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Wael,
Yes, Jesus was speaking to his disciples, however the call was universal; "If ANYONE desires", is indicative of including more than just the disciples he already had.
The Greek term for cross is <b>stauros </b>and is defined as an upright stake, especially a pointed one, a cross. So there is no difference between torture stake and cross.
You did interpret from your own desires Wael, just like you did the above verse about taking up one's cross referring only to his disciples and not the entire mankind.
Wael, are you saying you understood Jesus' words in Luke 18:31-34? If you're saying you indeed understand, did he tell the truth?
Jesus' message is not limited by time Wael, like the old testament prophets were. Jesus said of them:
Matthew 11:13
(13) For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied up until John.
Why? Because after John the Messiah came, there wouldn't be a need for a prophet after His coming.
No Wael, the commandment is not followed by many Christians because the Church is in an apostasy, like Scripture said it would be. I keep repeating myself and you keep missing it Wael, to love your enemy is to meet your enemy's need at a particular time. Let's say you did slap me hard across the face and ran off. And the next time I saw you, you were the one being slapped. I am not supposed to turn my back and do nothing as that is not meeting your need. Then we agree, loving one's enemy isn't about affection or allowing someone to just beat on you (although if they were beating you because you were a Christian, then that is a beating you are supposed to endure), but it is about showing mercy and compassion and returning good for evil.
I know the truth Wael, Jesus Christ, and that truth never hurts.
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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
<b>'AlShamms' </b>
Quote:Yes, Jesus was speaking to his disciples, however the call was universal; "If ANYONE desires", is indicative of including more than just the disciples he already had.
Not necessary, the interpretation might also be, "And Jesus SAID TO HIS DISCIPLES, IF ANYONE <b>OF YOU </b>etc…, not a general call as you said, the verse can be understood differently, who can tell the intention of Jesus?
Quote:The Greek term for cross is stauros and is defined as an upright stake, especially a pointed one, a cross. So there is no difference between torture stake and cross.
Here is the Greek scripture and the definition of "Stau-ros":
Quote:“<b>There is no evidence that the Greek word Stau-ros meant here a "cross"</b> such as the pagans used as a religious symbol for many centuries before Christ to denote the Sun-god"
Source: The appendix of "The Christian Greek Scriptures" Rendered from the Original language Page 768.
As you can see, the word simply means a stake without crossbeam. <b>So is it a cross or stake</b>? Because they are not synonymous terms AlShams, even Oxford dictionary defined both terms differently:
Quote:STAKE
1 a strong post with a point at one end, driven into the ground to support a tree, form part of a fence, etc. 2 (the stake) historical a wooden post to which a person was tied before being burned alive.
CROSS
1 a mark, object, or figure formed by two short intersecting lines or pieces (+ or &mul;). 2 an upright post with a transverse bar, as used in antiquity for crucifixion. 3 a cross-shaped decoration awarded for bravery or indicating rank in some orders of knighthood.
Sourcec: AskOxford.Com
Quote:Wael, are you saying you understood Jesus' words in Luke 18:31-34? If you're saying you indeed understand,
Of course I did understand what is written, there was nothing hidden or vague in that verse and he was not speaking in parables, that's why I am wondering whether he was talking to deaf people or insane who couldn't understand these simple words.
Quote:did he tell the truth
?
I don't believe that it is the truth; however I understood clearly what is written without the help of the Holy Ghost whom you claim that later on she helps the disciples to "understand" what he was talking about.
Quote:Jesus' message is not limited by time Wael,
And that's why he said:
" these twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them saying <b>GO NOT </b>into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans <b>ENTER YE NOT</b>. "But go ye rather unto the lost sheep of <b>THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL </b>
(to the Jews only)." MATTHEW 10:5-6
"But he answered and said, I am <b>NOT SENT</b> but unto the lost sheep of the <b>HOUSE OF ISRAEL </b>
(the Jews only). "Then came she and worshipped him, saying Lord, help me. "But he answered and said, it is not meet to take the children's bread and <b>CAST IT TO DOGS</b>
(the non-Jews). " MATTHEW 15:24-26
he came in a particular time to serve a particular group of people, not all mankind, that was his mission.
Salam
Wael.
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Wael,
If that were the instructions being given, it would have stated "of you". This is merely speculation on your part.
As far as Stauros is concerned, there are many types of this object used for torture.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon states:
2a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves
McClintock & Strong's Cyclopedia states:
The crux simplex, or mere stake “of one single piece without transom,” was probably the original of the rest. Sometimes it was merely driven through the man’s chest, but at other times it was driven longitudinally coming out at the mouth, a method of punishment called infixio. The afixio consisted merely of tying the criminal to the stake from which he hung by his arms.
The crux decussata is in the shape of the Greek letter X.
The crux commissa was in the shape of a T. This shape is often alluded to as “the mystical Tau”.
The crux immissa (or Latin cross) differed from the former by the projection of the upright post above the transverse beam. That this was the kind of cross on which our Lord died is obvious (among other reasons) from the mention of the “title” (q.v.), as placed above our Lord’s head...it is repeatedly found on the coins and columns of Constantine.
We can see from the above that there were a few types of "crosses" used for torture, the last being the one used to crucify Christ.
As for what Christ commanded his disciples, in the same book of Matthew a little further on, after Christ was crucified and rose on the third day we read:
Matthew 28:16-20
(16) Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
(17) And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
(18) Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, <b>ALL AUTHORITY</b>(all power of rule) <b>IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH</b> has been given to Me.
(19) <b>GO THEN AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL THE NATIONS</b>, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(20) Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).
Since this is clearly written, I'm sure you'll have no trouble understanding that Jesus' message was indeed intended for all mankind. Paul stated it this way:
Romans 1:16
(16) For I am not ashamed of the Gospel (good news) of Christ, for it is God's power working unto salvation [for deliverance from eternal death] to everyone who believes with a personal trust and a confident surrender and firm reliance, to the Jew first and also to the Greek,
(and fyi, the holy spirit is not a "she")
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05-05-2009, 12:49 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-05-2009, 01:01 AM by wel_mel_2.)
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
<b>'AlShamms' </b>
Quote:If that were the instructions being given, it would have stated "of you". This is merely speculation on your part.
So you don't see any speculations on Bible's translators part who add their own words in brackets to suite their own beliefs, and my 2 words which could be true you cannot swollow?
Quote:As far as Stauros is concerned, there are many types of this object used for torture.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon states:
2a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves
McClintock & Strong's Cyclopedia states:
The crux simplex, or mere stake “of one single piece without transom,” was probably the original of the rest. Sometimes it was merely driven through the man’s chest, but at other times it was driven longitudinally coming out at the mouth, a method of punishment called infixio. The afixio consisted merely of tying the criminal to the stake from which he hung by his arms.
The crux decussata is in the shape of the Greek letter X.
The crux commissa was in the shape of a T. This shape is often alluded to as “the mystical Tau”.
The crux immissa (or Latin cross) differed from the former by the projection of the upright post above the transverse beam. That this was the kind of cross on which our Lord died is obvious (among other reasons) from the mention of the “title” (q.v.), as placed above our Lord’s head...it is repeatedly found on the coins and columns of Constantine.
We can see from the above that there were a few types of "crosses" used for torture, the last being the one used to crucify Christ.
I've provided the source from the <b>CHRISTIAN GREEK SCRIPTURE </b>itself, YOUR NT, and they said NO EVIDENCE that this word mean cross... i can't imagine the fights of Christian groups even over the meaning of a simple word.
Quote:As for what Christ commanded his disciples, in the same book of Matthew a little further on, after Christ was crucified and rose on the third day we read:
as for baptizing all nations, hold it for a while, i will respond to that later as i have to go now... Take care and Salam.
Wael.
BTW... My apology to refer to the HG as SHE.
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Peace....
Quote:"So you don't see any speculations on Bible's translators part who add their own words in brackets to suite their own beliefs"
No, I don't have a problem with the words in brackets. In the Amplified Translation that I use, the translators are not adding words at a whim.
Quote:"I've provided the source from the CHRISTIAN GREEK SCRIPTURE itself"
No, you provided an opinion from the appendix from that translation...I simply offered a correct definition from a more reliable source.
Quote:"as for baptizing all nations, hold it for a while, i will respond to that later"
No need, I already know the meaning of "baptizing" in this instance means to teach, not to dip in water, as the context of the Scripture states.
Shamms
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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
<b>'AlShams'</b>
Quote:No, I don't have a problem with the words in brackets. In the Amplified Translation that I use, the translators are not adding words at a whim.
Are you of those who insist on using one version <b>ONLY</b> of the Bible and consider the rest to be corrupted? Please clarify. Thanks.
Quote:No, you provided an opinion from the appendix from that translation...I simply offered a correct definition from a more reliable source.
those who offered that "<i>opinion</i>" are the same people who have translated your NT Bible from Greek to English, they say that this version is "<b>RENDERED FROM THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE</b>", and at the same time they denied that the word Stau-ros means cross.
Quote:No need, I already know the meaning of "baptizing" in this instance means to teach, not to dip in water, as the context of the Scripture states.
I am not talking about the meaning of baptizing, Let me tell remind you why you've brough baptizing into the picture...
I was arguing that Jesus Christ peace be upon him came only to the Jews according to the Bible, and I've quoted verses Matthew 10:5-6 and 15:24-26 where he explicitly said that he came <b>ONLY</b> to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and not to all nations. Now, instead of answering my claim, you quoted another verse that contradicts the verses I showed you (<i>i.e. that actually Jesus came to all nations</i>) and this problem in Christianity has been going on all the time.
Salam
Wael.
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05-07-2009, 02:26 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2009, 02:39 AM by AlShamms.)
Peace....
Quote:"Are you of those who insist on using one version ONLY of the Bible and consider the rest to be corrupted?"
No, I'm not. I use a few different translations.
Quote:"at the same time they denied that the word Stau-ros means cross."
And they're wrong. Not all translations are created equal. But if you don't study the various translations themselves, who translated them, their background and so on, you won't know this.
Quote:"I was arguing that Jesus Christ peace be upon him came only to the Jews according to the Bible, and I've quoted verses Matthew 10:5-6 and 15:24-26 where he explicitly said that he came ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and not to all nations. Now, instead of answering my claim, you quoted another verse that contradicts the verses I showed you (i.e. that actually Jesus came to all nations) and this problem in Christianity has been going on all the time."
And this is the problem, with your logic and reasoning, you see contradiction. With my faith, I see expansion. Because you deny the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, you don't see how the message expanded. You say I didn't answer your question, but I did, with the best resource available...the scripture. Before his death, he was sent to the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel, but he did state:
John 10:16
(16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
This directly shows that the message Christ brought was not just intended for the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel. After his resurrection, he commanded his disciples to go out into the world and make disciples from every nation.
Shamms
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Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
<b>'AlShamms' </b>
Quote:No, I'm not. I use a few different translations.
Ok, one more question before making my point, do you believe that the KJV is as accurate as the Amplified version?
Quote:And they're wrong. Not all translations are created equal. But if you don't study the various translations themselves, who translated them, their background and so on, you won't know this.
They are wrong based on your "<i>form</i>" of Christianity but they are correct based on the teaching of other denominations.
Quote:And this is the problem, with your logic and reasoning, you see contradiction. With my faith, I see expansion. Because you deny the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, you don't see how the message expanded. You say I didn't answer your question, but I did, with the best resource available...the scripture. Before his death, he was sent to the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel, but he did state:
John 10:16
(16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
This directly shows that the message Christ brought was not just intended for the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel. After his resurrection, he commanded his disciples to go out into the world and make disciples from every nation.
I am sorry, but you are wrong, because Jesus before the alleged Crucifixion was telling his disciples that "<b>someone else</b>" will come after him ( i.e. comforter which will guide you to all truths) and as you know the comforter was <b>NOT JESUS</b>, therefore, Jesus' job was not to guide you into all truths but the comforter's, so Jesus' mission as you said was only for the Jews <b>prior his crucifixion</b>, after that the job was carried by the comforter, And so you are plainly trying to say that <b>ALL </b>his teaching before the alleged crucifixion was only for the JEWS, <b>INCLUDING "LOVE YOUR ENEMY"</b>. :D
Salam
Wael.
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Peace....'
Quote:"Ok, one more question before making my point, do you believe that the KJV is as accurate as the Amplified version?"
Yes, equal in accuracy, the Amplified however is written in modern language which is easier for some to understand. It also amplifies by including definitions of words.
Quote:"They are wrong based on your "form" of Christianity but they are correct based on the teaching of other denominations."
But since we know denominations are man made and therefore flawed, they are wrong.
Quote:"I am sorry, but you are wrong, because Jesus before the alleged Crucifixion was telling his disciples that "someone else" will come after him (i.e. comforter which will guide you to all truths) and as you know the comforter was NOT JESUS, therefore, Jesus' job was not to guide you into all truths but the comforter's, so Jesus' mission as you said was only for the Jews prior his crucifixion, after that the job was carried by the comforter, And so you are plainly trying to say that ALL his teaching before the alleged crucifixion was only for the JEWS, INCLUDING "LOVE YOUR ENEMY"
Alright, the comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, did indeed come after Jesus' assent into Heaven, but look at "how" it came:
John 14:26
(26) But the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, <b>Whom the Father will send in My name</b> [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. <b>And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you.</b>
John 15:26-27
(26) But when the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener, Standby) comes, <b>Whom I will send to you from the Father</b>, the Spirit of Truth Who comes (proceeds) from the Father, He [Himself] will testify regarding Me.
(27) <b>But you also will testify and be My witnesses, because you have been with Me from the beginning.</b>
John 15:26-27 goes hand in hand with what Jesus commanded his disciples:
Matthew 28:19-20
(19) Go ye therefore, and <b>teach all nations</b>, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(20) <b>Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you</b>: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
So to recap, Jesus commanded his disciples to go into the Nations (Gentiles) and teach them everything He had commanded them; including "Love your enemy". They were to do this after they received the Holy Ghost whom the Father, and Jesus would both send, would then lead them into all truth by bringing to their remembrance everything Jesus had taught them..."love your enemy" ;)
Shamms
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05-07-2009, 07:02 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2009, 07:03 AM by wel_mel_2.)
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
<b>'AlShamms' </b>
Quote:Yes, equal in accuracy, the Amplified however is written in modern language which is easier for some to understand. It also amplifies by including definitions of words.
Ok, in the KJV, there is one verse that bothering me:
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being <b>(AS WAS SUPPOSED) </b>the son of Joseph… Luke 3:23
You can read the same verse in the Amplified Bible but<b> the brackets were removed</b>, indicating that the words in brackets are actually <b>INSPIRED</b>, however, the KJV is telling us that the words "<i>as was supposed</i>" are not actually to be found in the original text, and therefore they put it into brackets. (BTW, in the Catholic version, the words "<i>as was supposed</i>" are also in between brackets).
My question is, which Bible is more accurate in this verse? Because if the words do not exist in the original text (as in the case of the KJV and CV) then the whole meaning will change.
Quote:But since we know denominations are man made and therefore flawed, they are wrong.
Your <i>denomination</i> is called <b>Non Denominational</b>; you know well that not all Non denominational Churches agree with each other.
Quote:Alright, the comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, did indeed come after Jesus' assent into Heaven, but look at "how" it came:
This is very funny, you are interpreting the word "comforter" by adding <b>WHICH IS THE HOLY GHOST </b>in the same fashion that the Bible did..."<b>But the comforter, WHICH IS THE HOLY GHOST </b>whom the father will send in my name... John 14:26
We don't need to be Bible scholars to sense that the words "<b>which is the Holy Ghost</b>" is only interpolation which is supposed to be in brackets as in the case of (as was supposed) in Luke 3:23, if the word comforter was actually meant to be the Holy Ghost, there will be no need at all for this addition "which is the Holy Ghost".
Salam
Wael.
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