bewailed this sickness:

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>"... seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." (Matthew 13:13) [/quote:f060487084]Taken from Is [u:f060487084]Bible God's Word?[/u:f060487084]

Quote:In your opinion, what are the signs of the love of a Creator to His creation?[/quote:2b6460ba44]that He gave sinners like us a chance to be glorified like Christ so we may be with Him in heaven.

Ali>> when was the book written?

the Gospel wasn't edited and 24,000 manuscripts can prove that. with further studying, it has been proven that these manuscripts appear consistent with each other, therefore, such editing wouldn't be possible.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>"... seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." (Matthew 13:13)[/quote:2b6460ba44]it would be better if you quoted the [b:2b6460ba44]entire[/b:2b6460ba44] verse. Jesus wasn't talking about "Word of God", but parables. know what the whole verse states?

[i:2b6460ba44]Mat 13:13

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.[/i:2b6460ba44]

though it's incredulous, let's assume that Jesus was talking about the "Word of God" here.

what's your basis to believe it's true? Jesus according to the Gospel stated that, so what?

i thought you believed that the Gospel is corrupt?

stating that even the Bible supports Quran and Mohammed isn't reasonable because in the first place, you believe it had been altered and edited.

Quote:i know that Muslims consider Jesus as one of Allah's creation.1.to better understand you guys, can you tell me how is the Bible corrupt? do you believe that:

a. the whole of it is corrupt

b. almost the whole of it is corrupt

c. 70-90% is corrupt

d. about half is corrupt

e. just some of it is corrupt

f. only the few of it is corrupt

2.can you guys explain to me the process of [b:4eac956db8]corrupting[/b:4eac956db8] the texts of the Bible?

3.what can you make out of the [b:4eac956db8]Dead Sea Scrolls[/b:4eac956db8]?

4.can you focus only on this verse, and nothing but this verse? [i:4eac956db8]Proclaim: "You shall obey God and the messenger." If they turn away, God does not love the disbelievers." Surah 3:32[/i:4eac956db8] say, explain it straightforwardly and direct to the point without other misdirections.

if i were to explain it, i'll just say "Allah doesn't love nonMuslims."

something like that.

5. are you aware of this verse?

[i:4eac956db8]"Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."[/i:4eac956db8]

what's do you think of that verse?[/quote:4eac956db8]

Hi Amai,

Sorry I haven't been around too much lately, things are kinda busy around here lately!

As for your questions:

The Bible has been corrupted through time and translation. As I said before, the language spoken by Jesus was Aramic, a 'cousin' of Arabic. When it was first written, approximately 70 years after Jesus left Earth, it was not written in the language which he spoke. Throughout the ages, the Bible has been 'updated' many times. Each time the wording is slightly different. It is easy to find examples of this:

The copy of the Bible given to my mother on her wedding day is very different than the one I recieved 30 years later at my confirmation. Just compare. Also, there are currently 70 something versions of the Bible available. Every denomination has a different one. I'm sure you have encountered Jehovah's Witnesses proudly displaying their version on your doorstep and that is very different than the one I grew up with! As far as how much of it is corrupt? Well, I guess it must depend on which version you decide to use!

I think that answers your first questions. #4 is self explanitory. And as for #5:

"Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Good point. Read the above. Who was it that tampered with the gospels but the Christians themselves?

And may I ask you amai, What do you think about the 'female Bible' that is currently in the works? Where God is refered to as 'she' and Eve takes on a different role in the eating of the fruit in the garden of Eden? Is this not yet another corrupution?

Quote:The Bible has been corrupted through time and translation. As I said before, the language spoken by Jesus was Aramic, a 'cousin' of Arabic. When it was first written, approximately 70 years after Jesus left Earth, it was not written in the language which he spoke. Throughout the ages, the Bible has been 'updated' many times. Each time the wording is slightly different. It is easy to find examples of this: [/quote:a2a94bbda7]a. the Gospel of Matthew, Luke and Mark were written around 60-70 A.D., 30-40 years after Jesus left earth, not 70. John wrote his Gospel around 90A.D and verified the genuinity of the first 3 Gospels.

b. i keep on mentioning that the 24,000 manuscripts prove that the Gospels were [b:a2a94bbda7]not[/b:a2a94bbda7] edited. why aren't you refuting this evidence?

c. Jesus spoke Aramaic yet the Gospels were written in Greek... so what? John lived with Jesus for 3 years, understood Aramaic and Greek and verified the authenticity of the Gospel that came before His. if you translate Harry Potter to Arabic, will the fact that Harry Potter has a scar on his forehead be removed?

the point is Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the Messiah, crucified, died and resurrected all of that according to the Gospels. why would the Gospel writers and the rest of the Apostles misunderstood this claim when their life rests on it?

d.the oldest known copy of the Quran is dated 790A.D.(800 even). and even in that, there's no mention of Mohammed being a prophet. i thought Mohammed died at 7thcentury A.D?

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The copy of the Bible given to my mother on her wedding day is very different than the one I recieved 30 years later at my confirmation. Just compare. Also, there are currently 70 something versions of the Bible available. Every denomination has a different one. I'm sure you have encountered Jehovah's Witnesses proudly displaying their version on your doorstep and that is very different than the one I grew up with! As far as how much of it is corrupt? Well, I guess it must depend on which version you decide to use![/quote:a2a94bbda7]a. i've read in another topic that you said that there are books that claim they are Qurans but in reality, it's not.

apply that to the Bible. there are Bible versions that claim to be Bibles but in reality, they aren't.

the Jehovah's witnesses people claim that there are 50,000 errors in the Bible so they "edited" these alleged errors then bingo, they have their Bible. it's easy to believe that, but in the 5 people who worked in this project, only one knows Greek.(the language of the Gospel[that guy wasn't even fluent]) all manipulated the Bible the way they want it.

i recommend you to read the King James Version. it has the most accurate and updated translation of the Bible. most of the things written there derived from the manuscript and Dead Sea Scrolls.

b. how different is the copy of the Bible that your mother received from what you received?

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Good point. Read the above. Who was it that tampered with the gospels but the Christians themselves?[/quote:a2a94bbda7]but did the Christians claim that an [b:a2a94bbda7]angel[/b:a2a94bbda7] appeared to them and gave them the Gospels?

we have thousands of manuscripts and scrolls to prove Bible's authenticity, Quran does not come close.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>And may I ask you amai, What do you think about the 'female Bible' that is currently in the works? Where God is refered to as 'she' and Eve takes on a different role in the eating of the fruit in the garden of Eden? Is this not yet another corrupution?[/quote:a2a94bbda7]the female earth thingy is another false "Bible." where are their manuscripts to prove that God is a "She"?

Quote:b. i keep on mentioning that the 24,000 manuscripts prove that the Gospels were [b:71b84696e8]not[/b:71b84696e8] edited. why aren't you refuting this evidence?[/quote:71b84696e8]Because I don't know what you are referring to with this 24,000 thing. The dead sea scrolls???The fact is the Bible has been changed, and that is what matters.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>the point is Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the Messiah.[/quote:71b84696e8]Why does the Bible refer to David as the 'Son of God' and the tribe of Israel as 'God's Son.' And where does it say that Jesus says 'I am GOD?' And who is it that Jesus prays to if he is in fact God?

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>apply that to the Bible. there are Bible versions that claim to be Bibles but in reality, they aren't. [/quote:71b84696e8]What in your mind makes a particular version 'authentic?'

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>i recommend you to read the King James Version. it has the most accurate and updated translation of the Bible. most of the things written there derived from the manuscript and Dead Sea Scrolls.[/quote:71b84696e8]This is the copy I have, thanks. :wink: Also it is the copy my mother had. Two very different texts.

b. how different is the copy of the Bible that your mother received from what you received?

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>but did the Christians claim that an [b:71b84696e8]angel[/b:71b84696e8] appeared to them and gave them the Gospels? [/quote:71b84696e8]Nope. They did it all on their own.

And just to keep your facts straight: Muhammad (pbuh) did not come to preach the Gospels.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>we have thousands of manuscripts and scrolls to prove Bible's authenticity, Quran does not come close.[/quote:71b84696e8]Before you make a make a comparison between the Bible and the Quran, you would do well to at least read the Quran first so you know what you are comparing. Otherwise I don't see much sence in making a reply.

Quote:Because I don't know what you are referring to with this 24,000 thing. The dead sea scrolls???The fact is the Bible has been changed, and that is what matters.[/quote:2dcf46bd50]24,000 things - the number of Gospel manuscripts discovered. though many in number, these manuscripts hold amazing consistency with each other.

Dead Sea Scrolls -

"Probably the Dead Sea Scrolls have had the greatest Biblical impact. they have provided Old Testament manuscripts approximately 1,000 years older than our previous oldest manuscript. The Dead Sea Scrolls have demonstrated that the Old Testament was accurately transmitted during this interval. In addition, they provide a wealth of information on the times leading up to, and during, the life of Christ.[i:2dcf46bd50]--Dr. Bryant Wood, archaeologist, Associates for Biblical Research[/i:2dcf46bd50]

here for more info:

http://christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a023.html

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Why does the Bible refer to David as the 'Son of God' and the tribe of Israel as 'God's Son.' [/quote:2dcf46bd50]the difference is, Jesus has been referred to as "God's only begotten Son."

and i believe David is referred to as "son of God" whereas Jesus is called, "Son of God."

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>And where does it say that Jesus says 'I am GOD?' [/quote:2dcf46bd50]no, but He said:

[i:2dcf46bd50] Jhn 10:30 I and my Father are [b:2dcf46bd50]one.[/b:2dcf46bd50][/i:2dcf46bd50]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>And who is it that Jesus prays to if he is in fact God?[/quote:2dcf46bd50]Jesus is both God and Man.

He can forgive Sins and perform miracles because of His Divine nature.

but because He's a Man, He needs to pray too.(just as how He was tempted, because He's a Man --- but still God)

He didn't pray to Himself, but to God the Father.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>What in your mind makes a particular version 'authentic?'[/quote:2dcf46bd50]if they are derived from the manuscripts.

and right back at you: with the different versions of the Quran, how do you know you're reading the authentic one?

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This is the copy I have, thanks. Also it is the copy my mother had. Two very different texts.[/quote:2dcf46bd50]what are their differences?

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Nope. They did it all on their own. [/quote:2dcf46bd50]*points at the manuscripts*

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>And just to keep your facts straight: Muhammad (pbuh) did not come to preach the Gospels. [/quote:2dcf46bd50]He did not preach the Gospel, but he sure brought a different Gospel.

Muhammad claimed that an angel appeared to him and dictated the Quran...

that's one.

yet this "angel" gave him a "Gospel" different from the real Gospels!

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="311" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Before you make a make a comparison between the Bible and the Quran, you would do well to at least read the Quran first so you know what you are comparing. Otherwise I don't see much sence in making a reply.[/quote:2dcf46bd50]sorry, i don't believe because of emotions or opinions but of evidences.

i can probably be moved with Harry Potter, Pride and Prejudice and Left Behind series but doesn't mean these books are true.

i'd like to see manuscripts of Quran which can rival the number New testament's.