What is Islam??????????????

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b>You can conclude that I disagee with the ruling.  They do not have the proper evidence against this women to carry out this sentance.  Yes, I very strongly disagee.  The problem is not with Islamic fundamentals.  If they were using them, this would not be happening.</b>

You are not exactly condeming the punishment though, are you ? You have not said that you disagree with stoning someone to death for a sin. And that Jennifer, is scary.

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

If someone wants to be gay, that's their choice, and I really don't care.  However, they do not belong in the position of Bishop.  Or are they just following the 'Do as I say, not as I do' approach?  How can he preach that being gay is forbidden in the Bible and be openly gay.  That is hypocrisy no matter how you look at it.  Jesus warns in the Bible about these people, especially those in position of authority, such as a Bishop.  

Is there a theme beginning to emerge regarding religious leaders then ?

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

Yes, and the marrige was not consumated until she reached puberty.  Something that was also commonly practiced by people of the Christian and Jewish faiths of that time.

That's a bit vague and ambiguous is it not ? My understanding was that he married her at 6 and the marriage was consumated when she was 9. Is that not what is recorded in the Qu'ran ?

Not that this adds anything to what I am talking about which is punishments in Islam.

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

Islam teaches that you are judged according to your knowledge.  If you obtain knowledge, and reject it that is one thing.  If you have never recieved any knowledge, how can you be judged according to something you do not know?  

Who is doing the judging though ?

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

No, that is not my intention- you mistook me.  I was merely saying that something like this may be interesting or beneficial for you.  One on one dialoge, in my opinion, can be a very useful thing for all parties.  We do this often, and I always enjoy it.  I thought you might too.

Well, take care.  

Jennifer

I've often thought about it but I just don't want to pitch up at a mosque. I have actually stopped attending religous ceremonies. Weddings, christenings etc at places of worship. At least for now. I have never attended a Muslim ceremony, the only Muslims I knew (one of them died) never really attended mosques for prayer other than special occasions. One guy had me fasting at ramadan just to keep up. I lasted a day ! He lasted about a week !

[Muslimah]

as salam a`alaman ibata`alhoda

HabibHibee, I made one contrinution into this thread and here I am trying to settle one point for u. When sisterjennifer say she disagrees with the punishment, truly I can not talk on her behalf, however, I don't think she is referring to the punishment per se as part of Sharia.

For this punishment to take effect, as she said, 4 witnesses must confirm seeing the full act. Failure to do so, I mean if just three people came saying we say x and z having an intercourse will put them in trouble of being lashed. The other alternative is for the doer to come and confess for him/herself accepting the punishment.

Now I don't think that in any way you are allowed to discuss penalties, or suggest that Islam be reformed. One more point, I am sure you would not like it but I have to say it, Islam is the only religion that Allah sent His Messengers and Prophets to call for. Starting from Adam till Mohamed peace and prayer be upon all of them

Again I am renewing my offer, try to develop objective inquiries Insha Allah will be more than happy to answer.

No one is running away. We are here to do this HabibHibee, it is out duty

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by Muslimah </i><b>as salam a`alaman ibata`alhoda  </b>

HabibHibee, I made one contrinution into this thread and here I am trying to settle one point for u. When sisterjennifer say she disagrees with the punishment, truly I can not talk on her behalf, however, I don't think she is referring to the punishment per se as part of Sharia.

For this punishment to take effect, as she said, 4 witnesses must confirm seeing the full act. Failure to do so, I mean if just three people came saying we say x and z having an intercourse will put them in trouble of being lashed. The other alternative is for the doer to come and confess for him/herself accepting the punishment.

Now I don't think that in any way you are allowed to discuss penalties, or suggest that Islam be reformed. One more point, I am sure you would not like it but I have to say it, Islam is the only religion that Allah sent His Messengers and Prophets to call for.  Starting from Adam till Mohamed peace and prayer be upon all of them

Again I am renewing my offer, try to develop objective inquiries Insha Allah will be more than happy to answer.

No one is running away. We are here to do this HabibHibee, it is out duty

Thank you for indulging me this long. I was beginning to think that all relgious people were fanatics and could not discuss their religion.

So where do you stand on this issue ? Specifically, the Nigerian woman Amina Lawal, uneducated and illiterate, will know her fate on the 25th. If her sentence is upheld, under Sharia law, (Islamic law?) the courts are going to arrange to have this woman buried up to her neck and then the sentence will be carried out by people throwing rocks at her head until she dies.

This is a ver, very high profile case. Is this the face of Islam that Muslims want to be seen ?

[Muslimah]

as salam a`alaman itaba`alhoda

again HabibHibee still lacking objectivity, you r discussing a single case. You know what, I will tell u a case at the time of the Prophet peace and prayer be upon him. A woman went and confessed she committed zina (intercourse outside of marriage), and she is pregnant. He told her to go until she delivers then come back. She came back after delivery. He told her to go until she ends breast feeding time. She did and came back, it indicated her insistence to take the punishment for she feels how grave her sin was. The Messenger of Allah peace and prayer be upon him, gave the child to one of the compnions to take care of and applied the punishment. when he at each time sent her back, her was giving her a chance to not to come back. He felt how guilty she realizes herself. And to him, he thought that due to this Allah shall forgive her. See HabibHibee, punishments must be enforced, but we are not allowed to judge about Allah's mercy as well. So this is exactly how it must be done. And I very sorry to tell u that not one single Muslim country is actually applying sharia except for Saudi Arabia, u know what if they did, we would have been in a much better situation.

[Muslimah]

In brief Muslims look the way you say they do because Islam is not properly applied

[Guest]

If you look into the specifics of the case, Sharia law was introduced after her "crime". I don't believe she commited any crime but I suppose that's neither here nor there to you. In any case, Amina has no place to go. She does not want this punishment, she has appealed it and with help from various worldwide organisations her lawyers are putting together a defense. So it is clear that in this instance that she does not want to die.

Also, it is interesting to note that the father received no punishment due to a lack of evidence. I would have thought that the existence of a child would be evidence enough.

So I know where you stand on this, you are in agreement with the sentence and this is very troubling.

Would you say that the Taleban had it right as to how Muslims should live then ? In other words, Saudie do not go far enough in the applications of sharia law or the Taliban (I don't know the correct spelling) were a tad over zealous ?

[SisterJennifer]

<i>Originally posted by Muslimah </i><b>In brief Muslims look the way you say they do because Islam is not properly applied </b>

<i> Originally posted by HabibHibee</i><b>So I know where you stand on this, you are in agreement with the sentence and this is very troubling. </b>

I think you may be reading into things a bit too much. Don't put words into peoples mouths, OK. Maybe try to put a little more thought into what you are reading. Just a friendly suggestion.

Thanks,

Jennifer

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b>I think you may be reading into things a bit too much.  </b>

How so ? What I am seeing, in the case of Amina, is a dirt poor, ignorant, illiterate mother about be "legally" buried up to her neck and then stoned to death by a mob of people hurling rocks at her exposed head for the "crime" of having sex outside of marriage. The result being that her children will be left without a mother. I would say that the opposite is true, I am missing something, I am not reading <b>enough</b> into it ! Is this the best that Islam has to offer mankind or is it the worst ?

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

Don't put words into peoples mouths, OK.  Maybe try to put a little more thought into what you are reading.  Just a friendly suggestion.

Thanks,

Jennifer

Friendly suggestions are always welcome but what words did I put in anybodies mouth ?

[Muslimah]

HabibHibee, Alhamdulelah I am not a teacher but Allah sobhanhu wa Ta`ala granted me the ability to just try and explain more, specially when it comes to religion, I just use my refrigrator nature:D and really try to reach out to people as much as possible as long as they didn't cross divine boundaries, which u didn't Alhamdulelah. To me u r someone, who is trying to defend his own religion, trying to prove to himself in evey possible way that what those people claim to be the truth and not where I stand is nothing but a collection of nothing. I know this feeling, usually people tend to defend their situation not to discover they may be wrong.

So let us start from fresh, first off honestly speaking, I don't have detailed info on Amina's case. That is why if u noticed I just presented the issue from an Islamic prespective and gave u an example from Sunnah (Prophet's deeds).

I would like to shed more light, the stoning punishment is applied when both parties are married. For they have no execuse to not be able to control their desires, I mean they have the legal means to practice this desire. In case the doers are not married, the punishment then becomes 80 lashes for both parties, again I say for both parties. This is what Allah sobhanhu wa Ta`ala commanded HabibHibee. In case administrations or people fail to apply this properly, it is not the fault of Allah. Again there are Muslims who drink alchol for example, others who don't observe prayer or fasting Ramadan. It is up to the human being HabibHibee. It is our choice to obey or disobey Allah. Allah sat the rules long time ago, in the manual (Quran) He revealed for mankind to operate in the best form. See He is the Creator, He is the Manifacturer. He Knows best how we may function. For us, we say oh no we have brains, we start to deregulate the Divine laws, then regulate what we deregulated. I know u might be saying what a long irrelevant post. Just be patient.

I am not sure if it was on this thread or in another one, that the issue of people being gays must be acceptable.

Well this is what I mean, u deregulated the divine laws accepting men to have sex which each other. Then started calling for the regulation of this deregulated code of asking to allow them marry in church. Why would u care for them to marry any way?

Take this other example, women during the peak of the feminism movement, said a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Then they choose to be lisbians, live together, and suddenly they want a child. What do they do? They go to a sperm bank. So they need a man and wanting to make a family.

It is only the human nature which is how Allah created us. U know what HabibHibee, even adultry committor knows deep inside that he/she is terribly wrong. This crime is totally against human nature, and when it spreads, the community is surely corrupted.

And of course I agree with the punishment ordained by Allah. And I think I made enough explanation for u to be sure that I fully endorse anything and any where that APPLIES sharia, I wish I live in a country that does.

Oh that was long I pity u:cool:

[Guest]

A good response but lets delve a little deeper but let me clear something up. You say I am here to defend my religion. I don't know what made you think I was here to defend a religion. Defend the choice of belief system, whether it be religious or otherwise is really what I am about.

Let me state something else that I am not comfortable about with Islam is its intolerance to other religions, at least in the middle east that seems to be the case. The teaching of the Qu'ran do state that non believers (Muslims) are to be shunned, will be sent to hell etc, etc and as far as I can tell (thus far and I may be wrong) the jews are pretty much done for. But we can come back to that later if you like, particularly since I haven't given it much more than a cursory glance. In Saudie I believe it is an offence to bring a bible to the country or import them, something like that.

My postings are getting long now !!

You brought up some interesting issues but I want to get back on track with Amina's case. There is no doubt that Amina had sex while she was not married and that is not what I want to discuss and I feel we are the end of this particular debate.

I really don't think that the punishment is at all acceptable in a "modern' free thinking society. Religion was built up around the environment and times it developed in. Surely the time is right for moderation and reform of some of the more extreme parts of religion ? Particulalry in regards to capital punishment ? I really can not think that a mercifull God would get any kind of satisfaction from the knowledge that some poor, uneducated, ignorant single mother is going to be pelted with rocks while the mob yell "God is great". Even the Taliban modernised it, they would knock a wall over on the person with a bulldozer !!

Nigeria knows the world is watching and I very much doubt that this woman will be killed. Howver, it does make me question the sanity of Islamic extremists.

Anyway, if you want to live in a country that implements sharia law why don't you go to such a region ? suadie maybe ? Iran ?

If you can, would you mind saying where you are located ?