Can al-Qaa'edah be defeated?

[Muslimah]

as salam alykom all

I only have two points here to make.

Abu, one is never allowed under any circumstances, according to a valid hadeeth i am sure u know very well, to call a muslim kafir. The Messenger precisely said, if the one who is accused of being so is not then it returns on the caller. U r allowed to hate them for the sake of Allah, but most importantly we need to improve ourselves only then Allah shall remove the unjust rulers.

Purgetroy, I have a different opinion about western development. Material development is not what we value life with. In simple, even if muslim countries are, by your standards backword, yet we still can not look at the west wishing to be the same.

Just take Qaroon as an example. will look for the surat and let u know or u may look for it the ayah goes like

فخسفنا به وبداره الأرض

Look for this and read the rest of it u will understand a lot

[Abu Dujanah]

Allah has blessed us with this Perfect Deen, al-Islam.

Oh Sister, you and me know very well to call a Kaffir a Muslim, is very evil aswell. Yes the Hadeeth you quoted is Saheeh, no one doubts this. Obvisouly its Haraam to label a Muslim as a Kaffir. The leaders of today are not Muslims, becuase of many reasons, one of these reasons is that they have replaced the Shariah with man made laws, etc.

Let me quote what the scholars have said regarding this issue.

Firstly we must let it be known that it is the Fatawa of Sheikh ul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah, in volume 28: page 524 where he has written "And it is known of Islam by necessity and it is the consensus {Ijmaa3} of all the Muslims, that whosoever permits the following of a deen other than Islam or the following of a Shariah other than the Shariah of Muhammad (saws) then he is a KAFFIR, and his kufr is like the kufr of one who believes in a part of the Book and rejects faith in another part."

Sister, Allaah subhanahu wa ta'ala has said:

و من لم يحكم بما أنزل الله فأولئك هم الكافرون

And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, then they are the disbelievers"

Also add what Ibn Katheer said in his book al Bidaaya wan Nihaaya,

“Thus whoever left the wise Shari`a sent upon Muhammad ibn `Abdullah, the Seal of the Prophets and makes judgements to other than it from the abrogated shari`as has become a Kaffir. So how is it for the one who makes judgment to al Yaasiq and makes it superior over it {the Islamic Shari`a}? Whoever did that, then he has already become a Kaffir by consensus {Ijmaa3} of the Muslims.”

[Muslimah]

as salam alykom brother Abu

of course the ayah is very true, however, still this does not take them out of deen making it halal for ex to kill them. They remian muslims, but committing a sin, which they will pay for it in the hereafter. Truly brother takfir is serious, I d rather not judge at all. Well of course I dont have your level of knowledge but still dont prefer to judge.

be on the safe side akhi be on the safe side, let us be busy with ourselves and correct our faults.

[Abu Dujanah]

Sister yes making Takfeer of a Muslim, is wrong. Labeling a kaffir a muslim is also wrong, why dont you condemn both???? Sister you said you dont want to judge, but you have just done exactly that i.e you said he is Muslim {how did you come to this conclusdion if u didnt judge?}

Saheeh Bukharee 3/809 - Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

People were judged by the revealing of a Divine Inspiration during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle but now there is no longer any more (new revelation). Now we judge you by the deeds you practice publicly, so we will trust and favor the one who does good deeds in front of us, and we will not call him to account about what he is really doing in secret, for Allah will judge him for that; but we will not trust or believe the one who presents to us with an evil deed even if he claims that his intentions were good.

So he (radiyallahu 3n) said: "...bee maa Thaahara lana min 3amaalikoom..." by the deeds you practice publicly, openly...

Yaani we judge you by your APPARENT ACTIONS.

We all know what these leaders are doing, wheater is gaddafi or fahd, we know what they are doing. They are increasing their disbelief day after day. Mocking the Deen, Allah and His Rasool, Ruling by man made laws, killing the Mujahideen, imprisoning the Scholars and ordinary Muslims, rejecting the Sunnah, taking the Kuffar as friends and alies, raping the Muslim sisters and brothers, killing those who want the Shariah, these are just some of their crimes.

So the question to you sister is what crimes do you want them to commit in order for you to make Takfeer on them????

[Muslimah]

as salam alykom

u think we are not all aware of the issues u r bringing up. There is a major difference between disapproving of such acts and takfir akhi. Still I can never clain any Muslim as kafir. And I am not here to win an arguement not at all. That is why i think I gave enough replies on this issue while u still insist on the same position.

[Abu Dujanah]

Allaah subhanahu wa ta'ala says:

و من لم يحكم بما أنزل الله فأولئك هم الكافرون

{i dont want to argue or debate, this issue is crystal clear, these Tawagheet are the Pharoahs of this era}

And to Allah we belong to and to His is our return.

[Muslimah]

as salam alykom

and Allah sobhanhu wa Ta`a also say:

ومن لم يحكم بما أنزل الله فأولئك هم الظالمون " ا لمائدة 45"

" ومن لم بما أنزل الله فأولئك هم الفاسقون

المائدة 47

just reflect upon the ayahs and re think

[Abu Dujanah]

Reading the Tafseer would help Sister. (I suggest Tafseer Ibn Katheer, its great)

Trust me.

And as ‘Allaamah Muhammad Ibn Ibraheem said, “It is impossible for Allaah to call someone a Kaafir for ‘Ruling by Other Than What Allaah Revealed’ and then for them not to be a Kaafir.”

Here is what Ibn Katheer said in this Tafseer (Volume 2, p. 63-67)

“And as for the royal policies, which the Tartars were ruled by, they were takn from their king, Genghis Khan, who laid down for them al-Yaasiq, which is a book made up of laws which he took from different shari`as. It is from Judaism, Christianity, the Islamic religion and others. Also it contains many laws which he took from his sheer thinking and desire. Thus, it became within his sons a followed law to which they have been gibing precedence over ruling by the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Messenger. Whoever does this is a kaafir that must be fought until he returns to the rule of Allah and His Messenger.”

[abdussamed]

Salam Alaykum... Sorry I join in with my small knowledge about islam. If any1 isnt responsible for any kill another, why he/she should be killed? What is Jihad in basis of Quran and sunnah? wassalam

[Purgetroy]

they shouldnt be killed. thats the whole point.

disgracfuly, Abu Dujana disagrees!