What is Islam??????????????

[SisterJennifer]

<i>Originally posted by HabibHibee </i>Don't be posting the all merciful links etc. Just indulge me in what I need to know.  

Thanks [/b]

Post the specific vesrse that you are questioning and someone will answer for you. We will require your cooperation as well. Thanks again.

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b>You do not need to jump to unfounded conclusions, just answering my question would suffice.  Thanks, and take care. </b>

I thought my response indicated that I agreed Christianity was trying to expand.

Now, the "conclusion" I had come to was in response to your "unfounded conclusion". You assume I am here soley as part of an Islamic witch hunt or something. I pick that up from the tone of your responses and lack of "smilies". Incidently, can your lack of humour be traced back to the Qu'ran as I remember reading about humour/laughing being frowned upon somewhere in there.

I don't mean to offend SisterJennifer, I just want to discuss the issues that trouble me most about Islam and religion in general.

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b>Post the  specific vesrse that you are questioning and someone will answer for you.  We will require your cooperation as well.  Thanks again. </b>

The specifics of mutilating someone for a crime such as theft, the public beheading of someone and the stoning to death of women for such transgressions as adultary and sex outside of marriage are areas where I think reform is due to bring Islam in line with a modern world and whereby it can be accepted by the mainstream Western population.

[SisterJennifer]

<i>Originally posted by HabibHibee </i><b>You assume I am here soley as part of an Islamic witch hunt or something. I pick that up from the tone of your responses and lack of \"smilies\".  </b>

I don't mean to offend SisterJennifer, I just want to discuss the issues that trouble me most about Islam and religion in general.

It seems asumptions quite often are incorrect, and this one certainly is. I never wondered what your motive here might be. I was unaware that we were discussing anything humorous so forgive me for not being more jovial. The smileys don't hold much appeal for me personally, but if it will make you feel better,

And I take no offense.

You did not post which verse you are wondering about, but you did post the concept. Let me ask you a question: When you engage in intercourse do you often have an audience on hand to view the performance? I think you probably don't. The reason I ask is that there must be witnesses (at least 4, I believe) for the sentence of stoning to death to be carried out. This does not mean only the women, it includes the man as well. Some people look to how certain individuals or governments carry out their punishments and assume this is what Islam tells them to do. It seems to me, that this is a punishment that would be difficult to recieve because of the guidelines laid out in the Quran, but even if we were to escape the punishment in this life, will God turn a blind eye to it on the Day of Judgement? It is not man who needs to be feared, but the creator to whom we all return.

I do not care if you are a Muslim, a Christian, or a Jew. That rule is the same for all of us, by both the Quran and the Bible.

Maybe someone else here has something to add on this topic.

On another note: I am a 28 year old women who covers, and I can tell you that I can be a Muslim and be 'modern' at the same time. Islam is a religion for all times and all peoples.

These are special just for you

[Ali]

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

<b>Praise be to God, Lord of Creation; the Compassionate, the Merciful</b>

The first verses of the Qur'an.

Tafseer:

It befits man to commence all tasks in the name of God, his master. God is the source of all mercy and compassion. His blessings are continually descending upon creation. To commence any undertaking in His name is to pray that God, in His infinite mercy, should come to one’s assistance and bring one’s work to a successful conclusion. This is man’s acknowledgment that he is God’s servant, and also brings divine assurance of success.

There is also a hadeeth (Perhaps a hadeeth Qudsi), where the prophet says that "Allahs mercy prevails his wrath"

-- Ali

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

You did not post which verse you are wondering about, but you did post the concept.  Let me ask you a question:  When you engage in intercourse do you often have an audience on hand to view the performance?

Not often, no.

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i>  I think you probably don't.  The reason I ask is that there must be witnesses (at least 4, I believe) for the sentence of stoning to death to be carried out.  This does not mean only the women, it includes the man as well.  Some people look to how certain individuals or governments carry out their punishments and assume this is what Islam tells them to do.  It seems to me, that this is a punishment that would be difficult to recieve because of the guidelines laid out in the Quran, but even if we were to escape the punishment in this life, will God turn a blind eye to it on the Day of Judgement?  It is not man who needs to be feared, but the creator to whom we all return.

I do not care if you are a Muslim, a Christian, or a Jew.  That rule is the same for all of us, by both the Quran and the Bible.  

Maybe someone else here has something to add on this topic.

On another note:  I am a 28 year old women who covers, and I can tell you that I can be a Muslim and be 'modern' at the same time.  Islam is a religion for all times and all peoples.

These are special just for you

When looking at Islam (not Muslims) I look at the etxremities and its brutality and lack of compassion. Something it does have in common with a lot of religions is an obsession that sex is a crime against god (and has some very severe consequences in Islam), being homosexual is an affront to god etc. Don't want to go into that right now.

Anyway, I wasn't talking about rape and I wasn't talking about the justice system. What I was talking about was the act of brutality when such a heinous crime as having sex out of marriage or if someone commits adultery. The reason that this caught my attention was because of a case going on in Nigeria where a woman has been sentenced to death by stoning for having a child out of wedlock and or adultery. The appeal will be heard 25th Spetember I believe. This sentence is being carrried out according to strict Islamic sharia law and I have to say, this troubles me.

There was a website Taliban Online where I was discussing with contributers there (admin banned me) and one of them actually posted a video clip of a stoning. I did not view and the moderator removed it. It seemed that stoning was the way to go when punishing this type of thing. This does not sit well with me at all and capital punishment in general just so you know.

The fact that you cover yourself up is neither here not there, dress how you like. It is a choice, a choice that the women of Afghanistan were never afforded under the brutal regime of the Taliban.

Basically I have some concerns at the kind of society Islam wants to set up. It's one thing to believe in "God" but it is quite another to be forced to live by a religion, I think.

[SisterJennifer]

Hi HabibHibee,

To the best of my knowledge, the case of the woman in Nigeria (I believe there has been more than one) is a sentence which is not based on Sharia (Islamic Law) as was the case with some of the practices of the Taliban. This is why I brought up the point that you cannot judge the content of the religion by the actions of certain individuals.

There are currently an astonishing number of priests who have molested little children. Their victims number in the hundreds, if not thousands. How many childrens lives have been destroyed by these 'holy men' while the church pulls a huge cover-up for them? How about the election of a gay bishop? Or the Bishop who killed a man in a hit and run, and than fled the scene? Can a person than conclude that Christianity teaches that child molestation is acceptable? Or that while it is not OK to sleep with a woman, it is perfectly fine to sleep with a man? Or that murder is OK, as long as you don't get caught? Of course this would not be reasonable. But if we were to judge merely on outward actions, you could come to this conclusion. Misguided as it may be.

There is no such thing as a wicked religion, but there are people in every religion who will preform wicked actions.

The reason I brought up my own personal choice of life is that you implied that Islam must be reformed in order to be 'modern.'

If you have a sincere intention to better understand the religion of Islam, why not go to a local Mosque or Islamic center near you? We often hold open-houses, and are happy to recieve guests of other faiths at any time. In this way, you will be able to have a more personal dialoge with the Muslims.

Can't forget the smiley

Have a good day.

[Guest]

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

To the best of my knowledge, the case of the woman in Nigeria (I believe there has been more than one) is a sentence which is not based on Sharia (Islamic Law)  as was the case with some of the practices of the Taliban.  This is why I brought up the point that you cannot judge the content of the religion by the actions of certain individuals.  

Interesting. Do you think the problem lies with the fundamentals of Islam then ? Can I conclude that you disagree with this punishment ?

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

There are currently an astonishing number of priests who have molested little children.  Their victims number in the hundreds, if not thousands.  How many childrens lives have been destroyed by these 'holy men' while the church pulls a huge cover-up for them?  How about the election of a gay bishop?  Or the Bishop who killed a man in a hit and run, and than fled the scene?  Can a person than conclude that Christianity teaches that child molestation is acceptable?  Or that while it is not OK to sleep with a woman, it is perfectly fine to sleep with a man?  Or that murder is OK, as long as you don't get caught?  Of course this would not be reasonable.  But if we were to judge merely on outward actions, you could come to this conclusion.  Misguided as it may be.  

I'm not sure why you brought this up actually but something in here did strike me as interesting. They gay thing, are you against gays personally or for religious reasons or not at all, you accept people being gay. Because I am pretty sure a lot of religions are not keen on homosexuality.

:eek: I nearly forgot, I ahd to come back and edit this. :eek:

Didn't the prophet marry a nine year old or something ?

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

There is no such thing as a wicked religion, but there are people in every religion who will preform wicked actions.

Is that true ? Does Islam not teach that non believers are sent to fire ? Followers of false gods and all that ? What about religious cults, are they not wicked ?

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

The reason I brought up my own personal choice of life is that you implied that Islam must be reformed in order to be 'modern.'    

Not so much modern, there are many liberal parts to Islam. I saw a great documentery about divorce in Iran. Two cases of women wanting to divorce their husbands and how it was handled. It was very insightful. I will watch it againwhen it next airs.

<i>Originally posted by SisterJennifer </i><b></b>

If you have a sincere intention to better understand the religion of Islam, why not go to a local Mosque or Islamic center near you?  We often hold open-houses, and are happy to recieve guests of other faiths at any time.  In this way, you will be able to have a more personal dialoge with the Muslims.  

Can't forget the smiley

Have a good day.

And here comes the brush off, the "I don't want to talk about it" when pressed on the specifics.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Muslims, I just think there are some unsavoury parts to the Quran that are out of place in a modern, civilised society. That these things should not be taught or at least lived by.

It's an opinion.

[SisterJennifer]

<i>Originally posted by HabibHibee </i><b>Interesting. Do you think the problem lies with the fundamentals of Islam then ? Can I conclude that you disagree with this punishment ? </b>

You can conclude that I disagee with the ruling. They do not have the proper evidence against this women to carry out this sentance. Yes, I very strongly disagee. The problem is not with Islamic fundamentals. If they were using them, this would not be happening.

They gay thing, are you against gays personally or for religious reasons or not at all, you accept people being gay. Because I am pretty sure a lot of religions are not keen on homosexuality.

If someone wants to be gay, that's their choice, and I really don't care. However, they do not belong in the position of Bishop. Or are they just following the 'Do as I say, not as I do' approach? How can he preach that being gay is forbidden in the Bible and be openly gay. That is hypocrisy no matter how you look at it. Jesus warns in the Bible about these people, especially those in position of authority, such as a Bishop.

Didn't the prophet marry a nine year old or something ?

Yes, and the marrige was not consumated until she reached puberty. Something that was also commonly practiced by people of the Christian and Jewish faiths of that time.

Is that true ? Does Islam not teach that non believers are sent to fire ? Followers of false gods and all that ? What about religious cults, are they not wicked ?

Islam teaches that you are judged according to your knowledge. If you obtain knowledge, and reject it that is one thing. If you have never recieved any knowledge, how can you be judged according to something you do not know?

And here comes the brush off, the \"I don't want to talk about it\" when pressed on the specifics.

No, that is not my intention- you mistook me. I was merely saying that something like this may be interesting or beneficial for you. One on one dialoge, in my opinion, can be a very useful thing for all parties. We do this often, and I always enjoy it. I thought you might too.

Well, take care.

Jennifer

[Purgetroy]

well i dont have time to read the whole topic, but i'll reply to whatever i have time for right now,

They gay thing, are you against gays personally or for religious reasons or not at all, you accept people being gay. Because I am pretty sure a lot of religions are not keen on homosexuality.

my personaly 2 cents, we do have a problem with gay people. i'll make it closer to you. did you read the book The Silmarillion by Tolkien? In that book, the Illuvatar (god) created the elves. the elves were taken as realy highly creation for the Illuvatar. one of the Illuvatar's servants (higher than the elves (can be compared with angels)) called Morgoth, turned evil and wanted to insult the Illuvatar. What did he do? he took the elves (no he did not rape them ) and mutilated them into an extent that he turned them into evil twisted creatures called orcs.

now comapre that with real life. God created man and women, one half to fullfil the other. He created them to be together and to breed and bring life to the earth. then, when man twists his way and starts acting with another man in the same way a husband acts with his wife, he is, in a sense, insulting God and they way he created us with each organ to be used for a specific reason. using something for that which it was never meant to be is abusing the body God gave you.

Is that true ? Does Islam not teach that non believers are sent to fire ? Followers of false gods and all that ? What about religious cults, are they not wicked ?

consider looking through the eyes of Islam for while. just suppose, that Islam was the true religion. and then you have all other religions. one religion claims that a human prophet is god. another religion claims that there are several gods and godesses. another religion believes that aliens from outerspace created humans. all these accusations are false (remember you are considering that Islam is true), yet you are arguing that they should not be punished. what your saying, my friend, is that a person that knows and follows the truth with all its laws, should be equaly rewarded to a man who spends his life praying to a flase god, getting drunk and sleeping with whores. i dont see justice in that. a muslim sacrifices alot and abids by certain laws that takes him away from the pleasures of the earth. certainly he should be rewarded to a greater degree for his patience and love for the true God.

any religion which does not punish those who break its laws surely is a pathetic useless religion. to hell then, why should we abid by any law if we're going to end up just the same as those who live their lives doing everything?

Not so much modern, there are many liberal parts to Islam. I saw a great documentery about divorce in Iran. Two cases of women wanting to divorce their husbands and how it was handled. It was very insightful. I will watch it againwhen it next airs.

I read in the begining of the topic you saying that you will judge Islam by the Qoran and not by the followers. what happened to that?

concerning the "brutal" punishements. answer this, if your a criminal, where would you rather commit your crime? in a country where the sentence is choping your hand off (lets say you want to steal) or in a land where the maximum punishment would be a few years (or even months) in jail?

i believe that answers that. "brutal" punishments are not an act of punishing the people mainly. its mainly an act of stoping the crime before it happens. a person who is given a choice of either working hard to get fair money or risking loosing his hand would think a thousand times before stealing. the society is MUCH safer this way. believe me when i tell you man, here in saudi arabia, alot of stores close for prayer by just placing a cloth over their goods and then they go to mosque to pray.