Trinity analogies.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.


I know you were directing this post to sister Muslimah, but I could not prevent myself from being silent. so allow me my dear sister Muslimah to comment on this post.

Muslimah, this is answer to the following point you made;
<b>Was Jesus capable to continue performing those actions while in the belly of earth and dead????</b>


Jesus could do anything that he wanted while buried.

I would like to tell you what I've said to FHC earlier:<b> TALKING SOMETIMES MEANS NOTHING AT ALL</b>. you need to prove your point otherwise it is meaningless. Anyways... your statement is simply false, because Jesus himself declared that he can do <b>NOTHONG</b>
of his own, and I hope that you can comprehend the meaning of the word <b>NOTHING.</b>



<b>John 5:30 </b>


I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but
the will of the Father which hath sent me.


As you can see, I support my arguments with scriptures, so the fact is, Jesus was not able to do anything except by <b>HIS GOD'S will</b>, and so we don't expect him to do <b>anything
</b> else after his alleged death.

While dead he performed the greatest miracle – he rose himself from the dead. By performing this miracle, even though he was physically lifeless, shows that he was still able to “perform those duties”.

If Jesus was able to do <b>NOTHING</b> of his own while he was alive, how can we expect him do ANYTHING
when he was dead? Plus, where did<b> HE SAY </b> that <b>"I JESUS ROSE MYSELF FROM THE DEAD"</b>? Again, you are just repeating what you've been told in your Church and scripture is the last thing for you to quote in order to support your claims.

If Jesus wished to perform those other miraculous actions while in the tomb, he could have,

Again, false claim going straight against your Bible; Jesus himself said:


<b>John 12:49- 50</b>


49 For I have not spoken of myself; but
the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


So even when Jesus was talking to his people before his alleged death, was not his own words, it was <b>HIS GOD'S COMMANDMENT</b>. He taught Jesus <b>what he should say and what he should speak</b>, this is the normal duty of the messengers of God. so Jesus was simply an instrument used by God to perform those miracles, <b>they were not his own at all according to your book of authority.</b>


P L U S... Plus, Peter the closest friend of Jesus at that time said about him the followings:


<b>Acts 2:22 </b>


Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man
approved of God among you <span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%;"><b>by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did</b> <b>by him</b> in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:</span>


Clearly Jesus did nothing at all; it was God Almighty who is acting through this man of God as the above verse mentioned. so don't exaggerate in your praise for this great man, he was a man of God, sent to the Jews, and God supported his prophethood with miracles, signs and wonders. So don't attribute God's miracles to a MAN.

however he was to fulfill scripture and remain dormant for three days, then raise himself

We have proven by Allah's help that Jesus <b>did not fulfill this prophecy</b>, you may check out this link if you wish. Jesus and Jonah.. THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS.

It was through this miracle, that he not only proved to all that he was God, and that he had also conquered death.

Well, Saint Paul (<b>the real founder of Christianity</b>) has something else to say which contradicts your claim that "<i>Jesus rose himself from the dead</i>"


<b>Acts 4:10</b>


Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead,



<b>Acts 13:30 </b>


But God raised him from the dead:


You can also see <b>Galatians 1:1 , Colossians 2:12 </b> and <b>1 Thessalonians 1:10 </b>


None of these verses mentioned that Jesus rose himself from the dead, it says <b>God raised him from the dead,</b> and this yet another proof that Jesus himself was <b>NOT A GOD</b>.

Hope my explaination was clear,

And I hope our explanation was clear too insh a Allah.


Salam


Wael.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


O Wael, I dont mind at all you making those comments, jazakum Allah khiaran, close to what I was going to say, except as u probably know i use my mind and not the bible. Any way, Fisher, I still have a question - believe it or not - regarding your explanation.


<b>he was to fulfill scripture and remain dormant for three days
</b>


Who established this scripture???


My second long awaiting point is: You said Jesus prayer and peace be upon him, was dead yet alive. You explained that his spirit, bones... were alive. Who created his spirit?

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Fisher I thought to make things easy to come up with more points all at once.


Now as we agreed - not sure if u agree with us - that those duties are not divine but merely miracles. For the sake of argument, well they are divine.


But we shouldnt forget that being divine has more important duties to perform than just healing leprosy, ..etc. How about commanding births, deaths in other parts of the world (including even jin and angles), maintaining skies erect, sending down rain, commanding sun to rise, maintaing galaxies...etc. Who performed all those duties while Jesus was Idle?? I will use idle to make it clearer to u? He only held for 3 days to fulfill scripture just sitting down waiting and not performing his duties, thus, he neglected them?


What is more important why did he have to conquer death, i mean being god why should he put himself in equal foot with his own creation, death is his creation isnt it??? he didnt have to degrade himself to the level of his creation and be in competiton with it, did he????

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Sorry Fisher for coming again without waiting for your reply, but just to fill more gaps.


You said that


<b>However, the flesh and bones were still existent, and so was his spirit and divine nature</b>


You really need to make up your mind, was he dead with alive flesh, bones and spirit? in such case, why does he even need to rise from the dead, he is not dead. Are you getting this point, i hope you do.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Fisher, I wonder what took u so long?? hope you are doing fine. Are you waiting for others (FHC for example) to attend to these points???


I m still waiting for your appearence.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Sobhan Allah, I hope FOM is fine.


Another point that I feel like raising here:


32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


Mark 13:32


Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...3:32&version=31 (New International Version).


Any input :conf06: How come the son who is a god as well, to be precise a form of H2o a form of god does not know the hour which is a plain divine issue?????

[reepicheep]

<b>Muslimah asked: How come the son who is a god as well, to be precise a form of H2o a form of god does not know the hour which is a plain divine issue?????</b>


This is a complex topic on which entire books have been written. A person could probably spend their entire lives trying to understand this passage.


If you wish to read a good overview, try the following webpage:


which summarizes the thoughts of various Christian theologians including Athanasius, Hilary of Poitiers, Gregory of Nazianzus, Ambrose, Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and many others.


*********************


To summarize my personal view:


God exists "outside" of space and time. i.e., space and time are things that God created. Since God is outside of space and time, all of history (past, present, and future) is displayed before Him, and he has knowledge of everything.


But, God also chose to become fully human and enter his creation (i.e., enter space and time). While "inside" His creation, He is limited by human weakness (i.e., like everyone else, he must follow the laws of space and time). So, during the time Jesus walked on Earth, He did not have infinite knowledge. But when outside of space and time, Jesus does have infinite knowledge.

[Hadji]

God exists "outside" of space and time. i.e., space and time are things that God created.

Just curious... is it a common belief among Christians that God is omnipresent?

[reepicheep]

<b>Hadji: Just curious... is it a common belief among Christians that God is omnipresent?</b>


According to the bible, God the Father is omnipresent:


<i><b>"Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the Lord. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the Lord. Jeremiah 23:24</b></i>


God the Son is omnipresent:


<b><i>"Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matthew 28:20</i></b>


and God the Holy Spirit is omnipresent:


<i><b>"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Where can I flee from Your presence? If I go to the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in the depths, You are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there Your hand will guide me, Your right hand will hold me fast." Psalms 139:7-10</b></i>

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


alright reepi you really need to make up your mind, because you and other fellow Nazarine keep falling into this problem.


The verse is very very very clear, only THE FATHER know. The Son Does not know.


According to your statement, he is not the son he is god. Now who is he???


*********************


<b>But, God also chose to become fully human and enter his creation (i.e., enter space and time). </b>