Mohammad, prophet or cult leader ?

[Guest]

Really, how do you know that anything Mohammad said was in fact divine ?

[Dan]

Bismillah

How does the title of your thread reflect upon your question?

You ask how we know what Muhammad said was divinely revealed but your title eludes to whether or not Muhammad is a cult leader. Why just not have the title be "how do you know that anything Mohammad said was in fact divine?"

You claim to be here to learn about Islam yet I constantly see you phrase questions and answers in atagonistic ways. Is that just part of your personality? From what I have read it should not be because you have talked about how you just like to relax and go with the flow. "Chill out with a beer" is what I remember you saying. I could be wrong.

Have you noticed the number of people who have viewed your post but do not answer?

If I came to you and wanted to know about Scotland, how do you think my best approach would be?

1. What are the major political concerns of the average Scot?

or

2. Are all Scottish people just wanting to get drunk and laid all the time?

Each question is asking about the lives of Scottish people but one is said with tact and the other is just being an atagonistic jerk. You would wonder if I am really curious about Scottish life or just trying to push your buttons. I am all for trying to help you along on any intellectual path you are trying to take but I am requiring that you and I discuss matters in a civil manner. Basically, I want to hear the things you allude to about Islam as you would want to hear me say about Scotland or soccer (my American is showing), or anything else that you hold dear or respect.

The Arabs at the time that the Qur'an was revealed treasured language above all things. Poets would safeguard the honor of a tribe just as much as the warriors. The more I learn about the Arabic language the more I find this to be true. There are many, many words in the Arabic language that are impossible to translate to any other language. When the Qur'an was revealed, it was like nothing ever written or said before. In the Qur'an it challeges people to come up with just three verses that resemble it. That has never ever been done. It has been tried. Some people claim to have lost verses of the Book but due to the language of the Qur'an, they are seen clearly as false. I know you are not going to go learn classical Arabic to see if I am correct. I do not expect you to do that. That is how the Arabs at the time though respected the message of the prophet.

Now, how did I come to beleive that the Qur'an was divinely revealed? It was not from the poetry of the english translation that I read. There was none in the way that I see it. It was more prose in fashion. What was said was more important to me than how it was said.

I studied many religions before becoming a muslim. I actually saw myself more as a Bhuddist. I get to pursue nirvana by however I see fit, following lose guidelines. Sounded good to me. After the rigidity of catholicism, that seemed right up my alley. I looked into it and other religions as well in my pursuit for spiritual fulfillment. Each religion I put myself into the practices that they observed. None really fit. I was curious about Islam but five prayers a day was hard to swallow let alone fasting. I had come to the understanding that I believed in God. I just did not know what next. I mean in my mind saying that the order of creation is an accident is like saying that when a tornado hits a Home Depot a house will be built. All the materials are there. I digress though. That's another topic. Focus

I prayed to God in the way that I knew how. "God let me come to a religion that will please You. Every time that I have tried it my way, I have only ended up unhappy or unfulfilled." Days after that a muslim couple came to my religions class in college. People from other faiths came as well so it was not surprising. I had never read the Qur'an and had an itching to do so. I had already read (excuse the spelling) the Dhamapada, the Bhagaga Vita, the Pol Puh Vuh, and of course the Bible along with oral tradtions from other religions that were put in print but did not have a title, like Native American lore.

I asked the couple where I could get a Qur'an and they said they would send me one. About a week later, I got it and started reading.

There were many things in the book that amazed me. One, I felt like it was addressing me personally. Another is that it had things in it that Muhammad could not have known during his time, like the stages of birth ("discovered" in the 1940s), that all life originated from water (evolution), and other stuff. The biggest thing that struck me was that it actually challenged me to find fault with it.

To me that is shocking. No matter how good of a paper I thought I wrote in college, I would not turn it in to my professor saying, "I dare you to find any faults with this!"

Bring it on! You want to challenge me then great. We will see. I did see, alhamdulillah. I am now a muslim.

If you want to find out if the Qur'an is divinely inspired then go read one, front to back. If you find any faults then we can discuss them once you have finished. No one wants a book review about half a book.

I am not trying to convert you though you might feel as such. It does not make any difference to me whether or not you read it. I mean, what's there to be scared of? It's just a book. I say this because many friends and family have not read it just because they saw the profound change in my life and are not ready for it. I asked one friend why didn't they read it and their answer was they are afraid that I am right. (I am not right. It is not a matter of whose right or wrong. Those were just their words.) If it comes down to laziness, then you really are not in search of any answers. For knowledge, you must strive in life for it. You did not graduate school by sleeping and eating. You had to try.

I could go into more details but I have already started a book so I will stop for now. I sincerely hope you find the answers you are looking for, as long as you are asking the right questions.

Alhamdulillah. Astaghfirullah. All errors are due to myself and all truth if from Allah. Astaghfirullah.

[Guest]

Phew, that was some response !!

<i>Dan wrote</i>

<b></b>

1. What are the major political concerns of the average Scot?

or

2. Are all Scottish people just wanting to get drunk and laid all the time?

I can certainly answer the 2nd questions as a yes and I do not find the question antagonistic.

I suppose my question could be construed as antonistic but if it weren't, who would respond. Maybe if I give you some insight as to how I look at Mohammad it would help.

I don't really see him as being a divine spiritual leader. Reading his history and various anlaysis of the times it would appear to me that he falls into the role of a cult leader. I just haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise. I don't think there ever will be either. I lot of what went on back then was symbolic and trickery of the various religious leaders just maintain their status. No doubt about it, Mohammad railed against that but to me he did so for his own needs, not because he was a benevolant prophet. Just my opinion, can't be proved either way, same way it cannot be proved that God spoke to Mohammad (or Jesus), you just have to take Mohammads word on that

So I see you are a convert for catholicism. Now, I don't want to sound offensive here so stick with me. You sort of fall into the category of a "Tesco" religious person. By that I mean, in Islam you have found a religion that suits YOUR needs which you picked up from the local supermarket. You pick and choose your religion based on what suits your mind set and Islam fits that, for the moment. So you could say you have found a "cult" that suits you, could have been the moonies, could have been the church of scientology.

This is why I say "Mohammad Divine prophet or cult leader ?". Just the same as if you had converted to the Moonies (people did you know!) would Moon be a divine leader or a cult figure ?

Again, I am not trying to be offensive but just expressing my views as tactfully as I can :cool:

I am obviously not going to read the entire QU'ran (who has time for that ? ) but I read bits and pieces and it just get me wondering. I gave up on the bible a long, long time ago.

Just as a side note, I watched a biography on T.E. Lawrence last night which was interesting. The Arab nations got screwed again. One commentator said that "Oil was a curse on the Arab people".

[radiyah]

Alsalam 3ala man itaba3 Alhuda

Habibhiby, excuse me y do all of you think that Jesus is devine or Moses or Abraham or Joseph or any other prophet, because they are prophets and messengers of God.

And prophet Mohammad(PBUH) a

messenger from God

in the holy Quran his name was

mentioned, and Allah Allmighty asked

us to follow him.

This is 1 verse there are others, but this will suffice.( I know you don't beleive in Quran, but we do)

(Those who disbelieve and hinder from the path of Allah, He will render their deeds vain*But those who beleive and do rightous good deeds, and beleive in that which is sent to Muhammad,He will expiate from their sins and will make good their state*because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who beleive follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allah set forth for mankind their parables)

Holy Quran 47-1,2,3

So you see that is why everything Mohammad(PBUH) says is devine, because God Allmighty ordered us to follow him. I wish to ask you one question, did you read everything about

Islam its history, or can I ask another Question did you read about other prophets, you say our prophet had 9 wives, what about prophet Solomon(PBUH) how many wives did he have ??? can you answer that , and prophet David(PBUH) how many wives did he have????

these are sights I found about king Solomon(PBUH), and another about polygamy.

http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/exegesis/g...-he-gave-wives/

http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/575...58/shoftim.html

http://injil.org/TWOR/53.html

http://www.biblegateway.org/cgi-bin/bible?...ish&version=NIV

well then not only prophet Mohammad(PBUH) had more than 1 wife, and there is bibilcalpolygamy, what hurts me that in the bible and torah it is mentioned that prophet Solomon and David are sinners :confused: how can that be , prophets from God should be respected and never accused of adultery. Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) asked us to respect all prophets and that all are 1 messengers from God and they all called for the oneness of Allah, he orders us to do good deeds and high Morals, he asks us women to cover ourselves so we can be Jewels covered in velvet, precious no one can ever touch us or look at us,if you have an expensive diamond wont you hide it and and cover it with heavy expensive velvet you and you are afraid that someone will steal it from you, (so is a jewel more important to you than your own wife?), so you see that is why true beleivers should follow Mohammad(PBUH) not because we worship him, because he is truly a messenger of God, he never lied, he never sinned(neither did other prophets)(PBUT) all, he helped the poor

the orphans and helpless women, when he went to war, he never killed a child a woman or old men, he even asked us to be kind to animals and trees, he asked us when we are in war never destroy a

church or temple for jews, leave them dont force any1 in islam. He never asked for wealth or money, he would stay without food to give the poor, he was a great man, followed by beleivers who listened to every word God ordered, they gave their lives defending him, y? because they know and truly beleive he is a messenger of God, and they know that the biggest bounty for them is Jannah.

Now on the contrary see what are the jews doing, they are killing children, old men and women, destroying houses, they want to rule the world by force, but

prophet Mohammad ruled the world by peace, yes he was ordered to fight and go on Jihad to spread Islam, but it was army facing army, men facing men( the other army was treble the size of his army and still he won Y? By the aid of God the Allmighty) and not heavy artillery facing armless men women and children, they even killed christians defending palestenians(did you know that). I think this will be enough, I am stating all this to defend prophet Mohammad because it is my duty as a muslim to do so, weather you are convinced or not it is up to you, we do not force anything on anyone. But I truly pray for all of you to see the true light sent by Allah. And lastly I wish to say that I was not trying to offend anyone here, I am trying to do my duty as a muslim and may Allah accept from me.

[radiyah]

Habibhibee wrote :

I am obviously not going to read the entire QU'ran (who has time for that ? ) but I read bits and pieces and it just get me wondering. I gave up on the bible a long, long time ago.

Well if you will not read the entire Quran, and you choose the bits and pieces that suit your mind and needs, and you gave up on the bible as well, why waste your time arguing to condemn prophet Mohammad(PBUH), forget all about it and rest and let beleivers in the bible argue with us, (no offence ), those who seek the truth will run after it and not just sit resting waiting for it to come.

May God accept our deeds

[Guest]

Wise words indeed radiya. Thanks for your response. I'm not even here to argue. Just get some input.

But you did bring up some interesting points although the relevancy of some of them were a bit "iffy", particularly about the number of wives for various prophets. :confused: and the jews :confused:

Anyway, no matter.

A lot of what Mohaddam says just appears to be, well, common sense rather than divine. I remember reading somewhere Mohammad saying that god had told him that the Muslim armies were to cover up their "toilet stuff" and not leave it lying around the camp. See, I don't think that is divine and in the grand scheme of things it just kind of makes sense. Then if you dig a bit deeper than some of the innocuous stuff and get into things like the imbalance of power between men and women I just wonder about just how benevolant he was. This is where I interpret things differently. You being a religious person probably don't interpret it at all, you probably take it at face value and I just wonder why that is.

On the subject of moses and jesus being divine, no, I don't think they were particularly divine either, no. In fact, I think jesus lived his life according to the prophesies that were known at that time.

I think most religious thought is based on simple superstition played upon by the people of that time, "Don't do that or it's fire and brimstone" etc etc. I just can't see any of it being "divine".

[Dan]

Bismillah

You have got to be kidding me if you think that I chose Islam because it fits my needs. You did not really read what I wrote? Islam in the United States is just about the most difficult religion to practice. It also requires more of my time and effort than any other religion that I have studied. How is this fitting MY needs? Could you also define cult leader for me?

Also list how Muhammad benifitted by being a prophet.

He was a well off man with a wife that allowed him to follow the spiritual pursuits he wanted. He had enough leisure time to meditate and reflect for weeks at a time. He was respected by all of the people of Mecca to the point where he was called upon to settle intertribal disputes. After prophethood, he had no free time, his fellow people initially hated him for his calling and abused him. When he died as the most powerful man that Arabia had ever seen, he died without any material possessions. Everything that was given to him, he gave away to those he saw in more dire need.

I am going to stop here because I feel that I am wasting my time with your questions. If you really wanted to know things, you would not just take the bits and pieces that feed your opinion and actually find out the full truth of things.

Initially I pegged you as some wannabe pompous intelectual who surfs the net starting debates just to get off some how. I now feel differently. I do not feel you are intellectual at all.

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>I studied many religions before becoming a muslim. I actually saw myself more as a Bhuddist. I get to pursue nirvana by however I see fit, following lose guidelines. Sounded good to me. After the rigidity of catholicism, that seemed right up my alley. I looked into it and other religions as well in my pursuit for spiritual fulfillment. Each religion I put myself into the practices that they observed. None really fit. I was curious about Islam but five prayers a day was hard to swallow let alone fasting. I had come to the understanding that I believed in God. I just did not know what next.

This is what I meant by a "Tesco" selection of religion. You shopped around for a religion that suited your needs. Not so much a criticism Dan, just an observation.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b>Bismillah</b>

You have got to be kidding me if you think that I chose Islam because it fits my needs.  You did not really read what I wrote?  Islam in the United States is just about the most difficult religion to practice.  It also requires more of my time and effort than any other religion that I have studied.  How is this fitting MY needs?  

Why is it so difficult to practice your religion in the United States ? What has your location got to do with ?

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

Could you also define cult leader for me?

Also list how Muhammad benifitted by being a prophet.

He was a well off man with a wife that allowed him to follow the spiritual pursuits he wanted.  He had enough leisure time to meditate and reflect for weeks at a time.  He was respected by all of the people of Mecca to the point where he was called upon to settle intertribal disputes.  After prophethood, he had no free time, his fellow people initially hated him for his calling and abused him.  When he died as the most powerful man that Arabia had ever seen, he died without any material possessions.  Everything that was given to him, he gave away to those he saw in more dire need.

I am going to stop here because I feel that I am wasting my time with your questions.  If you really wanted to know things, you would not just take the bits and pieces that feed your opinion and actually find out the full truth of things.

I don't know if we are talking about the same Mohammad then. Sure I see a guy that was capable some truely benevolent acts and at other times, no so much. Hitler was very kind to animals but he didn't seem to care so much for mankind, Jews in particular. So everyone is capable of benevolent acts. Details details, hey ?!

As far a cult leader goes, where is the difference between Mohammad and Marshall Applewhite, leader of the Heavens Gate cult ? He managed to convince about <b>39 people to kill themselves</b> on the back of a story he had concocted about a spaceship.

<i>Originally posted by Dan </i><b></b>

Initially I pegged you as some wannabe pompous  intelectual who surfs the net starting debates just to get off some how.  I now feel differently.  I do not feel you are intellectual at all.

Ah well, I will just have to learn to live with that Dan

[SisterJennifer]

Hi HabibHibee,

I really cannot understand what your reason is for being at this forum. You say you don't intend to read the Quran, you are not a religious person, so you are here for what reason? Before we go on with this maybe you could explain what it is you are looking for.

Thanks,

Jennifer

[radiyah]

Al salam 3ala man itaba3 alhoda.

Well HabibHibee, what kind of input are you searching for particularily, are you seeking for the truth, or you just want to show in any way or another that prophet Mohammad is not a prophet and he is not devine, and also you are saying that other prophets are not devine (then you are not a beleiver of anything:confused: ). (I think I must also defend other prophets from misinterpretating their history )

And about me being relegious, yes I am, and yes I do interpret it, I have a mind Alhamdulillah that God Allmighty gave me so that I can see the truth and beleive in it, yes I was born a muslim and I thank God I was born that way, But still I have a mind that makes me think that how can buddist and hindus worship Idols that men sculptured and animals :confused: that are created b by God, or how can there be 2 Gods. so tell me what kind of input you want and I will gladly answer, If I got lost somewhere and couldn't find the answer for you I will gladly ask the scholar who is teaching us. Really it hearts me when I c you like this not knowing the truth, I wish to help you if you are willing, so I am waiting for your answer:rolleyes:

As I told you before we dont force any1 here we try to convince you, if we succeeded it is by aid of Allah Allmighty,

if not then it is our fault and mistake.

Sub7an Allah wa Allhamdullilah Wala7awla wala Gowata illa Billah