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AlShamms · 04-24-2009, 04:37 PM

Peace Wael,

Loving God and your neighbor are the two central themes woven throughout the old and new testaments. Love your enemy is a command given by Jesus Christ to his disciples:

Matthew 5:43-48

(43) You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy;

(44) But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

(45) To show that you are the children of your Father Who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the wicked and on the good, and makes the rain fall upon the upright and the wrongdoers [alike].

(46) For if you love those who love you, what reward can you have? Do not even the tax collectors do that?

(47) And if you greet only your brethren, what more than others are you doing? Do not even the Gentiles (the heathen) do that?

(48) You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus then told his disciples if they were to follow him, to keep his commandments. God commanded the Christian to love his enemy, He did not command his enemy to love the Christian.

John 15:10

(10) If you keep My commandments [if you continue to obey My instructions], you will abide in My love and live on in it, just as I have obeyed My Father's commandments and live on in His love.

Now Wael, you said:

"meeting people's need has nothing to do with loving them." Actually, it has everything to do with it as that is exactly what love is according to the Scriptures.

As far as why I come here it's simple, to present an accurate view of the Bible and the teachings contained in it.

wel_mel_2 · 04-25-2009, 02:53 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

'AlShamms'

Quote:Loving God and your neighbor are the two central themes woven throughout the old and new testaments. Love your enemy is a command given by Jesus Christ to his disciples:
Jesus then told his disciples if they were to follow him, to keep his commandments. God commanded the Christian to love his enemy, He did not command his enemy to love the Christian.

I do not argue whether Jesus commanded you to "love your enemy" or not, I only don't see it a practical teaching, I myself refuse to "love" my enemy because among the definitions given by Oxford dictionary for love is "Deep affection or fondness for person or thing" so who on earth will ever love his enemy and have deep affection towards him? , this is only a slogan attributed to Jesus chanted in Churches and on TV to win converts, however it is not followed AT ALL.

Quote:"meeting people's need has nothing to do with loving them." Actually, it has everything to do with it as that is exactly what love is according to the Scriptures.

I said it is not necessary that you love someone in order to be good to him, for example in Islam we are told that if a person does not love his wife anymore, he should not treat her bad, he should not have love affair with someone else, and he should not even divorce her, it was narrated once that the son of Umma Ibn Al Khattab told his father "I wanted to divorce my wife" Umar told him "Why O my son?" he said: "I don't love her" so thereupon Umar replied "Subhan Allah (Glory be to Allah) O my son, were all homes established upon love? So where is the protection (i.e. security) and where is the covenant?" 

The prophet Muhammad also taught us when someone asked him "To whom shall I give my daughter in marriage?" so he PBUH replied: "to a religious man, because if he loves her he would treat her with all kindness, and if he hated her he would never oppress her" 

So love has nothing to do with treating people kindly as you can see, maybe you are loving the charitable deed itself, but not neccessary the person.

Quote:As far as why I come here it's simple, to present an accurate view of the Bible and the teachings contained in it.

I like your honesty, so you are a preacher coming to an Islamic board to spread the doctrine of Christ (according to you), taking and advantage of the Muslims' hospitality and generosity and knowing very well that we will not kick you out of here and will never hesitate to wish you a good speed... you are welcome AlShamms.

Enjoy your stay and I wish you all the best insh a Allah.

Salam

Wael.

AlShamms · 05-03-2009, 03:05 PM

Wael,

I can understand your reservation for "loving" one's enemy. According to the world's view of it, loving one's enemy would indeed seem a useless and unusual activity. The purpose of loving one's enemy, is to show that just as Jehovah showed mercy and compassion for us who did not deserve it, so too, should we show mercy and compassion for those of our neighbors who don't deserve it. It's a spiritual way of showing our thanks to our God.

I understand what you mean about not mistreating one's wife. "Love" however is more than merely having affection for someone.

No, I'm not coming to "spread" the Gospel according to the Scriptures...not me. I come so that when topics about the Christian faith come up, those who are muslim can have an accurate account of what the Bible means and what it means to be a follower of The Way.

wel_mel_2 · 05-04-2009, 05:47 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

'AlShamms'

Quote:I can understand your reservation for "loving" one's enemy. According to the world's view of it, loving one's enemy would indeed seem a useless and unusual activity. The purpose of loving one's enemy, is to show that just as Jehovah showed mercy and compassion for us who did not deserve it, so too, should we show mercy and compassion for those of our neighbors who don't deserve it. It's a spiritual way of showing our thanks to our God.

Even God/Jehovah does not LOVE those who don't deserve it, does he love a rapist? Or does he love believers equally as he love sinners? Then he is unjust!!! The idea of loving ALL as presented by Christians is yet another myth, sorry to say but listen to your Bible.

1 Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.

2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.

3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man. (Bible KJV, Psalms 5:1-6)

Please note, the verse plainly says that God HATES the WORKERS OF INIQUITY, it does not say that he hates the SIN or the CRIME, in other words God hates those who sin against him, he hates HIS ENEMIES.

Here is another verse for your reference:

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:13

Paul here was quoting the OT as he said IT IS WRITTEN that God hated someone… here is the reference from OT…And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness
. Malachi 1:3

As I told you, God does not love everybody as the Christians would make us believe, and so human being too can never love their enemies in the manner Jesus described. That's what M.H Hart said in his book, that this teaching can be found in a perfect world and not here on earth.

The God who commanded you not to receive us in your homes does not love us, the God who tells you not to wish us well, does not love us, and you are still trying to convince us that you love your enemy? Please......

Your Bible clearly states that you should never associate yourselves with unbelievers, and of course Muslims are considered by you as infidles, so i really can't understand your position, whether you go against the Bible's teaching or you did not come across these verses before? Read II Cor 6:14-17 for yourself.

Quote:No, I'm not coming to "spread" the Gospel according to the Scriptures...not me. I come so that when topics about the Christian faith come up, those who are muslim can have an accurate account of what the Bible means and what it means to be a follower of The Way.

I am sorry, but I get my knowledge of the Bible from people who have spend almost their entire life searching and studying nothing else but the Bible and the history of your scriptures, so what have you got compare to them is very little, and yet you are claiming that whatever they said about the Bible carry no weight and that it is better for us to be educated through you. i am sorry but this makes no sense to me at all.

Salam

Wael.

AlShamms · 05-05-2009, 07:58 PM

Peace....

Quote:"Even God/Jehovah does not LOVE those who don't deserve it, does he love a rapist?"

You do not understand the God of the Bible. Jehovah does indeed love those who do not deserve it, that is what Grace is. To answer your question, yes Jehovah would love someone who has raped in the past, if that individual repents from their sin:

1 John 1:6-10

(6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

(7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

There is a difference between a repentant and unrepentant sinner.

Quote:"The idea of loving ALL as presented by Christians is yet another myth, sorry to say but listen to your Bible."

I agree, that is a myth presented by "SOME" Christians, those of us who know the truth understand that God does not love every individual. He loves those whom he has elected or chosen to Himself.

Wael, this will be my last post on this issue as you do not understand the concept of "love your enemy". I do not have affection for my enemy, but if my enemy has a need at the time I encounter him, I am commanded by my God to meet that need....that's it, that's all. I would like to address something about Jacob and Esau since you brought it up:

Romans 9:10-16

(10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

(11) For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

(12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

(13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

(14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

This is what it is all about, Jehovah will have mercy (Grace, unmerited favor) on whom he wills, and it has nothing to do with what we will, or try to do. Meaning we cannot will ourselves to salvation. It is God's choice alone.

Shamms

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 05-06-2009, 03:17 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

'AlShamms'

Quote:You do not understand the God of the Bible.

All Christians without exception, are trying to make us fee that we are dumb and can never understand unless we follow them blindly, so let me tell you something:

how can I understand when the gift of understanding was NOT given to me according to you?

How should I be blamed if it was not given to me?

How can I believe without understanding? But according to you,I will not understand unless I believe? And the circle never ends.

Quote:Jehovah does indeed love those who do not deserve it,

Complete your sentence please, UNLESS they repents (so there is no unconditional love as SOME 'i.e. the majority of Christians would say').

Quote:that is what Grace is. To answer your question, yes Jehovah would love someone who has raped in the past, if that individual repents from their sin:

I agree and this concept is found in Islam. That's why I said UNLESS he repents. And that is what your Bible confirms as well.:

“The soul that sinneth it shall die, the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked WILL TURN from all his sins that he hath committed and keep my statutes and do that which is lawful and right, HE SHALL SURELY LIVE, HE SHALL NOT DIE.
Ezekiel 10:20-21

No one is going to die for your sins, all you need to do is repentance, to keep God's commandments and to do what is lawful and right in order to be saved.

Quote:Wael, this will be my last post on this issue as you do not understand the concept of "love your enemy".

Please count with me, I don't understand the God of the Bible, and I don't understand the concept of love your enemy.

Quote:I do not have affection for my enemy, but if my enemy has a need at the time I encounter him, I am commanded by my God to meet that need

This is what I exactly I was saying, however I do not call this LOVE, it is no more than following God's commandment, i.e. to be well mannered and to turn evil with that which is good. And this was one of the characteristics of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, to do good to those who harmed him, not seeking their own pleasure, but God's alone, not because he loves them personally, but he was loving to see them guided.

That's my last comment as well regarding 'loving your enemy'.

Quote:Jehovah will have mercy (Grace, unmerited favor) on whom he wills, and it has nothing to do with what we will, or try to do. Meaning we cannot will ourselves to salvation. It is God's choice alone.

Another concept that was confirmed in Islam.

“For His Mercy, He specially chooses whom He pleases; for Allah is the Lord of bounties unbounded.
 Qur'an 3:74

Salam

Wael.

AlShamms · 05-07-2009, 04:02 AM

Peace....

Quote:"All Christians without exception, are trying to make us fee that we are dumb and can never understand unless we follow them blindly"

It's not about you being dumb nor is it about you following any particular person blindly. What it's about is divine revelation:

Matthew 16:15-17

(15) He said to them, But who do you [yourselves] say that I am?

(16) Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

(17) Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven.

This is the only way knowledge of the scriptures come, by divine revelation. There was a man named Nicodemus who came to Jesus in the night to speak with him, during their discourse, Jesus explained about new birth:

John 3:1-4

(1) NOW THERE was a certain man among the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler (a leader, an authority) among the Jews,

(2) Who came to Jesus at night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know and are certain that You have come from God [as] a Teacher; for no one can do these signs (these wonderworks, these miracles--and produce the proofs) that You do unless God is with him.

(3) Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.

(4) Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter his mother's womb again and be born?

John 3:10-13

(10) Jesus replied, Are you the teacher of Israel, and yet do not know nor understand these things? [Are they strange to you?]

(11) I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, We speak only of what we know [we know absolutely what we are talking about]; we have actually seen what we are testifying to [we were eyewitnesses of it]. And still you do not receive our testimony [you reject and refuse our evidence--that of Myself and of all those who are born of the Spirit].

(12) If I have told you of things that happen right here on the earth and yet none of you believes Me, how can you believe (trust Me, adhere to Me, rely on Me) if I tell you of heavenly things?

(13) And yet no one has ever gone up to heaven, but there is One Who has come down from heaven--the Son of Man [Himself], Who is (dwells, has His home) in heaven.

As far as repentance and unconditional love are concerned, repentance is only granted from God Himself while love is indeed based on a condition:

2 Timothy 2:24-25

(24) And the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome (fighting and contending). Instead, he must be kindly to everyone and mild-tempered [preserving the bond of peace]; he must be a skilled and suitable teacher, patient and forbearing and willing to suffer wrong.

(25) He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],

Quote:"however I do not call this LOVE, it is no more than following God's commandment, i.e. to be well mannered and to turn evil with that which is good."

And in the Bible that is called "loving your enemy"

Matthew 5:44-45

(44) But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

the next verse explains why we must do this, it isn't a suggestion, it's a command:

(45) To show that you are the children of your Father Who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the wicked and on the good, and makes the rain fall upon the upright and the wrongdoers [alike].

Shamms

wel_mel_2 · 05-07-2009, 06:00 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

'AlShamms'

Quote:It's not about you being dumb nor is it about you following any particular person blindly. What it's about is divine revelation:

According to you, the whole Bible is revealed or inspired by God, and so I am a human being like you who read the same Bible and understand it perfectly, now you are trying to tell me that "no I don't understand it" and this is exactly what is rejected by me, because I can read and understand Shamms, the only problem is that you are trying to make us feel that "we can't understand at all, the gift of understnading was not given to us" and the verses are crystal clear, need not any interpretation, but still we can't understand, this is nonsensical.

You did not comment on my questions about:

How can I understand when the gift of understanding was NOT given to me according to you?

How should I be blamed if it was not given to me?

How can I believe without understanding? But according to you,I will not understand unless I believe?

Quote:As far as repentance and unconditional love are concerned, repentance is only granted from God Himself.

So there is no blood sacrifice required for a person to be forgiven by God? All what it takes is a sincere repentance and not necessarly beliving that Jesus died for our sins, am I right?

Quote:And in the Bible that is called "loving your enemy"
Matthew 5:44-45

(44) But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

We have indeed presented our view points regarding this topic, so let the readers decides for themselves, which presentation is sensible and which one is fairytale.

Salam

Wael.

AlShamms · 05-09-2009, 03:17 PM

Wael,

Quote:Shamms: "repentance is only granted from God Himself"

Quote:"So there is no blood sacrifice required for a person to be forgiven by God? All what it takes is a sincere repentance and not necessarly beliving that Jesus died for our sins, am I right?"

No, that is incorrect. The law of blood atonement for sins was instituted in the garden and has not changed. Jesus Christ according to scripture, is the believer's atoning sacrifice:

Matthew 26:28

(28) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which [ratifies the agreement and] is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

So, blood is shed, sins are covered, repentance can be granted. In that order. To answer your questions in bold:

You can't.

Because God is sovereign

You can't.

wel_mel_2 · 05-11-2009, 02:34 AM

Bismillah, Assalamo Alikum:

 'AlShamms'

Quote:No, that is incorrect. The law of blood atonement for sins was instituted in the garden and has not changed. Jesus Christ according to scripture, is the believer's atoning sacrifice:
Matthew 26:28

(28) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which [ratifies the agreement and] is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

So, blood is shed, sins are covered, repentance can be granted. In that order. To answer your questions in bold:

You can't.

Because God is sovereign

You can't.

But what you are saying going against Ezekiel 10:20-21 where forgiveness is granted based on sincere repentance.

“The soul that sinneth it shall die, the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked WILL TURN from all his sins that he hath committed and keep my statutes and do that which is lawful and right, HE SHALL SURELY LIVE, HE SHALL NOT DIE. Ezekiel 10:20-21

Blood is not needed according to the above verse.

Salam

Wael.

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