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God has called me - Muslimah - 09-27-2005
Bismillah
as salam alykom all
I felt I need to make a comment here although Anya prefers not to discuss with me, however, we need to first identify what Islam is before going into points which may raise doubts to any one. What is even more important, are these doubts hiting any of the following:
Islam is:
To believe in the Oneness of Allah with no partners or associates
To believe that Mohamed is His final messenger and prophet to both mankind (all mankind not just his tirbe or peope) and jinn
To believe in all the other messengers and prophets of Allah
To believe that Quran is the final holy book revealed from Allah to mankindThese are the basic fundamentals of Islam, this is how we should believe.
On the other hand, what is the goal of any one who reverts to Islam? Is it because he /she found the truth? is it because it is some kind of cool trend? is it a new life style? is it some source of being different?
The goal one needs to attain is as crucial to identify.
Once those two areas are covered then Insh a Allah things can be in control.
Another point, I agree with my sister Radiyah here, actually this was the problem the Egyptian girl someone brought her as an example here faced.
she used to give a halqal of knowledge when a number of the attendees raised some question for which she had not answer. She sought the answer from Imams around here area. The Imams obviously didnt know the answers but also accused her of a false or bad aqeeda (belief). They told her that her belief is in jeopardy for what she is asking. Of course this is not the attitude of some learner. any one can ask questions when they come to one's mind, even if the question appears to be touching on the belief. Otherwise, if the question is not asked outloud and replied to, one is really vulnerable.
Now she became an easy target for preaching groups active here in Egypt, the end result is that she became a christian, escaped from home.
But then she missed her father with whom she had a special relation. she went back, her father took her in his arms, took her back in (she has a problem and when the child has a problem, the child must be taken care of). Her father contacted a number of young Muslims who Mash a Allah were able to talk to her and fill the gaps that she needed to be filled.
Alhamdulelah she is back to the fold.
We need to learn from this stroy. The father didnt throw her out, neither did the Muslim young men threaten to kill her. But rather helped her out.
God has called me - Anyabwile - 09-27-2005
Thanks for the kind words Radiyah and Muslimah, i respect you too much to want to discuss something so close to you i know you understand but we may speak on PMs this i would prefer. However respectfully Islam is not something i wish to return to. I just wish to part on good terms with friends.
I am glad how the response has been to my last post here, things started off a bit sharply but i appreciate the words Umm and Radiyah and Muslimahah. Once again Umm you speak wise words, i hope you in particular read my last post above this one.
God has called me - umm Zachariah - 09-27-2005
Bismillah
Salam Anyawbile
Your message is not clear, you on one hand want to share with us what you have discovered, but on the other hand you are afraid to hurt us. And you want to stay to do this at the same time as you want to part/leave us.
I always expect my friends to tell me what is on their mind, since I see it as a golden opportunity to straighten things out. Misconceptions can be clear up. I truly feel betrayed if I would get to know that someone is not telling me about something that truly bothers them, when it concerns Islam, and do not raise their voice and speak out. I feel they are cheating on me. I prefer to have things out in the open. HOW can I/we tackle things if they are not exposed? It is truly to ask for the impossible.
That leaves two choices, that I can come up with now. Either the person is to shy to confront, but that does not make at least me any happier, since that leaves me in ignorance about it. Or the person prefers to have the believes they have, 'this is what Islam teaches' and are 'happy' about that.
This is not a straight path somehow, it is something else. Maybe you can call it mixed feelings, but it can also be mixed something else. I don't know if you are quite sure right now. Maybe you WANT to believe, 'what you have found out about Islam, and you think we have NO IDEA what it may be, or we have NEVER heard it before' are you sure we haven't? Maybe we heard it too many times already. Maybe we worked through all these 'new discoverings of Islam' either before we embraced Islam (the ones of us that came that way) or maybe we already met this during our journey as Muslims? HOW can you know Anya, that we haven't been there?
Truly I cannot figure out WHAT it is that you have discovered that all the Muslims that have ever lived 'missed' so far, it is a riddle...
God has called me - radiyah - 09-27-2005
Bismillah
Thanku Anya for your kind response, weather u return to islam or not it is up to u, but if others are treating u in a way that is not of islam we have to clear this. And if many matters are wrongly explained to u by ignorant muslims or non muslims it is our duty to clear this up. But since u do not want to discuss it in public it is okay Anya, u r welcome to PM me if u wish, and say whatever u want, I will try my best to explain and insha'Allah there will be no offense in any way. I will understand and appreciate. You can see John how attacking and rebelious is, but he is still around isn't he, in fact we missed him when he was away [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img], so we will miss u even more Anya. And we appreciate your concern as not wanting to hurt us or lose us as friends. So stay and dont leave and u can share other matters in non muslim or the general forum.
Take care and good luck
God has called me - Muslimah - 09-27-2005
Bismillah
Anya you are so fast to reply, I wanted to come and edit something, couldnt do it.
any way [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]
First off, let me tell u as much s u respect us, we do respect u.
Just a side note on my above post, since you ve been somehow itchy these days. I didnt want to imply that you were not taking it seriously.
I was just tackling all possibilities why one would come to Islam in order to stress the necessity of a true intention and seriouness. Islam is not road for jokes.
Actually, in doing so I am taking Dan's advice in derving the learnt lessons from this experience.
To do so, we have to post such comments for others who may come and visit.
Now one more important point why it is essential to clearly identify one's goal from seeking to embrace Islam?
Because since Islam is the road of success, one must expect difficulties and obstacles put in the way. When was it easy for anyone who is seeking to attain a certain success in any area, one usually sacrifices a lot, takes off his/her time, rest, puts much effort, feels the responsibility...etc.
Obstacles will face one who sincerely wants to come close to Allah, either a revert or a raised Muslim or as Dan likes to call us by heritage [img]style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]
Anya I share what Radiay is saying, not because we want u to come back to the fold. No but because u kept repeating this comment frequently.
So if you are open to discuss what u have on pm, Radiyah gave you a green light to do this with her as you requested, I see in your last post you included me with her. Anya truly whoever u feel comfortable to talk about with just go ahead.
As u probably know by now, none of us is here to gain personal credit.
And I do share Ummz feeling of going thru a riddle. A true one.
Dont worry Anya, we are not going to be hurt.
God has called me - Muslimah - 09-27-2005
Bismillah
I thought to give u all an example of what can we hear and may seem hurting for us, but it is not. It just makes our faith grow and feel sorry for those trying to twist facts to turn people astray.
There is this active Egyptian bishop, priest I m not sure (Zakaria Boutros) who was involved in the case of this same girl.
In an interview, to counterback Deedat's work, he twisted the Ayah of:
"O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 66:1)
He explained that the Ayah was revealed when the Messenger salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam called in his wife Mary to Hafsa's house when he went to see Hafsa on her scheduled day and didnt find her. That he secretly called in Mary and had sex with her. And that Hafsa came in and found him (he said caught him), but u must see him while acting and telling the story, which is a true story. But the way he puts it and the way he makes the comments are totally far from truth.
Well this is just an example.
But any way, what is more important is that there isnt a religion that is subject to much attack as Islam. which if it proves anything, it proves it is the truth and growing Alhamdulelah.
I will not tackle the Ayah I was just giving an example.
Actully, this situation is very good for all of us, since it will help us learn more where exactly the non believers hit in order to try and explain.
God has called me - Dan - 09-29-2005
Bismillah
As Salam alaikum
[img]style_emoticons/default/sad.gif[/img] Trust me, Anyabwile, if I had thought that you would have been back, I probably would not have written that post yet. It seemed as if you has said your good-byes forever. I do stand by what I wrote but felt that I was addressing a problem bigger than just your "confusion." I did not and do not want to belittle the efforts that you have gone through nor the decision you have made. I know that you didn't just flip a coin. I feel that I have gotten to know you better than that. Yet, your decision and trials brought up what I feel is an important issue that concerns many muslims, especially converts.
The Prophet told us that a time would come when knowledge would be gone and that the only thing left of Islam would be the Prayer. Scholars, what's left of them, have agreed that all the Minor Signs have passed. We are kind of just waiting for Messihah Dajjal. Upon asking reliable muslims for myself where I could go for a good Islamic education, I was told that there is no good schools in the Western nations. After looking about, I find this to be true in the US. For the level of intellect that you have shown, I find it very hard to believe that a night school in England would satiate your thirst for Truth, either. There are shaykhs out there, true shaykhs, who I have heard speak that make me feel like a retarded three year old. Hearing them speak helps me understand that there is much that I do not understand.
Once again, I believe that you believe that you have made the right decision for yourself. I am not questioning that. I am not sure where I called you personally confused. Like I said, I was addressing an issue that has popped up many times in my life as a convert. If you do think that, I apologize.
"Some people think "its easier and safer to remain in Islam even though 80% of it doesnt make sence" and survive on FAITH alone, this is fine, i would never tell no one to leave Islam, there is no need if you havent lost anything for it, why not. Islam has cleaned up the acts of Many people i knew who were criminals, bad people and turned their lives around, if you exist within Islam as it is presented on the surface, why leave it? theres no need, its beautiful. However its if you wish to learn deeper about the religion and its origins, THATS where the choices appear, the important ones..leave or ignore."
I do take issue with you saying that 80% of Islam does not make sense. Once again, you have had one year as a muslim, studying. It takes people four years of structured education to even get a basic level of understanding of Islam at the universities. True students of knowledge spend years going from one shaykh to the next. There have been men in Islam whose writings and understanding far surpass anything that will ever be produced by anyone on this board, yet you say that you have uncovered what millions have not seen? There are muslims on this board who know more than both of us. Insha'Allah you will raise your doubts with them if you are truly seeking Truth. As you did not stop questioning once you came to Islam, are you going to stop questioning now that you have had this apiphany?
I also have an issue with you saying that either people do not understand Islam as well as you or if they do then they are just ignoring reality if they remain muslims. You claim that you do not want to say anything against Islam but this statement calls muslims either ignorant or that they knowing live their lives based upon a lie.
I am not calling you confused. I am sure that you know what you believe right now. But I have a really hard time believing that every avenue of research and knowledge has been exhausted for you in just one year without ever leaving a nonmuslim country. I have no ill will against you and do not wish you to go away. I just wish that maybe you would try to see if some of those who have offered help will be able to do just that.
God has called me - Anyabwile - 09-30-2005
Dan, please check your PM. I dont want you to think i have ingored you by not posting.
God has called me - Universist - 10-02-2005
Quote: If anyone reads in detail on the science and the Quran and still rejects Islam after this, to my personal eyes, they must be mad. I haven't even read the Quran fully yet, but this is the way, the route god picked me, through science and proof of his almighty power of creation. I've never wanted to embrace a religion, never been interested, but my studies bought me to Islam, to it's science and to a total belief in God. It seems like the natural way to live, it's all actually explained and proven in this book, i find it hard to accept anyone who has read this, the science in particular, can then turn away.
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I am a scientist. Not a musician, rather someone who has learned true scientific method, and uses it daily in my studies of the universe. I want you to know that I understand your feelings, and I hope you find the truth you seek.
I ask you to find the most powerful scientific example in the Quran that you have believe to be proof of "HIS" (Allah is neither male nor female) almighty power of creation, and to share this one example with a scientist.
Just as you would seek the guidance of a learned Islamic scholar when seeking the truth about a question of Islamic faith, I would ask that you seek the guidance of a scientist when questioning claims of scientific evidence in religous text.
I think you will find the exercise enlightening, and you will likely find the answers given by science equally as enlightening and fufilling as any offered by faith.
Give the universe a chance to speak to you through its language and you will be suprised by the answers you find. But close this door and go forward in blind faith, and you turn away from undeniable truth which can only be found in the language of science.
I look forward to your response.
Universist
God has called me - Universist - 10-02-2005
Quote:Thanks for the kind words Radiyah and Muslimah, i respect you too much to want to discuss something so close to you i know you understand but we may speak on PMs this i would prefer. However respectfully Islam is not something i wish to return to. I just wish to part on good terms with friends.
I am glad how the response has been to my last post here, things started off a bit sharply but i appreciate the words Umm and Radiyah and Muslimahah. Once again Umm you speak wise words, i hope you in particular read my last post above this one.
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My last post was based on your first message. Now I have read the thread completely and see you have left Islam.
As a non muslim I support your decision entirely. The struggle to understand our place in the universe is at the root of our conciousness. We humans experience a wide range of emotions. The most powerful being Love, Hate, and Fear. Religion in all its forms uses our FEAR to manipulate our HATE first, and if we conform then we will recieve the LOVE.
Once you understand this powerful truth you will be free. This universe is filled with truth. But to find that truth you have to seek the answers in science. Faith feeds only the emotions. Science feeds the mind.
Take a few moments to see what exist beyond this earth.
Go here:
http://aisig.sdaa.org/objects.asp
You see views of the Universe which feed the minds eye.
Think about mechanics of energy, the power of infinite time, and the multi-billion year history of the stars which existed long before man, and will certainly continue long after we are gone.
If in your lifetime you learn only one idea from science take time to understand the Energy Mass equations.
Force = Mass * Acceleration
and
Energy = Mass * Speed of Light Squared
Contained within this logic are the deepest truths of all of creation. These simple rules, combined with the physics of stars, are the true expressions of God's word. Through the math you will find the truth.
None of this truth was written from a mans memory, by the hand of a man, with the stroke of a pen. No angels came to the scientist who discover these truths. For these truths are written in the laws of gravity, which none can avoid, it is written in the laws of thermodynamics, which none can avoid, it is written in the chemistry of the DNA, which none can avoid.
Only through science can universal truth be found. A truth that can be expressed in any language known to man, which is beautiful to all and instantly recognizable as truth. Its guaranteed to be unchanging anywhere in the universe you might travel. And these truths predate our existence and will continue to be true long after we have gone.
Did you know that everything you are, and that I am comes from a long dead exploded star which cast off the primitive elements which lead to the creation of our solar system, earth, and life over 4.5 billion years ago. This is fact, not fiction and it can be proven 100% correct.
Science does not deal in faith, but through an understanding of science you can develop a faith that the universe is a richly populated pool of energy which constantly changes and at the same time remains very much the same. A paradox which few grasp in its totality.
Few here will share these ideas freely. Science is the fuel which burns at the heart of the Islamic fear of the Western ideologies. Above all else we in the west believe in the truth of our sciences far beyond that which is offered through faith. 300 years ago the United States of America shook free of the bonds of religion and oppressive state controls. And ever since then science has replaced faith in pursuit of truth.
We have a diverse society with room for all. Here less than a mile from my home there are mosque, churches, temples, laboratories, science centers, and more. When man learns to place religion and faith in its proper perspective, and use science in pursuit of universal truth, much can be accomplished. Islam has held hold for 1500 years. Yet in less than 300, science has changed completely the face of this earth, and mans place in the universe. We are only now waking up from the long sleep of tireless dogma.
I wish you freedom in your search for truth.
I recommend that you turn to science and learn about the physical universe from a dogma free, philosophy free, stand point. You will truly be suprised by what you learn when you free the shackles of the mind from the bonds of faith.
Universist