Who made the decision

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


As far as Christians explain:


<b>God is not Jesus. God is Father, Son & Holy Spirit. Each Person completely possesses the SAME divine nature, which is why it is fitting to say: the Father is God, the Son (Jesus Christ) is God, & the Holy Spirit is God. Not 3 different gods, but 3 Persons in the One True God.
</b>


This is a spin off another thread:


http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=5134


According to this explanation, Jesus the human was put on the cross (however, he is also divine and possesses complete divine characteristics according to the above statement). Then why Jesus was saying:


Mathew: 27:45-50)


The Death of Jesus


45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[c] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "<b>My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?</b>"[d]


47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."


48Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."


50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.


The above mentioned set of verses actually raise many questions. However, I prefer to be focused on point by point for better presentation and understanding.


If Jesus was crying outloud to his god asking why he had foresaken him, taking in consideration that Jesus himself is both God and man together with the other icons of trinity. Then who made this decision of putting him on the cross? according to the statement he was not in agrement with it.


Who was the decision maker in this regard?


Thank u

[Steve Consilvio]

"What was silent in the father speaks in the son, and often I found in the son the unveiled secret of the father." - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche


Perhaps we should ask instead, why did we forsake God?


I think your focus on the trinity, while interesting for me, is an obstacle for you. Rather than using it to create distinctions between yourself and Christians, use it to unify. Afterall, both Christians and Muslims love God.


I am sure the decision was God's, just as God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son. God wants no more (or less) from us than what he expects from himself. In fact, isn't that what Jesus promises? He says that we will be served by God and Jesus in the afterlife, if we serve God in this life.


It is important that we serve God in this life, and not serve ourselves while claiming to serve God. He will not judge that very kindly.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Thank you Steve,


Now coming to this point, the decision was unilateral, I dont think the holy gost had any input in it. Jesus was suffering and asking why.


From this we conclude, that Jesus, although perceived as part of the trinity, thus, divine, didnt share this crucial decision, holy gost although perceived part of the trinity and also divine had nothing to do with it.


Cannt u see that this removes the divine characteristic from Jesus as well as the holy gost?


This leaves nothing but only One God who has no partners and associates to share decisions.

[Steve Consilvio]

No, not at all. God is in each one of us. We are all 'part' of the Divine.


Again, you are putting too much emphasis on too little.


Are looking for excuses to reject Jesus? Why make it so complicated?


Or, are you looking for excuses to reject Christianty/Catholicism?


Either way, you are looking for ways to reject, rather than a way to unify.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Steve, I m neither rejecting nor seeking unification. I m diiscussing facts, and these are not too little. We are discussing the being of Jesus, is he divine or not. In other words, should u and other Christians worship Jesus or worship the Only One Allah.


Now me rejecting Jesus, as a God, certainly, because he himself worships the Creator and not himself.


I highly respect him as a Prophet and Messenger and if I dont believe in him as such, my faith is annuled.


Now, if he while on the cross was calling for Ili Ili, this obviously indicates that Ili or God is in full control and is the only Being capable of rescuse and dispose of matter. This also clearly indicates that Jesus does not have a divine role neither does the holy spirit. Why dont you steve rather than trying to analyze why I m saying this or that and if i m placing emphasis on too little or too much, just focus on the core of interest in this discussion. Which is again, if the decision was the father's, why do u place other's with him as assoicates, i.e Jesus and holy spirit?


This will make it an easier discussion.

[Steve Consilvio]

This is a reply from another forum, but perhaps it will be helpful here.

It is impossible to teach people to love with hate, or courage through fear, or charity through greed, or humility through pride. If, however, you embrace love, courage, charity and humility, then you can teach them all.
Jesus is the high water mark in this regard.

Just because there are two parts to the divine, or three, does not mean that they cannot communicate with one another. I suppose when we are dead, we might know how exactly the divine is structured.


Jesus was on Earth as an example for us. The story is certainly rich, and everyone can take from it what they wish. Personally, I am happy for the medicine. You seem to be more interested in the who and how it was delivered; I am more interested in the medicine.


I find the same thing occurs in regard to politics. People are more interested in the gossip of personalities, rather than solving the problems.


What of the great problems that mankind struggles with is that they accept messengers, but are not too keen on the message. Unfortunately, I don't believe that virtue by association is a good argument. It is far easier to glorify God than to follow him, which is why there are many rebukes in scripture about the unimportance of rituals without the faith to go along with it.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! -Mathew 23

Again, Jesus himself puts God and the Holy Spirit as separate associates. The Qu'ran affirms both as well. The issue is only in regard to using the term trinity. Perhaps the trinity should not be taught because it is trouble for people like yourself to grasp. It is a wedge that the Devil can use to lead people astray. Hence, 'not good.' Paul similarly suggests that people should not engage in customs that others find troubling, even though there is nothing wrong with the custome itself, per se, but because it is better to not create unnecessary divisions.


Obviously, with all the various ways of worshiping one God, that advice has not been heeded. On the contrary, everyone is confident of their claim, and are stiff-necked and unyielding.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Steve I will be very brief and to the point.


You are loosing the whole point here, the point is that if Jesus is asking for the help of Ili Ili who is God, then, Jesus is seeking the help of the Deity he worships. A divine cannt worship another, otherwise, what does divine means? a divine means a being to be worshipped. Asking for the help of God, clearly indicates that Jesus is only a Messenger. As u mentioned in your post. Messengers who come to us humans communicating the Message of our Creator, calling us and them (the Messengers) to worship only Allah.


Are u getting this now, is this clearer?

[Steve Consilvio]

It was never not clear, for me. It is you who are struggling.


Jesus came as a man. He felt human pain, etc. You are taking one small thing WAY out of context.


A better question would be: Why did God prophesy 'this,' ad not 'that.' For whatever reason, this is the story we have.


Why do fish swim in the ocean and not fly in the sky? I cannot divine God's purpose beyond a belief that He wants us to come together as one, and it is man who creates obstacles.


Does a husband not ask his wife for comfort or help in a time of need, and vice-versa?


In fact, it could easily be argued the opposite way. God sent the prophets to no avail. He cannot come Himself, as he came to Moses, Abraham, etc. So He sent His Son in His image, but also in the form of man. Why was this the prophesy? I don't have a clue. How was it the prophesy is an equally problematical theological question. (How much freewill do we really have?)


But to hang all your interpretations on a simple utterance of despair is to miss the forest for the tree. Do we not all despair? Do we not suffer the more, the more good we do? There are a great many things to learn from the Crucifixion, <b>yet you come away saying that Jesus was not the Son of God, which is the same claim as those who crucified Him.</b>


That is not the company I would desire to be in, personally.


It is my opinion that ideas rule the world. I choose the ideas I believe carefully.

[SisterJennifer]

It is my opinion that ideas rule the world. I choose the ideas I believe carefully.

You and everybody else who believes what they believe.

[Steve Consilvio]

You and everybody else who believes what they believe.

Do you think? Most people believe things without examining them.


Of course, some people believe what they believe after examining it. The greatest problem, I suspect, is that it is hard to free ourselves and be objective about what we were indoctrinated with originally.


I suppose that those who were indoctrinated with something closer to the truth have a less traumatic journey than those indoctrinated with something farther separated from the truth.


For example, in this forum we are all (presumably) monotheists. In others, atheism is the norm. We split hairs here. In other places, it is more like cutting wood.