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wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 01-02-2008, 07:19 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

I was surfing on the net as usual to collect some information regarding this topic and I found an interesting Christian website talking about how Jesus pbuh was born!! Here are some quotes.

Quote:290.010.000 Torrey: p287, T:I
Topic 10:How the Holy Spirit Worked in Jesus Christ.

290.010.010 Torrey: p287, T:I, P:1

POINT 10: Jesus Christ was begotten of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

In regeneration the believer is begotten of God; Jesus Christ was begotten of God in generation. He is the only begotten Son of God.

What the Bible Teaches.

Please note: the article says that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Spirit, then few lines later it says Jesus was begotten of God. The words God and Holy Spirit are used synonymously here proving that God and the Holy Spirit are the same thing.


So, as you can all see, this article clearly mentioned that JESUS CHRIST WAS BEHOTTEN OF GOD ALMIGHTY. But the Christians at the same time are telling us that Jesus pbuh is God Almighty. Not only that, but the Holy Ghost is also God Almighty, but they are not three separate Gods, the fact is, Christians say that; "they are ONE SINGLE GOD"

Christians also believe that Jesus is the only person who have raised HIMSELF from the dead after three days and three nights, but according to that website, it was the power of the Holy Ghost that raised Jesus from the dead and not Jesus, or maybe they were also using the words Jesus and Holy spirit synonymously to prove that they are ONE AND THE SAME THING.

Quote:POINT 90: Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

What the Bible Teaches.

Now in conclusion I would say:

1- Christians believe in one God, sometime He is called Jesus, some times is called Holy Ghost, and sometimes He is called God the father, but the fact is they are all the SAME THING.

2- Jesus (i.e God Almighty) was raised from the dead by the power of The Holy Ghost (i.e the same God Almighty). Don't be confuse
, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ONE AND THE SAME THING.

Now, here is the shock: few days ago, I remembered the Spirit/Holy Ghost (i.e. GOD Almighty) who appeared to Mary to impregnate her according to Luke 1:35, then I asked myself, was it Jesus Christ/God himself who visited Mary? Did Jesus BEING GOD and the same thing as the Holy Spirit, impregnate his own mother?
JUST WOWWWW... :banghead:

Look at the language of the Bible when explains HOW JESUS WAS BORN.

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, (I AM ASKING HOW?)

And the power of the Most High will overshadow you. (AGAIN HOW)

So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Here we go, the Holy Ghost CAME UPON MARY to impregnate her so that the "HOLY ONE" can be born. And at the same time Christians believe that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ONE. 

According to Islam, the Almighty God forbade our mothers upon us.

"Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful;- (Quran, 4:23)"

Alhamdulelah who made us Muslims. Alhamdulelah for the favor of Islam.

In another post, insh a Allah I will explain what does it mean when Allah says that Jesus is Allah's word and A spirit from Him, does it mean that Jesus himself is part of God or God himself? What is the Word of Allah Almighty, and what is the Spirit of Allah Almighty? Was Jesus pbuh all of Allah Almighty's Word and Spirit, or was he made from them? The answer to these questions are mentioned in the Qur'an plainly, just stay tuned till next post insh a Allah.

Salam

Wael.

umm Zachariah · 11-06-2007, 01:11 PM

Bismillah

Wa alaikum assalam

I must also say wow - what a thought! Haven't stroke me earlier. It's kind of 'overwhelming'...

So a very good question to raise brother.

Do you have the actual verse from the Bible that refers to 'impregnate her'?

wel_mel_2 · 11-08-2007, 11:43 PM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Do you have the actual verse from the Bible that refers to 'impregnate her'?

I've edited my post and so the biblical verses regarding this matter were added. let me know your comments insh a ALlah.

Salam

Wael.

***Muslimah*** · 11-10-2007, 06:59 AM

Bismillah

as salam alykom

Jazakum Allah khairan Wael, really interesting point that is worth pondering and discussion.

Hadji · 11-10-2007, 10:18 AM

Great argument. I'm surprised that nobody thought of it sooner. It's one of those things that people are too close to notice.

***Muslimah*** · 11-15-2007, 08:21 PM

Bismillah

as salam alykom

I m a bit surprised that none of our Nazarine members came to enlighten us about this important point.

Faith Hope Charity · (This post was last modified: 12-11-2007, 01:48 PM by Faith Hope Charity.)

Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all!

Hi Wael :wavey:

I didn't click on the link so I have no idea what or who those people are & I don't wish to speak on their behalf but I will offer my thoughts on your comments since you created a thread on this forum rather than write to the web master of the site. I was reluctant to do so though because we've always been through this.

Quote:Please note: the article says that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Spirit, then few lines later it says Jesus was begotten of God. The words God and Holy Spirit are used synonymously here proving that God and the Holy Spirit are the same thing.

Catholics believe that the Son of God is eternally begotten of the Father.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God Incarnate who was born of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Quote:So, as you can all see, this article clearly mentioned that JESUS CHRIST WAS BEHOTTEN OF GOD ALMIGHTY. But the Christians at the same time are telling us that Jesus pbuh is God Almighty. Not only that, but the Holy Ghost is also God Almighty, but they are not three separate Gods, the fact is, Christians say that; "they are ONE SINGLE GOD"

Jesus Christ can also be referred to as the only-begotten Son of God. He is one Divine Person with two natures - human & divine.

Three Distinct Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) subsist in the One Divine Substance (God).

Quote:Christians also believe that Jesus is the only person who have raised HIMSELF from the dead after three days and three nights, but according to that website, it was the power of the Holy Ghost that raised Jesus from the dead and not Jesus, or maybe they were also using the words Jesus and Holy spirit synonymously to prove that they are ONE AND THE SAME THING.

We could say the Father, Son &/or Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead.

“Appropriation” means assigning a work, name, or attribute to a Divine Person as though belonging to Him alone, whereas it belongs really to all Three Divine Persons. Generally, by appropriation, we assign to the Father Omnipotence & Eternity; to the Son, Knowledge & Wisdom, & to the Holy Spirit, Charity & all that goes with it.

The Father is often called the Creator, the Son Redeemer & the Holy Spirit Sanctifier, but in actual fact, all three works belong to the One True God & are common to the Three Persons in the Blessed Trinity.

It gets a little tricky when we speak about the Incarnation because only the Son of God assumed a human nature, but it was God (all Three Persons) who redeemed us & brought about salvation, through Jesus Christ – the Son of God Incarnate.

Quote:1- Christians believe in one God, sometime He is called Jesus, some times is called Holy Ghost, and sometimes He is called God the father, but the fact is they are all the SAME THING.

Not sometimes. Always!

Please don't refer to God as a "thing". If you acknowledge that there's no God but Allah, then you'd be a fool to think that you & I worship different gods.

Quote:2Now, here is the shock: few days ago, I remembered the Spirit/Holy Ghost (i.e. GOD Almighty) who appeared to Mary to impregnate her according to Luke 1:35, then I asked myself, was it Jesus Christ/God himself who visited Mary? Did Jesus BEING GOD and the same thing as the Holy Spirit, impregnate his own mother?
JUST WOWWWW... :banghead:

If you substitute the word "impregnate" with "overshadow" then there'd be no reason for you to think with a filthy mind & maybe, just maybe, you'd be able to understand this incredible mystery that Christians worldwide are celebrating in this current season. No one can kill my Christmas buzz at the moment.

Quote:Look at the language of the Bible when explains HOW JESUS WAS BORN.
The Holy Spirit will come upon you, (I AM ASKING HOW?)

And the power of the Most High will overshadow you. (AGAIN HOW)

So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Here we go, the Holy Ghost CAME UPON MARY to impregnate her so that the "HOLY ONE" can be born. And at the same time Christians believe that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ONE. 

According to Islam, the Almighty God forbade our mothers upon us.

"Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful;- (Quran, 4:23)"

Alhamdulelah who made us Muslims. Alhamdulelah for the favor of Islam.

I have to draw the line somewhere. Some of the absurdity that comes out of your mouth, Wael, is not worthy of a dignified response. In any case, I'll defend your right of freedom of silly speech anyday.

Quote:In another post, insh a Allah I will explain what does it mean when Allah says that Jesus is Allah's word and A spirit from Him, does it mean that Jesus himself is part of God or God himself? What is the Word of Allah Almighty, and what is the Spirit of Allah Almighty? Was Jesus pbuh all of Allah Almighty's Word and Spirit, or was he made from them? The answer to these questions are mentioned in the Qur'an plainly, just stay tuned till next post insh a Allah.

Looking forward to it, Pope Wael ;)


Take it easy!


Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality

***Muslimah*** · 12-12-2007, 07:33 AM

Bismillah

as salam alykom FHC long time, hope you are doing well.

Pls follow the colored replies:

Quote:Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all!
Hi Wael :wavey:

I didn't click on the link so I have no idea what or who those people are & I don't wish to speak on their behalf but I will offer my thoughts on your comments since you created a thread on this forum rather than write to the web master of the site. I was reluctant to do so though because we've always been through this.

Catholics believe that the Son of God is eternally begotten of the Father.

Who is also the Holy spirit as you stated many times, that they are one, the three persona?? Thus, this is what Wael is saying. Try to re read his original post, may be he is not using the exact phrasing as you are used to. And I advice you to click the link, it says nothing different from what you explained.


Jesus Christ is the Son of God Incarnate who was born of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Thus, he is not god, or part of god!!!!!!

Jesus Christ can also be referred to as the only-begotten Son of God. He is one Divine Person with two natures - human & divine.

Fine you told us this many times, but then this makes him part of god, god?? not part of god at all????????????


Three Distinct Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) subsist in the One Divine Substance (God).

As the son is part of this divine substance, thus, the son had a role in the conception?? or was it only the duty of the father and holy spirit.


We could say the Father, Son &/or Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead.

Thus, he was helpless, he had no power, he couldnt do while in his grave what he is capable of during his life??


“Appropriation” means assigning a work, name, or attribute to a Divine Person as though belonging to Him alone, whereas it belongs really to all Three Divine Persons. Generally, by appropriation, we assign to the Father Omnipotence & Eternity; to the Son, Knowledge & Wisdom, & to the Holy Spirit, Charity & all that goes with it.

Sobhan Allah thank you soooo much FHC, you finally replied to almost a 2 year question I raised and no Nazrine member gave me an answer, thus, each person is assigned certain attribution. That makes it a must for 3 of them to work together, to compliment each other's missing attributions. Individually speaking, thus, they are not complete.
T


he Father is often called the Creator, the Son Redeemer & the Holy Spirit Sanctifier, but in actual fact, all three works belong to the One True God & are common to the Three Persons in the Blessed Trinity.

It gets a little tricky when we speak about the Incarnation because only the Son of God assumed a human nature, but it was God (all Three Persons) who redeemed us & brought about salvation, through Jesus Christ – the Son of God Incarnate.

Let us put this aside for now.


Not sometimes. Always!

Please don't refer to God as a "thing". If you acknowledge that there's no God but Allah, then you'd be a fool to think that you & I worship different gods.

If you substitute the word "impregnate" with "overshadow" then there'd be no reason for you to think with a filthy mind & maybe, just maybe, you'd be able to understand this incredible mystery that Christians worldwide are celebrating in this current season. No one can kill my Christmas buzz at the moment.

I have to draw the line somewhere. Some of the absurdity that comes out of your mouth, Wael, is not worthy of a dignified response. In any case, I'll defend your right of freedom of silly speech anyday.

Looking forward to it, Pope Wael ;)

Take it easy!

Faith Hope Charity Openness Tolerance Equality

AlShamms · 12-16-2007, 06:25 PM

Peace.....

It always seems to amaze me that whenever we speak about the way Mary became pregnant for some reason people can't seem to move beyond the physical act of intercourse. Let me add on to this topic for the benefit of those who are not believers in Christ.

Quote:Please note: the article says that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Spirit, then few lines later it says Jesus was begotten of God. The words God and Holy Spirit are used synonymously here proving that God and the Holy Spirit are the same thing.
So, as you can all see, this article clearly mentioned that JESUS CHRIST WAS BEHOTTEN OF GOD ALMIGHTY. But the Christians at the same time are telling us that Jesus pbuh is God Almighty. Not only that, but the Holy Ghost is also God Almighty, but they are not three separate Gods, the fact is, Christians say that; "they are ONE SINGLE GOD"

Quote:Now, here is the shock: few days ago, I remembered the Spirit/Holy Ghost (i.e. GOD Almighty) who appeared to Mary to impregnate her according to Luke 1:35, then I asked myself, was it Jesus Christ/God himself who visited Mary? Did Jesus BEING GOD and the same thing as the Holy Spirit, impregnate his own mother? JUST WOWWWW...
Look at the language of the Bible when explains HOW JESUS WAS BORN.

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, (I AM ASKING HOW?)

And the power of the Most High will overshadow you. (AGAIN HOW)

So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Here we go, the Holy Ghost CAME UPON MARY to impregnate her so that the "HOLY ONE" can be born. And at the same time Christians believe that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ONE.

Ok, first point, "Jesus being begotten of God or the Holy Spirit or both" To answer this question we must understand the nature of God as it is revealed to the believer in the Bible.

Genesis 1:1-3 states:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Ok, so in these first three verses of the Bible we see 1. God and 2. The Spirit of God.

When God spoke the light into existence all he had to say was "Light Be!" and there was light. Now, the reason why the Bible calls "The Spirit of God" the "Holy Spirit" is very simple and plain. Jehovah or Yahovah or YHVH or LORD God told his chosen people the Israelites "Be ye holy for I am holy". This is recorded in both the Old Covenant in Leveticus chapters 11, 19 and 20 where Jehovah expressed this to his people through his servant Moses; and also in the New Covenant in the first letter Peter (a companion of Christ) wrote to the believers who were scattered abroad.

Now with this foundation of 1. God speaking his will into existence and 2. God being holy and therefore His Spirit being holy; let's look at the Biblical account of Mary being told she would be given a son.

This is taken from the Gospel or Good News of Luke chapter one verses 26-35 (The translationliteration is the LITV or Literal Translation of the Bible):

And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin who had been betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace! The Lord is with you. You are blessed among women! And seeing this, she was disturbed at his word, and considered what kind of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, Do not fear, Mary, for you have found favor from God. And behold! You will conceive in your womb and bear a Son, and you will call His name Jesus. This One will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob to the ages, and of His kingdom there will be no end. But Mary said to the angel, How will this be since I do not know a man? And answering, the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God.

Let us look closely at verse 34:

But Mary said to the angel, How will this be since I do not know a man?

Mary was also thinking about physical sexual intercourse and knew she could not be pregnant because she had not known (had sex with) a man. In response to her question the angel or messenger of God explained to her in verse 35:

And answering, the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God.

In the same way the Spirit of God moved in Genesis, the Spirit of God would come upon Mary and place a child in her womb. No physical intercourse is needed when Jehovah God is working!

Quote:Christians also believe that Jesus is the only person who have raised HIMSELF from the dead after three days and three nights, but according to that website, it was the power of the Holy Ghost that raised Jesus from the dead and not Jesus, or maybe they were also using the words Jesus and Holy spirit synonymously to prove that they are ONE AND THE SAME THING.

For the sake of answering this second point I took a look at the website you cited Wael and had you paid closer attention, your question would have been answered and the point you raised would have been resolved. According to website you took issue with point 90 and made the statement that maybe christians use Jesus and Holy Spirit interchangeably to prove they are one and the same thing. Take for example what John (a companion of Jesus) recorded Jesus saying in the tenth chapter verses 17 & 18:

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

"Power" in this verse is the Greek word exousia and means: (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

This exousia was was physically seen with Jesus at his baptism as recorded by Matthew (a companion of Jesus) in the 3rd chapter verses 13-17:

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness."
Then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

This account was also recorded by Mark (another companion of Jesus, there were twelve in all) in chapter 1 verses 9-11 and by Luke in chapter 3 verses 21 & 22.

To recap, power was given to Jesus Christ to lay down his life and pick it up again. That power or authority or ability is called the Holy Spirit, so it is not wrong in saying the Holy Spirit raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Just as it is not wrong in saying it was Jesus himself who exercised this power and raised himself from the dead.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.

Shamms

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 12-27-2007, 08:00 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Hi Wael

Salam FHC, how are you doing? :)

Quote:I didn't click on the link so I have no idea what or who those people are

They are just Christians.

Quote:Catholics believe that the Son of God is eternally begotten of the Father.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God Incarnate who was born of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You are not helping here, the real question is, do you believe that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ONE or not?

Quote:Jesus Christ can also be referred to as the only-begotten Son of God. He is one Divine Person with two natures – human & divine.
Three Distinct Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) subsist in the One Divine Substance (God).

Again, you are confusing everybody. You believe that the persons who complete the Trinity are in fact ONE, and in conclusion I would say that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are just the same thing..., so make it simple FHC and answer my question, are they ONE or not, are they (Jesus and the Holy Ghost) the same ONE GOD, or are they separate TWO GODS? !!!

Quote:We could say the Father, Son &/or Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead.

Ok, I say he did not raise himself from the dead as claimed by Christians.

Quote:“Appropriation” means assigning a work, name, or attribute to a Divine Person as though belonging to Him alone, whereas it belongs really to all Three Divine Persons. Generally, by appropriation, we assign to the Father Omnipotence & Eternity; to the Son, Knowledge & Wisdom, & to the Holy Spirit, Charity & all that goes with it.
The Father is often called the Creator, the Son Redeemer & the Holy Spirit Sanctifier, but in actual fact, all three works belong to the One True God & are common to the Three Persons in the Blessed Trinity.

It gets a little tricky when we speak about the Incarnation because only the Son of God assumed a human nature, but it was God (all Three Persons) who redeemed us & brought about salvation, through Jesus Christ – the Son of God Incarnate.

We are talking about Jesus and the Ghost being ONE, now you makes me understand that Jesus alone is NOT GOD, the Holy Ghost alone is NOT GOD, and the Father alone is NOT GOD, you are trying to say Father, son and Holy Ghost when together ONLY they complete the ONE TRUE GOD, but each one on his own is NOT GOD.

Quote:Not sometimes. Always!

I insist on "sometimes" because, you can't find anyone during the OT time calling God Jesus for example, and that's why I used the term 'sometimes'. Even today, no Christian will always pray to God addressing him by Trinity, he will either pray to Jesus or to the Father.

Quote:Please don't refer to God as a "thing". If you acknowledge that there's no God but Allah, then you'd be a fool to think that you & I worship different gods.

I don't claim that we worship different gods, I always say that our concept of that God is totally different, that's it.

Quote:If you substitute the word "impregnate" with "overshadow" then there'd be no reason for you to think with a filthy mind & maybe, just maybe, you'd be able to understand this incredible mystery that Christians worldwide are celebrating in this current season. No one can kill my Christmas buzz at the moment.

After the visitation of the Holy Ghost to Mary, was she found pregnant for 9 months , If she was not impregnated by the Holy Ghost, then we should not call her pregnant in the first place, but the fact is that she was found pregnant immediately after the Holy Ghost CAME UPON HER. and so take it easy FHC, the term impregnate is 100% correct. I do agree that I too will be angry if someone told me that Mary carried "God Almighty" in her womb for 9 months, but Alhamdulelah this is not the case when Islam is concerned.

Quote:I have to draw the line somewhere. Some of the absurdity that comes out of your mouth, Wael, is not worthy of a dignified response. In any case, I'll defend your right of freedom of silly speech anyday.

Calm down FHC and watch your temper, try to offer some solutions to your problems instead of giving me some nonsensical comments which have nothing to do with our topic, or else stay away from your computer or brown some Catholic websites, maybe their Encyclopedia :biggrinlove:

Salam

Wael.

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