Womens status in Islam.

[Muslimah]

As Salam a`alaman itaba`alhoda

JohnDoe, sure there are Muslims who break the rules, and others who see them too much. But as u ask, we introduce the rules as they are supposed to be. Why do u think there is Heavens and Hell, why do u think there is reward and punishment? Is it because we are all very good and pious? I just hope so. Our lives would have been easier.

[SisterJennifer]

<i>Originally posted by JohnDoe </i><b>I know you are going to counter that in a true Islamic male/female relationship it wouldn't be an issue but I counter your counter with if that is the case then why have it all ? But on that note, we can agree to disagree ?  </b>

Women are the weakness of men, it is thier nature, something they crave more strongly than a women to a man. The wife is for her husband and the husband for the wife. If the wife is always coming with the famous excuses such as I'm tired, I have a headache, etc.. the husband may eventually feel abandonded, and seek comfort somewhere else. A husband and wife are a protection for each other. Likewise, a husband is expected to gentle and caring to his wife, someone she knows she can go to to find emotional comfort, it is just that between the sexes we find our emotional comfort in a slightly different manner. It's a give and take for both. I hope that makes sense.

[Dan]

Bismillah

"'Women are the weakness of men, it is thier nature, something they crave more strongly than a women to a man.'

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Not true."

It may not be true for you but it is definately a weakness that men suffer. How many men do you know who think with their smaller brain? I used to know alot of them. It was not because they were stupid people either. They got straight A's in college and were members of many groups and commitees but when it came to women, wa Allah, they would really screw up their lives. Look at history as well. There were men of great standing who blew it all for a woman or women. The Helen of Troy thing. Musicians almost have a degree in it. Several American presidents some we know of and others who kept it more secret. If this statement is still untrue, please provide some verification for your statement.

"But Mohammad took care of that by allowing the husband to take more wives, concubines, slave girls, maidens etc"

I must say that Muhammad did not take care of anything. It was Allah. Nonmuslims love to jump on the multiple wives thing without asking about any conditions. First you can only have multiple wives if you are able to treat them all equally without one feeling like another is getting preferential treatment. In the Qur'an it says that this is impossible so one wife is the best. I must highlight this as being the number one condition. Out of thousands of muslims that I have known, I can only think of a couple of cases when a brother was crazy enough to have more than one wife. Now I will provide reasons why in certain instances that it is allowed. Looking at the population, we can see that women out number men. So a woman should not be allowed to have the comfort of a family because the pool is drained? In the time of the Prophet, there was no retirement funds or benefits for families of the deceased. So a woman was allowed to marry a man who would have to take care of her and, if applicable, her children financially.

"Maybe the husband is no good at it, sorry to be a bit crude here, but maybe he is just not getting the job done."

No crudeness here. In Islam, the man is commanded to make sure that his wife is satisfied as well. Foreplay is encouraged and minute men are frowned upon. Islam recognizes that it is not only the man who can stray but a women as well. Catering to each other's needs is the theme really. There are times when after a hardday's work, the furthest thing from a man's mind is sex. Good food and good rest are number one. Yet if the wife is in the mood, he must fulfill his obligations as well. The time may come when the roles are reversed. Also each spouse must be sensitive to the needs of the other. The case where one is really tired, the other should be caring and realize what is most important at the time. I see it as a golden rule situation. "If I was that tired, would I be in the mood?"

"Marriage is a made up institution."

As I see it, according to you views, everything is made up then, correct? I see no evidence to back up this statement at all. Even the earliest histories recognize some form of marriage. All religions include it as a great ceremony of bonding. Governments from across time and space recognize the importance of marriage. If not from a theological aspect, definately from a sociological one. If you want this argument to pan out, then you will have to do some research in sociology which includes text reading which I know you hate.

Once again, appreciate your style of dialogue that you are taking.

Peace.

[Dan]

Bismillah

"However, I think that women should be offered the same privelige. If a wman wants more than 1 husband, you go girl !"

I recently listened to a lecture addressing this issue but by no means do I claim comprehensive knowledge of this or any other Islamic topic. In terms of solely sexual relations this may seem fair but in reality the number one reason for sex is to procreate. If a man chooses to have more than one wife, then the resulting children will have no problem identifying who their parents are. While if a woman has more than one husband, the father is not 100% determined. Yes we have DNA testing (which still does not give a 100% accurate answer) but the majority of the world does not even have phones in the home. Islam is a complete religion no matter who you are. It is for the elite and the down trodden. So one rule applies to all. We can not take exeptions for some as a rule for all. Is that fair? It only serves to divide rather than bring people together which is a goal of Islam. (please disregard any muslims who go against this. I am speaking of Islam the ideal.) In our society today, we can see the results of children without parents. A person robbed of their heritage is a crime against our humanity. Ask an African American how they feel about the fact that they carry not the name of their family but that of another. I don't know about Scotland but here there is an obsession, or at least a hobby, for people to trace their ancestral roots. I do not just mean minorities either. My family does it and several of my ex-school mates had family members doing it as well.

What good does it do someone in one country if the population is skewed differently in another? We may have the ability to travel almost at will from one region to another but most people do not.

I was only relating a supposed fact from an anthropologist that I knew a couple years ago who stated that gradually the percentage of women is growing.

Why did you get married if is just a piece of paper? I know of governmental benefits here. Is it the same?

"You would need to read up on Desmond Morris for details on this"

Why would I do any extra reading when you will not do any? It is a two way street. If you want me to repeat some of the suggested readings then I will.

Astaghfirullah

Peace

[Dan]

Bismillah

"Could it be that in muslim countries/societies girl babies are a burden?"

"muslim countries/societies" I do not agree with this phrase because if it was truly a muslim country/society they would know that it is FORBIDDEN in Islam to kill any child either because you do not want it or you do not think you can care for it. Before Islam it was a practice of some arabs to bury their newborn daughters in the desert. This was revealed to Muhammad to be one of the greatest sins. This practice was and is reviled and forbidden.

I cannot help that muslim people can be crazy also. There are over a billion who claim Islam as their religion. There are going to be some flys in the ointment like any high population society or country. We have women here in America (nonmuslim) who will kill their children so they can be with their boyfriends. There are also serial killers and psychos. It does not mean that Americans condone this practices. One's culture is not one's religion. Italians and Mexicans have different cultures but both are Catholic societies on a whole. Yet we see a lot of variance between the two.

I am not sure if I answered the question or addressed the issue to your liking so please let me know.

Astaghfirullah

Peace

[Dan]

Bismillah

"In terms of solely sexual relations this may seem fair but in reality the number one reason for sex is to procreate.

Erm, not so much nowadays right enough. It would seem that procreation is a side effect."

The only reason that this has changed is because of people's perspective. It does not change the science of it. Even if a person does not believe in God, one must admit that the feeling of sex is secondary to the fact that its number one purpose is to make sure more humans exist. The feeling just makes sure that people do it. This is getting off the topic though so I will stop here.

"I can see the logic in this but I don't really care either way how many wives/husbands a person has. I think it is just not for me."

It is also not for most people, me included. One husband or wife is enough for one to figure out that one is enough. Who wants marital stereo?

"We just felt we wanted to start a family and the "right" thing to do was get married. Maybe I am a little old fashioned and there are tax advanages !"

This is to what I was alluding. There is an innate desire for couples to somehow show one another that they are commited in a greater manner than just dating. It is just natural. Even when Africans were enslaved in America with the owners trying to rid them of any aspect of humanity, they preformed rituals such as "jumping the broom" to show commitment to one another.

According to Islam, that "mother" (I use the term loosely) is one hundred percent wrong. I do not know what occurred in her mind to justify that action. I know that arab tribes before Muhammad had a great sense of honor to the point where blood would be shed over it. Maybe that has carried on to the present day. Anyone?

Peace

[Muslimah]

As Salam A`alaman itaba`alhoda

JohnDoe, let me give u some feed back on a main principle in Islam. Yes I do believe there is heaven and Hell or else our lives would be useless. A Muslim’s life start from birth ending to death is nothing but a short trip in preparation for the eternal landing. In other words, what ever difficulties and mischief u may encounter in life is not really effective, since it is only temporary, shall end by being in your grave, versus what could be eternal which is the final destination.

Based on this, you may encounter poverty, illness, loss of business, loss of children, or any loved ones, only to name a few of the various problems a person may face in this life. Part of it may be an unhappy marriage. In case a woman is emotionally or sexually abused, she has two options, either to divorce or just adopt patience looking for the reward in the life after. More explanation, in case a woman is tested with a bad husband who may enforce himself on her, which is totally unlikely if he is religious enough, she may just ask for divorce, or accept and think of only pleasing Allah which will make the whole situation much easier for her. Of course not all Muslims can endure difficulties of life and perceive it the way I presented it. I am as usual explaining the main concepts. It is even in Quran, that Allah Shall test His servants in such a manner and promised those who are patient with major reward.

[Dan]

Bismillah

He's baaaack. How've you been?

Once again, you are using an exception to validate an entire argument. The main reason that these people are feeling these urges is do to hormones. Hormones that they have no control over the release of. These hormones make sure that procreation occurs and thus survival of the species. The feelings that result are solely secondarly. Now a person may choose to make those feelings primary and have procreation not even be part of the act. It does not change the origin of those urges and feelings.

Peace

[Dan]

Bismillah

Start over. We are in two completely different places. I am not talking about Islam at all and its take on this topic.

There was a point that I was trying to make (and I forgot why). Even if a person does not believe in God, one cannot deny that the primary purpose of sex is the procreation of the species. That is all. The feelings and urges that result are to make sure that this occurs. No sex. No more humans. Right? That was the only point.

From the standpoint of Islam, it also serves to create a bond and results in pleasure but in a lawful manner inside marriage. That way if any children result from this relationship, there is a better chance that they will be provided for.

"So, can I interpret that a womans role in Islam is soley to produce kids ?"

I would hope by now that you would know better than this. If you ARE serious, I will let a woman answer just to show that she can do more than just make babies.

"Is contraception allowed ?"

Depends on the type. I know that some Companions used the Early Withdrawal method and the Prophet allowed this by not forbidding it. I heard that barriers may be used but I am unsure about this one. Anyone else know? As muslims though we are told to not worry about how many children we have because Allah will always Provide for us.

Peace

[SisterJennifer]

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b>Bismillah</b>

I heard that barriers may be used but I am unsure about this one. Anyone else know?

Peace

Asalaamu alikum and Peace be with you,

To the best of my knowledge through what I have read and listening to various lectures, a man may use a certain form of "barrier" as you said, however a permanant thing such as having the tubes tied is not permissable.

And John Doe, I hope you had a nice vacation.

You asked about unwanted daughters. Maybe you have a misconception about this subject? Before Islam the pagans of Mecca often barried baby girls alive, Islam did away with this practice. I have not heard ever of such a thing in Islam as daughters being unwanted. The Prophet peace be upon him had many daughters.

Also I do not think it is a cop-out to say that Allah will provide for a growing family. It is not the accumulation of material things such as a luxury apartment that is being spoken of, but rather that the basic needs will be met.

Take care,

~Jennifer