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"What Did Jesus Really Say".
#1

In this book it will be demonstrated (by God's will), through the words of the Bible and some of history's most eminent conservative Biblical scholars and references only, how most of the founding beliefs of Christianity today were indeed inserted by mankind into the message of Jesus long after his departure. Jesus (pbuh) himself never had anything whatsoever to do with them. These beliefs include:

The "Trinity."

The claim that Jesus (pbuh) is the Son of God in the later "orthodox" sense.

The "original sin" of Adam which mankind is alleged to have inherited.

The "atonement," or death of Jesus (pbuh) on the cross in order to erase this sin of Adam.

The "incarnation" of God in the form of a human being, namely, Jesus (pbuh).

It will further be demonstrated that the true message of Jesus (pbuh) was:

That God is One. He is indivisible. He has no equal.

God has no children nor parents. There is no other god in existence other than God Himself.

Jesus (pbuh) was a human being. He was not God, but only an elect messenger of God.

God does not hold anyone responsible for the sin of anyone else, nor does He forgive the sins of one man by sacrificing another.

God does not give preference to a certain race, color, nation, lineage or anything else above any other. Only a person's individual actions and worship will distinguish them in the eyes of God.

God's justice refuses that any human being bear the sin of any other.

God is a merciful god who bestows His forgiveness without a price or asking for any compensation.

Entering into heaven requires both faith and work. Neither one can stand alone.

Muslims are taught that throughout the ages, God sent messengers to all tribes and nations all over the earth beginning with Adam (pbuh), the first prophet of God as well as the father of humanity. Every time a messenger of God would pass away, his people would begin to fall back on their evil deeds until a few generations later they would have managed to have completely corrupted His original message to them. When God's message was in danger of being completely obliterated by these people, He would chose from among them a new messenger to receive the original, uncorrupted message and convey it to them. Some of them would listen. Others would not. However, the message would always be available for those who wanted it. In this manner, God made sure that all of mankind would always have access to His true religion, no matter where or when they lived. It would then be up to them to seek out this knowledge.

Muslims are further taught that each messenger was sent only to his own people. His message was then fine-tuned to suit them. Thus, the basic message would be the same for all messengers: "God is one!, Worship Him alone!" However, the details of each people's worship would be molded to suit their lifestyle, state of knowledge, and so forth. This was also true for Jesus (pbuh). Jesus was sent specifically to the Jews, and only to the Jews. It shall be demonstrated how one of the most fundamental reasons which led up to the loss of his message was that those who came after him attempted to preach it to those for whom it was never intended, namely, the Gentiles. The Gentiles eventually managed to introduce into the message of Jesus many aspects of their own beliefs which ultimately led up to the loss of the message of Jesus.

This book demonstrates how the diversion of the religion of Jesus (pbuh) from it's original teachings progressed in the following stages:

Jesus (pbuh) came to show the Jews how their religion had been changed from that preached to them by Moses and their previous prophets (pbut).

Jesus (pbuh) called the Jews back to the true religion of God sent down upon their previous messengers. Jesus himself observed every single aspect of the religion of Moses (pbuh) steadfastly and uncompromisingly. He fasted as Moses (pbuh) fasted, he worshipped as Moses (pbuh) worshipped, he refrained from tasting a single pig, he believed in circumcision and himself was circumcised, he observed the Sabbath, never having violated it. He did this up until the crucifixion. It was only after the crucifixion, according to the Bible, that he allegedly returned in "visions" to Paul in order to nullify the law he had spent his whole life upholding. The Bible actually bears witness that during his lifetime, Jesus commanded his followers to follow the religion of Moses (pbuh) and threatened severe retribution from God for all of his followers who would forsake a single aspect of this religion until the end of time (see below).

Jesus (pbuh) departed from this earth and his apostles continued to follow his teachings religiously. They too followed the religion of Moses (pbuh) as Jesus (pbuh) had done before them and commanded them to do. For the first three decades after the departure of Jesus (pbuh), the followers of Jesus would merely be Jews who affirmed that Jesus (pbuh) was their promised Messiah. For the first three decades after the departure of Jesus (pbuh), his followers would continue to worship in the synagogues and Temple of the Jews and observe all of the aspects of the religion of Moses (pbuh) without exception.

Shortly after the departure of Jesus (pbuh), a Jew named Saul of Tarsus persecutes Jesus' followers every way he knows how. By his own admission, he does his utmost to utterly waste the Church and to wipe the religion of Jesus from the face of the earth and the minds of men. He has never met Jesus (pbuh) in person.

Suddenly Saul claims to be receiving "visions" from Jesus (pbuh). The apostle Barnabas takes him under his wing, and through Barnabas he is accepted by the rest of the apostles. Barnabas then travels with him extensively until his reputation as a persecutor and killer of Christians is replaced with one of a true convert.

Now Saul parts ways with the apostle of Jesus (pbuh), Barnabas, and decides to preach to the Gentiles. He claims that the apostles of Jesus (pbuh) are lazy, misguided, hypocrites. He claims that it was necessary for him to constantly guide the apostles out of their ignorance into the truth of God which he was receiving in his "visions." He openly claims that he learned nothing from the apostles, and every single word he preached was from direct divine inspiration. The neighboring gentiles hated the Jews with such a passion that he found it all but impossible to convince them to accept the Judaism that Jesus (pbuh) practiced his whole life and taught his apostles to carry on after him until the end of time.

Saul readily admits in the Bible in many places that he was willing to do anything without exception in order to convert the gentiles. He claims that everything has been made lawful for him. For this reason, Saul begins to compromise with the pagan gentiles and simplify the religion of Jesus for them in order to make it more appealing to them that they might convert.

Saul continues to compromise with the gentiles and mold the religion of Jesus (pbuh) closer and closer to their established beliefs in order to gain their conversion. In the end, all that he requires of them is "faith" without work. The pagan gentiles he is preaching to worship many "sons of almighty Jupiter or Zeus" and other such gods. Among them are such as Attis, Adonis, Dionysus, etc. They believe that these pagan gods had died for their sins and been resurrected. Saul now explains to them that Jesus (pbuh) was not merely a normal human prophet but a "Son of God" and that this "Son of God" died in atonement for the sins of all mankind. The Gentiles immediately see the parallels and the great degree of similarity with that which they already believe. All they have to do is change a few labels. In this manner, Saul manages to convince the Greeks (and other gentiles) to accept the "religion of Jesus." This is because, unlike the Jews, the religion of the Greeks already accepts "Trinities," and "father gods" and "son gods," and the death of gods, and the resurrection of gods, and the incarnation of gods, and divine savior gods, and the eating of the flesh of gods, and the drinking of the blood of gods...etc. All of these concepts are old news to them. He becomes a great leader among them and is named "Saint Paul."

"Saint Paul" now writes extensively and gains more and more converts.

Once his converts begin to exceed the number of converts to the more strict and demanding religion of the apostles of Jesus (pbuh), they begin to kill the followers of the apostles, persecute them, and burn their Gospels.

The followers of "Saint Paul" are challenged to prove their claims of "son of God," "original sin," ..etc. through the scriptures and prove that Jesus (pbuh) or God had anything to do with them. They cannot. There are too many verses which declare that there is only ONE God in existence and that He does not hold mankind responsible for the sin of any man. Examples of these verses are available to this day (e.g. Isaiah 43:10-11, Ezekiel 18:19-20, Deuteronomy 24:16...etc.). Thus, it becomes necessary for them to recognize that God is a "Trinity" similar to the ancient "Trinities" of the Greeks and Romans so that they can have three Gods but claim that they only worship one. The ancient "Trinities" of Greek philosophy are redefined with new labels and applied to God Almighty in order to define this new doctrine of "three gods in one." Once again, the "Trinity" could not be proven through the Bible, so the Church began to receive divine inspiration from God commanding them to clarify their Bible so that the "Trinity" could be seen clearly (see for example section 1.2.2.5). These "clarifications" would only be discovered by the scholars of Christianity centuries later. They would later provide irrefutable proof of how, when, and by whom these "clarifications" were inserted into the Bible. In the twentieth century, Thirty two conservative biblical scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating denominations would justly throw out 1 John 5:7 as a fabricated insertion of the church. Many other fabrications would be discovered by them.

For the first four centuries CE Christianity is split into innumerable sects of countless divergent beliefs. Countless gospels of varying degrees of authenticity begin to spring up. These sects bitterly fight among one another with each one claiming that they alone possess the "true" religion of Jesus and the "true" Gospel. All of these sect vie for the backing of the Roman pagans in order to gain the upper hand over the other sects and silence them once and for all.

In the fourth century CE., the followers of the "Trinity" manage to enlist the aid of the pagan Roman empire. They wield the power of this pagan nation to "cleanse" the earth of the "heretical" and "blasphemous" followers of the apostles. They later launch campaigns of "inquiry" to "convert" them.

"Trinitarian" beliefs are touted as the only truly correct religion of Jesus (pbuh). The writings of Paul are collected and today they form the majority of the books of the new testament. The books of the apostles are burned. They are all labeled "apocryphal" lies. The list of "truly inspired" books of the Bible that we have in our hands today was not officially sanctioned until the year 367C.E. The "Bibles" in the hands of the first three hundred years of Christians was very drastically different than the ones in our hands today. Within the span of a three centuries the Trinitarians manage to "recognize" that all of the books that were considered inspired and divine during the very first centuries CE were indeed all lies and apocrypha. Only those books that were considered apocryphal during these very first centuries CE are now recognized to be canonical, authentic, and divine. Those who are found concealing the original books of the apostles are now burned to death with their books. Paul's followers obtain copies of the Gospels of the apostles. They copy them but with drastic modifications to the doctrine found therein. They claim that the apostles wrote them. These books are attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The additions to these books will continue for many more centuries. Only centuries later will Christian scholars begin to see the evidence that the claimed authors did not write these books.

Since the general populace of Christendom is perceived by the Church to be too backward and heathenistic to understand such sacred scriptures, therefore it becomes necessary for the Church to horde the Bible for their own personal use. Anyone who wishes to learn what the Bible says must come to the Church and ask them. The Church then through a combination of divine inspiration and verses of the Bible will tell them what they need to know.

Six hundred years after Christ, Muhammad (pbuh) is born. He follows the religion of Abraham (pbuh) which was handed down to him and all Arabs from the father of the Arabs, Ishmael, the eldest son of prophet Abraham (pbut). Upon reaching the age of 40, God sends the angel Gabriel to Muhammad to teach him His final message, the message of Islam. He tells him that the "people of the book" have changed the religion of Jesus (pbuh) and have altered it from a religion of submission to one God to a religion where multiple gods are being worshipped. He is told that he will be the final messenger, and that his message is to be directed to all of mankind including the Jews and Christians.

The Jews and Christians claim that Muhammad (pbuh) is a liar, a lunatic, deceived by the Devil, and a false prophet. They claim that he has just copied the Bible in order to write his Qur'an. Just as many Jews refused to accept Jesus (pbuh) as a true messenger of God, so too do many Jews and Christians refuse to believe Muhammad (pbuh).

Muhammad (pbuh) passes away. The Trinitarians continue with their burning at the stake any Christian who opposes the "Trinity" or openly speaks about the discrepancies in the Bible. They launch campaigns of "inquiry" to cleanse the earth of all remnants of believers in one (monotheistic) God. They slaughter the Jews at every opportunity. The sentences of death by these inquisitions become so unbounded in their nature that whole nations are sentenced to death. A single holy decree of the Trinitarian church in 1568 would later condemn three million men women and children of the Netherlands to the scaffold as heretics. In the end, over twelve million people were put to death through the authority of the "Inquisitions."

The Church loses its power to the scientists and is pushed into a dark corner. Without the threat of death hanging over their heads, many Christian scholars begin to publish countless books exhibiting detailed examples of contradicting verses and evidence of modification and tampering with the text of the Bible. The ancient manuscripts of the Christian society are studied in detail and slowly, the previous picture begins to come together. Countless excuses are made by the Church and those who's livelihood and power depend on these established beliefs. They now begin to give practically every single verse of the Bible "abstract" meanings. They tell their flock to have blind faith. They convince their flock that they can not understand the Bible without the interpretation and holy inspiration of the Church. They tell their flock that Jesus (pbuh) never means what he says and that every reference he makes to following the religion of Moses (pbuh) is not meant to be taken "literally" but was meant by Jesus (pbuh) to have "hidden" meanings totally in opposition to the obvious meanings. Only they can tell you what these hidden meanings of Jesus (pbuh) were.

Copies of the original Gospels of the apostles of Jesus (pbuh) begin to surface. They are found, of all places, hidden away in the capital of Christianity, the Vatican itself. These Gospels (Such as the "Gospel of Barnabas") confirm the teachings of the Qur'an. Copies of these Gospels have a tendency to disappear mysteriously. They are labels false Gospels and lies written by Muslims. Suddenly, in 1947, the Dead Sea Scrolls are discovered. For close to forty five years, they are hoarded in Israel and hidden from the masses. When they are finally forced out into the open, an amazing discovery is made. They too confirm the Qur'an! They foretell the coming of not one but TWO Messiahs. They claim that these two Messiahs will be announced by an eschatological prophet. The dual prophesy is very clear and prevalent throughout the scrolls. The scrolls claim that the first Messiah will be betrayed by one of his followers but will not be forsaken by God to die, rather, the one who betrayed him shall be taken in his place. The scrolls specifically state that no nail shall touch the Messiah. There is so much in the Dead Sea Scrolls that parallels the teachings of the Qur'an, however, once again it is all explained away with abstract meanings. We are told that the fact that the Jews who lived 100 years before Jesus (the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls) were expecting TWO Messiahs does not mean that they were expecting two different Messiahs, but rather, they must have been expecting a single Messiah with two different personalities. Thus, we are told, Jesus (pbuh) is BOTH Messiahs. On the other hand, the Jews explain that both prophesies refer to past or future occurrences and neither one could possibly refer to Jesus (pbuh) or Muhammad (pbuh).

Muslims are told that when God created mankind, He gave them "The Choice." They were told that they could either live their lives then die and fade out of the picture, like the animals do. Or they could elect to be held accountable for their actions. If they accepted the accountability, then the potential reward will be great. The potential retribution would be equally great.

With mankind's acceptance of this accountability came their free will. God gave mankind a free will to chose to either worship Him or to disobey Him. Out of God's infinite mercy, He then assisted mankind with many factors in order to guide them to His true path and the ultimate reward. Firstly, He sent the messengers. In this manner, no matter how much mankind tried to corrupt His religion, it would always be available to those who searched for it.

Secondly, He supplied mankind with minds. He gave them these minds in order to be able to distinguish between right and wrong using their intellect. If they see someone worshipping fire, and they see that the fire can not hear their prayers nor answer their calls, then no matter how much these fire-worshippers "spititualize" their worship and tell them of the great miracles the fire has worked for them and how it has answered their prayers, and how it "loves" them, their intellect will refuse to believe these concoctions.

Finally, God gave mankind an inborn sense called in Arabic "Fitrah" (instinct). This "Fitrah" is the small voice inside each one of us which tells us "this doesn't feel right." When we pick up a gun for the first time in order to kill someone, we have to fight mightily in order to overcome our "Fitrah" which tells us that killing is wrong. In a similar manner, all mankind is born automatically knowing that "God is one." They must really fight themselves for a long time and be continually persuaded by those who are around them to believe otherwise. This is how they end up worshipping fire, stones, statues, multiple gods, and other things. It is forced upon them in spite of their "Fitrah" as they grow up.

This book goes back to the arguments of the original apostles. We will start with the "Trinity" and work our way backwards through history. We will see that there is absolutely no basis whatsoever for the "Trinity" in the Bible. Once the "Trinity" has been disproved we will see how the rest of these fabricated beliefs will unravel one by one till we return to the original teaching of Jesus (pbuh). All of this will be done in chapter one. After that, it will be demonstrated how Muhammad (pbuh) was indeed prophesied by both Jesus (pbuh) and the previous prophets, as claimed in the Qur'an over 1400 years ago. I pray that you will find this information illuminating.

Muslim-SA@acsu.buffalo.edu

Last modified: Fri Nov 15 18:28:57 EST 1996

NOTE: The above table is taken from the book, "What Did Jesus Really Say". The page was downloaded from http://www.islaam.com/, where the complete text of the book is available on-line.

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#2

My post is deleted for a link pointing to a rebuttal????

Does it scare the moderators of this board to have anything more than a one sided mantra of pure rhetoric??

The above mentioned book has many critics with their own debunking, but sadly the moderators here are too afraid that the book posted will not stand the test of scrutiny. So much for "the truth"[Image: rolleyes.gif]

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#3

as salam a`ala man itab`alhoda Phat

It was not me who deleted the post any way

but links we prefer not to leave it. And I think u r being unobjective in saying we delet or edit out of fear, because u ve been here long enough, and posts are left there, and Alhamdulelah we reply, we have nothing to fear or hide Phat. U may simply bring points and Insh a Allah we will discuss them one by one. Just the points ok

can I call u slim monkey Just joking:)

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#4



Quote:<i>Originally posted by Muslimah </i><b>as salam a`ala man itab`alhoda Phat</b>

It was not me who deleted the post any way

but links we prefer not to leave it. And I think u r being unobjective in saying we delet or edit out of fear, because u ve been here long enough, and posts are left there, and Alhamdulelah we reply, we have nothing to fear or hide Phat. U may simply bring points and Insh a Allah we will discuss them one by one. Just the points ok

can I call u slim monkey Just joking:)
Then I do not understand what was wrong with my post? I simply said "For those who want to read further on this........ " and inserted the link. There was nothing on the link that would offend anyone, unless they were offended by open dialogue on this topic. Obviously theological study is not something that can be done in one post on a message board with no reply questioning it. I also feel that this forum is most appropriate for questioning of such sources (that very idea is inherent in this original thread, yet it was not deleted like my post).

I appreciate you replying to my PM, and you have been the most helpful of all (I apologize for assuming you had something to do with so many of my post missing. You stand as one of the leaders of this board, and I wrongly assumed you were in a chain of command that would let you know what was deleted and why.)

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#5

Phatmonky, let me explain somethin, even if I will get a bit off topic and Dan suggested we better not for many reason, namely for others to find the info when they need it.

I dont like to present myself as leader, no one is leader here, we are all one team working in the name of Allah, including members, to help ourselves and non muslims gain more knowledge.

Only those who volunteered to assume responsibility and help me are given certain access facilities. Alhamdulelah we try I emphasise try to observe Allah's rules as much as possible, if one faulters we r just humans.

And as I explained links are not recommended.

however, u may discuss point by point if u want. go ahead

and u never told me can I call u slim instead:)

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#6

Why do we need another Prophet? If we all were to simply obey the teachings of the Prophets you would see things would be totally different. Each person has to do their personal best, with a sincere heart. And John, I'm sure you realize that the Prophets sent already had to face rejection from their own people. Why would it be any different today? Surely, you can save your ownself, you don't need to ask for a new Prophet to come and do it for you.

Praise be to Allah and may peace and blessings be on His final Messenger, a mercy sent to all of mankind.

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#7



Quote:<i>Originally posted by JohnDoe </i><b>Why was there another prophet after Jesus but not after Mohammad ? Are you second guessing Allah now ? </b>
No John, no second guessing at all, and sure there are many people who come today claiming to be Prophets and I know with complete certianty that they are liars because Allah has made it clear that Prophet Muhammad may peace be upon him is the last and final messenger sent to all of mankind. There will be none after him.

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#8



Quote:<i>Originally posted by JohnDoe </i><b>I</b>

So now <i>you</i> say at some point God became tired of his policy of constantly sending down \"prophets\" and made Mohammad the last one ? Why would God tire of a policy that worked ? We need another prophet today, quickly !
JohnDoe for u to disagree or act strange with all of us here, asking for answers when they are there is something. And when you SLANDER ALLAH IN THIS MANNER is something else.

I am leaving this post here to let u know that because of this u will be banned but I want u first to read this and know why so that everybody else also know why.

the original post has nothing to do with what u came up with.

Insh a Allah I will ban u this evening

BUY JOHN

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#9
so does this mean u need to apologize and we may overlook this, or u meant exactly what u said, because what u said is grave. It is not my problem if u r antagonistic Alhamdulelah i know Allah is there
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#10

Accepted John, u r staying, Alhamdulelah,

u really gained my respect. Alhamdulelah

fine we will start fresh:)

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