Validity of the Noble Quran

[Muslimah]

As Salam a`alaman itaba`alhoda

U know what Habib, I have a comment and suggestion. I have a feeling that u r in the stage where u totally believe that all this is true. Yet unable to admit it to yourself. I know this feeling. U know it is true, but this will entail certain committements which u see as hard to abide by. U can not think of praying 5 times a day, not having sex when u feel like but rather only in marriage, not having a drop of wine. If u didn't know that this is the truth u wouldn't try hard to invalidate it. Simply to prove to yourself that no it is not true it is not true. That is ok Habib.

The suggestion is let us start a new thread or I have some questions I think it will better to have them on a new thread, how about that?? If u agree just say yes here Insh aAllah I will start the thread. ok

[Guest]

No I don't think you understood Mislimah. You have (all) mostly been tolerant of my questions on here which makes me think you are a decent enough bunch of people but there were too many things that alarmed me about Islam. In its extreme form, radical Islam is dangerous. I see it being used as an excuse to deny women their basic human rights specifically and human rights in general. It is totally backward and incompatable with a modern world, freedom and democracy. I believe the president of Pakistan said just that a few days ago. I don't believe that the Qu'ran is a divine book at all, far from it. I think it was made up by a clever, manipulative cult leader, Mohammad.

I am absolutely appalled to hear of the human rights abuses made in the name of Islam. I can not fathom how anyone could agree in Sharia law, particularly when it comes to stoning someone to death. This is absurd, grotesque and lacks the compassion that I expected from a "religion of peace". Because Iran is considered a fairly moderate (compared to Saudie) I looked around their shenanegins and I was astonished to find the age of consent for a girl to get married was 14 ! Which was recently increased from 9 (and we all know why this is) but younger still if the parents approve so a girl of 9 can be married.

Sad, sad, sad.

[Muslimah]

Well Alhamdulelah, we fulfilled our duty, and btw, last evening I thought to myself no need to post my questions for u. See we never try to push anyone to Islam. Quran say: No compulsion in religion. Matter of fact it is a gift.

U continue the way u feel and of course u r most welcome to stay with us here.

But one last thing Islam is the true religion, it calls for the oneness of Allah, u worship only Allah Who Created skies and earth and all other. Islam means full submission to Allah.

And Quran is a divine revealation Habib to Mohamed PAPBUH the last Messenger from Allah.

[Dan]

Bismillah

Unfortunately, you hear about stonings and other aspcects of Shariah from nonmuslims or even muslims who do not know in what context these type of punishments should be meted out.

First of all, there is no Islamic government on Earth. None. Not a single country with muslims in it has a leader or leaders who impliment the Islamic laws. As is the case of most leaders, they are only staying in power by however they need to.

In the example of stoning for adultery, this seemed extreme to me. Yet once I learned in what context it is implimented, it did not seem as it did before. First four witnesses must observe the act. The observation of that act must be the equivelent of the bucket decending into the well. We are talking about a type of observation that will not happen under any circumstances, unless there are some serious defects of character in all the parties involved and then they are not really that great of witnesses.

If one person comes across people in this act then it is their job to cover up their shame. As muslims were are supposed help hide the shame of one another from others. It allows people to repent to Allah and not be labeled as a fornicator. If you have ever been labeled by others with an unpleasant name, you know how hard it can be to shake that stigma.

A scholar of Islam was talking about two incidents of stoning that occurred in the lifetime of the Prophet.

First: A man committed adultery and felt guilty so he went to talk to a companion of the Prophet, Abu Bakr, and told him what he did. Abu Bakr asked if he had told anyone. The man replied in the negative. Abu Bakr said to not tell anyone else and make repentance to Allah. The man was unsatisfied with this answer so he went to another close companion of the Prophet, Umar.

After hearing his story, Umar asked if he had told anyone. The man said, "Yes. Abu Bakr." Umar asked the man what Abu Bakr said. "He said for me to make repentance and not tell anyone," the man replied. "Then why are you telling me?" Umar asked. "Do not tell anyone else and make repentance."

The man's heart was still uneasy so he went to the Prophet who according to the laws of Allah had the punishment carried out.

A woman had a child by adultery and raised the child for two years. Finally guilt got to her and she went to the Prophet to have the sentence carried out. After she was dead, a person made a comment about her lack of morals. Muhammad replied, "Don't do that. If this woman's blood was spilt all over the city, everyone would be forgiven." Meaning that if everyone made repentance like she did then all their sins would be forgiven.

In each case, the people who committed the sins sought out the punishment on their own accord. Even those closest and dearest to the Prophet wanted to help these people make repentance.

When stoning is carried out, the person enters the circle of thier own accord and are not tied up. If at any point, the person leaves the circle then the stoning stops.

Also, when a person is stoned here on earth, then the punishment in the Afterlife for that sin is not applied. The person was already punished for that sin. That was a reason why the people sought out that punishment. They did not want to suffer in the Afterlife.

In Afganistan, which was allegedly an Islamic government, many problems and conflicts with Islamic laws arose in that situation as also. Women were refused the right of education which has no place in Islam. The Prophet made specific time, I guess what we would call class time or school, for women to get educated.

In Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive. I do not know where this come from? Women rode camels at the time of the Prophet. I can continue but the ways in which Islamic law is not followed is quite extensive in every country.

By reading some Qur'an and some hadith, this makes no one a scholar of Islamic law. Just as there are lawyers so does Islam need people educated in the Shariah in order to fully understand the particulars.

I am in no way qualified to give extensive answers on fihq or shariah.

"I see it being used as an excuse to deny women their basic human rights specifically and human rights in general. It is totally backward and incompatable with a modern world, freedom and democracy."

When practiced correctly it does not. What religion on earth has not had some leader or leaders use it for their own advancements? It does not make the religion wrong but rather the people. I do not label protestants and catholics as violent just because a few of them decide to kill one another in Ireland. I do not think that all christians are anti-government and terrorists when Timothy McVeigh blew up the Murrel Federal building in Oklahoma City. I do not think that all christians are for genocide when the Serbs decided to erradicate the Muslim population in the area. I do not think all Germans want to take over the world because of Nazi Germany's actions.

There is a professor of religions who said that it is analitically incorrect to make a statement about a religion that its adhearants would not agree with. Obviously. If I are saying that a religion is one way and the believers are saying no it is not like that, who am I to say that I know better. Do I know what your house looks like on the inside by seeing it from the outside? I would need you to invite me in and show me around. I would also have to leave my preconcieved notions at the door. If I think that the house is going to be dirty, then I am going to be looking for dirt as soon as I step in the house. If I leave my expectations at the door, then I am more inclined to be appreciative of your house.

I keep getting the feeling that you come to our house looking for dirt instead of giving us a chance. But if you have made up your mind then I know that I am not going to convince you. I lack the educational knowledge about certain aspects that you have questions about. Once again, this website cannot be your only Islamic source. If you do not want to read books then maybe check out www.islam.com. It has short articles ( I know your repelence for reading) by scholars of Islam that may answer questions you have.

[Guest]

A good post Dan but I would like to pick up a couple of points in it and just prompt you some more on things you didn't address in my earlier post.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b>Bismillah</b>

Unfortunately, you hear about stonings and other aspcects of Shariah from nonmuslims or even muslims who do not know in what context these type of punishments should be meted out.

Well I am not sure what other context it could be put in but I see you have tried to put it into a context.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

First of all, there is no Islamic government on Earth.  None.  Not a single country with muslims in it has a leader or leaders who impliment the Islamic laws.  As is the case of most leaders, they are only staying in power by however they need to.

Well I tend to look at countries like Iran, Saudie and Afghanistan. As we know the Taleban were ousted. Never the less, there were some unsavourey aspects of that government/regime. It's implementation of Islamic law to women, to me, seemed in line with what I had read in hadith and qu'ran, except for the exclusion for education for women.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

In the example of stoning for adultery, this seemed extreme to me.  Yet once I learned in what context it is implimented, it did not seem as it did before.  First four witnesses must observe the act.  The observation of that act must be the equivelent of the bucket decending into the well.  We are talking about a type of observation that will not happen under any circumstances, unless there are some serious defects of character in all the parties involved and then they are not really that great of witnesses.

If I remember correctly Dan, you are a convert to Islam ?

Anyway, this rationalisation you have of the stoning is a worry to me. In 1930s Germany, Hitler over a period of time dehumanised the Jews, marginalised them, reared a generation of people who could identifiy that the Jews unhuman, unfit to live with the great Aryan race and before we knew what was happening, well, you probably know the rest. You have fallen into the same pattern, you somehow see reason in something there is no reason for. For hundreds of years illegitemit children were persecuted, demeaned and hidden away, why ? Well who knows but there was a rationale behind it at the time.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

If one person comes across people in this act then it is their job to cover up their shame.  As muslims were are supposed help hide the shame of one another from others.  It allows people to repent to Allah and not be labeled as a fornicator.  If you have ever been labeled by others with an unpleasant name, you know how hard it can be to shake that stigma.

Again you rationalise the barbaric punishment (primaraly against women) in dogma. How would you feel if your sister, mother, aunt or another relative known to you were to be treated in such a way ?

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

A scholar of Islam was talking about two incidents of stoning that occurred in the lifetime of the Prophet.

First: A man committed adultery and felt guilty so he went to talk to a companion of the Prophet, Abu Bakr, and told him what he did.  Abu Bakr asked if he had told anyone.  The man replied in the negative.  Abu Bakr said to not tell anyone else and make repentance to Allah.  The man was unsatisfied with this answer so he went to another close companion of the Prophet, Umar.

After hearing his story, Umar asked if he had told anyone.  The man said, \"Yes. Abu Bakr.\"  Umar asked the man what Abu Bakr said.  \"He said for me to make repentance and not tell anyone,\" the man replied.  \"Then why are you telling me?\" Umar asked. \"Do not tell anyone else and make repentance.\"

The man's heart was still uneasy so he went to the Prophet who according to the laws of Allah had the punishment carried out.

A woman had a child by adultery and raised the child for two years.  Finally guilt got to her and she went to the Prophet to have the sentence carried out.  After she was dead, a person made a comment about her lack of morals.  Muhammad replied, \"Don't do that.  If this woman's blood was spilt all over the city, everyone would be forgiven.\"  Meaning that if everyone made repentance like she did then all their sins would be forgiven.

In each case, the people who committed the sins sought out the punishment on their own accord.  Even those closest and dearest to the Prophet wanted to help these people make repentance.

I have read these stories and I am not impressed that this is a display of benevolence. All I see is a child orphaned. Those were barbaric times Dan, I'd like to think that humanity has moved on from that.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

When stoning is carried out, the person enters the circle of thier own accord and are not tied up.  If at any point, the person leaves the circle then the stoning stops.

Also, when a person is stoned here on earth, then the punishment in the Afterlife for that sin is not applied.  The person was already punished for that sin.  That was a reason why the people sought out that punishment.  They did not want to suffer in the Afterlife.

Again you rationalise it with dogma. I think we must be reading different law books because the stoning in Iran has the woman buried up to her neck and I recall the man is buried up to the waist.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

In Afganistan, which was allegedly an Islamic government, many problems and conflicts with Islamic laws arose in that situation as also.  Women were refused the right of education which has no place in Islam.  

AGREED ! Qu'ran is pro womens education.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

The Prophet made specific time, I guess what we would call class time or school, for women to get educated.

In Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive.  I do not know where this come from?  Women rode camels at the time of the Prophet.  I can continue but the ways in which Islamic law is not followed is quite extensive in every country.

By reading some Qur'an and some hadith, this makes no one a scholar of Islamic law.  Just as there are lawyers so does Islam need people educated in the Shariah in order to fully understand the particulars.

I am in no way qualified to give extensive answers on fihq or shariah.

But even reading the basics I still say with a bit of reform you have a pretty decent religion. I read enough to come to the conclusion that Islam is not the religion of peace it is proclaimed to be by some. My opinions on the Prophet I will keep to myself... for now.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

<i>\"I see it being used as an excuse to deny women their basic human rights specifically and human rights in general. It is totally backward and incompatable with a modern world, freedom and democracy.\"</i>

When practiced correctly it does not.  What religion on earth has not had some leader or leaders use it for their own advancements?  It does not make the religion wrong but rather the people.  I do not label protestants and catholics as violent just because a few of them decide to kill one another in Ireland.  I do not think that all christians are anti-government and terrorists when Timothy McVeigh  blew up the Murrel Federal building in Oklahoma City.  I do not think that all christians are for genocide when the Serbs decided to erradicate the Muslim population in the area.  I do not think all Germans want to take over the world because of Nazi Germany's actions.

Man's inhumanity to man knows' no bounds. I certainly don't lump all Muslims as terrorists, I never have. I don't lik ethe catholic church and protestants is just a made up religion so Henry VIII could bang more chicks. But anyway, that's neither here not there.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

There is a professor of religions who said that it is analitically incorrect to make a statement about a religion that its adhearants would not agree with.  Obviously.  If I are saying that a religion is one way and the believers are saying no it is not like that, who am I to say that I know better.  Do I know what your house looks like on the inside by seeing it from the outside?  I would need you to invite me in and show me around.  I would also have to leave my preconcieved notions at the door.  If I think that the house is going to be dirty, then I am going to be looking for dirt as soon as I step in the house.  If I leave my expectations at the door, then I am more inclined to be appreciative of your house.

I keep getting the feeling that you come to our house looking for dirt instead of giving us a chance.  But if you have made up your mind then I know that I am not going to convince you.  I lack the educational knowledge about certain aspects that you have questions about.  Once again, this website cannot be your only Islamic source.  If you do not want to read books then maybe check out www.islam.com.  It has short articles ( I know your repelence for reading) by scholars of Islam that may answer questions you have.

Can you honestly say, knowing what you do that Islam has no "dirt", that the Prophet Mohammad lead a perfect life ? I think that if you read up a bit more on the history of the times that the Prophet was capable of unsavourey stuff, slavery for example. Are we to recind the laws about slavery now ? I don't get it Dan, I really don't.

Now, would you care to rationalise Prophet Mohammads marriage to a 6 year old girl ? Now, to be fair, in the context of the times that this took place it was maybe not such an issue, however, "modern day" Iran still has laws in place that would allow this. Do you think that this is appropriate in today's modern world ? Whether it be an Islamic country or a democracy ?

Thanks for the dialogue Dan, I really appreciate it.

[SisterJennifer]

Hi HabibHibee,

Maybe I am mistaken, but it seems you regard 'converted Muslims' as having lessor knowledge. And yes, in some cases that may be so. However, don't you think that for many of us preparing to take such a major step in our lives, we will at least look at this from all possible angles?

Islam is peace. No question about it. As Dan tried to explain to you, and I have as well, the sentance for stoning can ONLY be carried out if four witnesses have seen the actual act take place. Think about this: Islam is peace, and you are using the rational that stoning is barbaric and unpeaceful. And while I am sure it may seem this way to you, consider this:

Will you have a peaceful society in which fornication, unwed teenage mothers leavinf babies in trash cans are not uncommon, and divorced parents are also the norm. Do you realize that in my son's class of 28 students, there are only 2 students with married parent's. Depression among the youth is on the rise. And the #1 reason for divorce is a cheating spouse. Are these values that promote peace? Can you say with all honesty that America is a peaceful place when many 1000's are killed in voilent crime by the year, and rape is so common that 1 of every 8 girls by the time they reach puberty is molested? This is peace?

You look very close at how Muslim majority countries run the place, but what about these so called 'democracies?' Really have you considered how the effects of how these acts effect the society?

Is there any place on Earth that you consider to have high morals and justice? Be honest. I don't think any of us can say that there is.

really look at it from all sides if you really want to look at governments for your example

I posted a very good biography about the Prophet in the general section if you are interested in looking at another angle.

That's all I have to offer

Peace be with you,

~Jennifer

PS excuse anytypos, I'm in a rush. All the best to you.

[Dan]

Bismillah

I stated in that lengthy post that no country is implementing the laws of Islam. On that note, you MUST disregard the actions of those who say they are doing such when they are not. Any scholar of Islam will say this, unless they are currently employed by said regimes.

Also Iran is not a good example to use. Shi'ite and Sunni are not the same. There are major differences to the point they they have split into different sects. If I know anything about Shi'ite law, then I would be shocked. Seriously though, I have no background in that sect. If they think they are implementing shariah, then may Allah Guide them.

The Messenger of Allah was engaged to a six year old but did not marry her that young. In fact a previous engagement had to be disolved first. This practice is not unheard of. Islam was also the one that allowed the women for the first time in that society to decline marriage to someone they did not want to marry.

Slaves were owned by Rasul-Ullah. In fact he also freed them. One slave boy he took as a son or ward. Islam does not condone slavery. In fact it is a process of eliminating it. The rewards for freeing slaves are innumerable. It is highly encouraged. Now there is no slavery in Arabia whereas it is still practiced in many Asian countries. On the other hand, in the United States, people were forced to give up their slaves and the bloodiest war the US has ever seen erupted. Just as when drug offenders are sent to rehab instead of jail, the success rate is much greater for rehabilitation. People give up vices under encouragement and reward mosre easitly than under force.

To answer "Well I am not sure what other context it could be put in but I see you have tried to put it into a context.": If I was told that people in America go to jail for life for drugs, that is a misrepresentation of that law. Depending on the amount the person had, what kind is was, and how many previous offences the person has will dictate the extent of time spent in jail. If I get caught with a small amount of marijuana (first offence), I will get a "slap on the wrist." On the other hand if I am caught with a pound of heroin, I am going to spend some good time in prison.

"You have fallen into the same pattern, you somehow see reason in something there is no reason for." As being on the other side of the fence, I could say the same about you. This is a judgement call and I would prefer them to be kept out of the dialogue. I am attempting to refrain from finger pointing and classifying you in order to allow for a more open discussion. It will benefit us both Insha'Allah.

You state, "Again you rationalise the barbaric punishment (primaraly against women) in dogma. How would you feel if your sister, mother, aunt or another relative known to you were to be treated in such a way ?" Where did I state that this punishment is primarily for women? It is not. Do not state this country or that does it either. I have already addressed that. Do you think that I truly feel that the sexist morons who delusionally use Islam to justify their masagonist passions are correct? Please give me some intellectual credit as I do for you. You passed over the part of the law that stipulates four people must witness full penetration in order for anyone to be convicted. Personally, if I was walked in on by four people, the last thing I would encourage would be a closer look. This stipulation is pretty much leaving it up to the two individuals to make repentance to God. If they are not personally satisfied with that then God has allowed a way for them to pay now and not later in the punishment of Afterlife.

"I think that if you read up a bit more on the history of the times that the Prophet was capable of unsavourey stuff, slavery for example." I still think that you believe that I jumped into Islam with little regard as to what my American education had tried to intill in me.

I have done much reseach into the life of the Prophet, even including books. If your info is coming from a fierce opponent of Islam then of course they will paint the worst possible picture. Would you ask a jew about Jesus? Would you ask a muslim about Hinduism? I wonder where you are getting your information about Islam?

According to our previous discourses, you are not one to put forth too much energy into this matter otherwise I would ask of a bibliography. It is also because of this lack of work to inform yourself in the ways in which people request on this board that stonewalls me in our discourse. If you asked me to play soccer and I agreed but only if I did not have to run around or kick anything, would that be a game? Would I even be considered a player?

I want to step back from this discussion and point out that we are discussing the details of Islam. Say you wanted to travel across the ocean and I told you I had a vehicle. It has good mirrors. Very comfortable. The seats are made of leather. There is a radio. Someone will get you food or beverages if you need them. There is even a place for you to sleep if you need to nap. Next I tell you that the vehicle is a van. You see? I started at the wrong end. If I would have told you it was a van, you could have decided quicker.

Do you believe in God? Then we can go from there. That's how to discuss Islam.

[Guest]

Hello SisJen A good post SisJen.

I would like to nit pick a couple of wee thing though.

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b>Hi HabibHibee,</b>

Maybe I am mistaken, but it seems you regard 'converted Muslims' as having lessor knowledge.  And yes, in some cases that may be so.  However, don't you think that for many of us preparing to take such a major step in our lives, we will at least look at this from all possible angles?

I actually didn't mean anything by the convert remark other than I regarded Dan as a Tesco religious shopper, i.e. he looked around tried a few religions and found Islam. He had made a choice to be a Muslim other than born into it.

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b>Hi HabibHibee,</b>

Islam is peace.  No question about it.

Hmm, only if you are a Muslim that is.

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

 As Dan tried to explain to you, and I have as well, the sentance for stoning can ONLY be carried out if four witnesses have seen the actual act take place.  

I don't care if there were a hundred witnesses, it makes it no less barbaric SisJen. Even if the accused had been a murderer, child rapist or whatever, it is still barbaric. I think secretly you are a bit squeemish on the subject and in most cases hope women get away with it due to a lack of evidence. How would you feel about one of your kids being stoned to death because 4 people accused them of fornication ?

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

Think about this:  Islam is peace, and you are using the rational that stoning is barbaric and unpeaceful.  And while I am sure it may seem this way to you, consider this:

Will you have a peaceful society in which fornication, unwed teenage mothers leavinf babies in trash cans are not uncommon, and divorced parents are also the norm.  

Religions are always obsessed with sex, all of them. What is that they have against sex ? So a woman makes the mistake of marrying an ahole and she is to stick with him ? Remember, we are not all what we appear to a prospective spouse. What about an arranged marriage, poor couple gets saddled with no way out.

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

Do you realize that in my son's class of 28 students, there are only 2  

students with married parent's.  

I don't see that as being an issue, they are all gods children, right ? But you are right, too many kids are born without loving parents. Contraception is the answer, not stoning the "fornicators" (primarily women) to death.

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

Depression among the youth is on the rise.  And the #1 reason for divorce is a cheating spouse.  Are these values that promote peace?  

So Islams answer to that little predicament is to allow a man to have more than one wife

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b>  </b>

Can you say with all honesty that America is a peaceful place when many 1000's are killed in voilent crime by the year, and rape is so common that 1 of every 8 girls by the time they reach puberty is molested?  This is peace?

America has violent crime, of course it does but why are you picking up only on America ? Take at look at what happens in Pakistan for example.

Now, since you bring up the subject of rape, did you know that a senior minister of Turkey recently said that if his daughter was raped she would make sure that the rapist would marry her ? Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't sharia law allow a man off the hook for rape if he agrees to marry his victim ?

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b>  </b>

You look very close at how Muslim  majority countries run the place, but what about these so called 'democracies?'  Really have you considered how the effects of how these acts effect the society?

Is there any place on Earth that you consider to have high morals and justice?  Be honest.  I don't think any of us can say that there is.

really look at it from all sides if you really want to look at governments for your example

I would say any country in the European union such as Belgium, Holland, Switzerland, Sweden, Austria are good democratic countries with high moral values. No government is perfect but I would have to say that some are better than others.

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b>  </b>

I posted a very good biography about the Prophet in the general section if you are interested in looking at another angle.

That's all I have to offer

Peace be with you,

~Jennifer

PS excuse anytypos, I'm in a rush.  All the best to you.

I have read about Mohammad and the history of the times and it was a violent period. All the same, you put Mohammad up on a pedestal based on his good points out weighing the bad. A bit like saying Hitler was not all bad, he was kind to animals. It just doesn't add up for me. Oh, and here is another thing, blasphemy laws in Islam, one word against Mohammad and it's death right ?

Anyway, typos aside, I enjoyed your response. I'm sure my typos are there too !

Islam just needs a wee tweak here and there and its a world beater of a religion.

Right Dan, you are next !

[Guest]

Once again Dan, top post, thanks.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b>Bismillah</b>

I stated in that lengthy post that no country is implementing the laws of Islam.  On that note, you MUST disregard the actions of those who say they are doing such when they are not.  Any scholar of Islam will say this, unless they are currently employed by said regimes.

Also Iran is not a good example to use.  Shi'ite and Sunni are not the same.  There are major differences to the point they they have split into different sects.  If I know anything about Shi'ite law, then I would be shocked.  Seriously though, I have no background in that sect.  If they think they are implementing shariah, then may Allah Guide them.

I would have thought Iran was a perfect example, Iran is an Islamic republic no ? So how do you feel about the stoning to death of women in Iran then ?

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

The Messenger of Allah was engaged to a six year old but did not marry her that young.  In fact a previous engagement had to be disolved first.  This practice is not unheard of.  Islam was also the one that allowed the women for the first time in that society to decline marriage to someone they did not want to marry.

You declined to respond to whether this behaviour is appropriate now though ? Islam also dictates that women are not as valued as much as men in other areas regarding inheritence, bearing witness, leaving the house without a male relative etc.

Hey, progress was made, but it I feel it fell just a wee bit short. In my opinion, women are equal to men.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

Slaves were owned by Rasul-Ullah.  In fact he also freed them.  One slave boy he took as a son or ward.  Islam does not condone slavery.  In fact it is a process of eliminating it.  The rewards for freeing slaves are innumerable.  It is highly encouraged.  Now there is no slavery in Arabia whereas it is still practiced in many Asian countries.  On the other hand, in the United States, people were forced to give up their slaves and the bloodiest war the US has ever seen erupted.

The American Civil war was about more than slavery. Slavery still exists in some Northern African countries also and that should be stopped. I think there is a thriving "sex trade" in some of the balkan countries too, something that I find vile.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

To answer \"Well I am not sure what other context it could be put in but I see you have tried to put it into a context.\":  If I was told that people in America go to jail for life for drugs, that is a misrepresentation of that law. .....

I shortened that last part in case I get into trouble with the "quote police" again.

1. It was me who said it was women who suffer the most under sharia law, not you. I still think that is the case. The number of witnesses is of no concern to me, stoning a person to death for having sex is not cool.

2. I am talking about Islam specifically because I think people here would be able to respond better to my questions about Islam. Just so you know, I don't particularly like religion whether it be Islam, catholic church, protestant, jehova, jewish or even Indias ridiculous caste system, they all have something wacky about them. I wonder what buddism is like ? I've never looked into that one.

3. I don't have a response regarding the soccer team, minivan versus boat etc. You lost me there.

4. Yes, I did have preconceived notions about Islam. Some of them have been debunked and others are to my horrer are true. It's just a good job most muslims don't actually live by the qu'ran or we would be in a right mess.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>Do you believe in God?  Then we can go from there.  That's how to discuss Islam.

Now that is an interesting question and to be honest, I am agnostic about it. I would like to believe in god but religion tells me otherwise.

Religion just seems to be a human made up thing. If god does exist he needs to be showing a bit more interest in what's going on. We are all confused about what book we should be following, people are arguing about and so on. No the Muslims are going to say Mohammad was the lat prophet and the christians are saying different. Who do I believe, I'm stuck in the middle and frankly, neither proposition looks appealing !

Anyway, great response Dan, thanks again.

[Dan]

Bismillah

Well, let's go from the beginning then because whether you do or do not believe in some sort of god or gods will determine what religion interests you.

Before I even started to look for a religion, I blocked out all of people's religious influences and looked for God in my life. I started with how did we get here? Humanity I mean.

I looked at the theory of creation that was most scietifically sound, the Big Bang theory. What caused the Bang? What ignited it? So for a while, I refered to God as the Great Causer in my mind. The mathematical probabilities to get where we are in evolution show it is impossible. If they were the odds to me winning a contest, I would definately pass. I equate it to a tornado hitting a Home Depot and expecting a house to be built. All the materials are there for it yet it has never happened. I saw evolution as being guided by God.

My thinking moved from there.

What do you think? If you are agnostic, what is keeping you from being 100% sure that God does not exist? If there is any doubt in your mind about God's existence or lack of? What issues are you wavering on? (Most of the questions are the same one only reworded but I am using the shotgun approach in order to get some input.)