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wel_mel_2 · 09-18-2007, 07:44 AM

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

As requested by brother Hadji, I am going to try my best insh a Allah to present the real picture of "the Holy Ghost" according to the Biblical account.

Brother Hadji asked on the other thread:

Quote:Why do Christians regard the Holy Ghost as a part of God? Is there anything in the Bible that states that?

No brother, the Bible never claimed that the Holy Ghost is God Almighty, and that doesn't mean that the Holy Ghost in the Bible is considered to be even part of God.

Now Christians told me that the HOLY GHOST is the SPIRIT OF GOD ALMIGHTY, and so while reading their Bible I've found that the purpose of this "Spirit" is to be breathed by God Almighty into our mother's womb so that we can come into existence.

When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth. (Psalm 104:30)

This is just one of the roles of the Holy Spirit found in the Bible.

Now, if it is really God or part of God, then the Holy Ghost should process the qualities of God Almighty, (i.e. All knowing, All seeing, All powerful, etc) however, this is not the case. If you read the Bible, you will notice that the Holy Spirit is not All knowing and so you can easily conclude that it is not God Almighty.

Matthew 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

Here we can see that the disciples of Jesus were asking him about the Day of Judgment, or the end of time and Jesus responded that only the Father knows about this day, indicating that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not All knowing and so not one with God as Christians claim.

I remember that I've brought this point to our Christian guests here sometimes ago but they argue that Jesus AS A MAN didn't know about the hour, but in as a Divine he knew perfectly. Now I am asking, how about the Holy Spirit? Jesus claims that NO ONE but the Father knows about the last day, which means that even the Holy Spirit doesn't know therefore, it is not God or part of God!!

The Bible said:

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none
like me, (Isaiah 46:9)

None means no one, and according to the Christians, the Holy Spirit is a person/one , and in the above verse, God Almighty declared loud and clear that NO ONE is like Him, including the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit is heavenly being created by God, and God says in the Bible that nothing in HEAVEN is compared to him, proving that the Holy Ghost is not God or part of God.

For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? (Psalms 89:6)

Of course this is not it, there are still some verses talking about the Holy Spirit and its roles, there are other verses speaks of "different Holy Spirits", there are plenty of other verses showing that the Holy Spirit is just the creation of God Almighty etc.. but I guess we wait for awhile till we get some feedbacks and comments.

Salam

Wael.

Hadji · 09-18-2007, 06:34 PM

Hmm...?

Quote:When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth. (Psalm 104:30)

Quote:This is just one of the roles of the Holy Spirit found in the Bible.

Here is a verse from the Qur'an that is similar:

الحجر (آية:29): فاذا سويته ونفخت فيه من روحي فقعوا له ساجدين

Al Hijr 29: So, when I made him and have breathed into him of My spirit, do ye fall down,preostrating yourselves unto him.

Yet, Muslims don't see the spirit in this verse as the "Holy Spirit". Can you establish that the Spirit in Pslams and the Holy Spirit are one and the same? As you know, the Holy Spirit in the Qur'an refers to the angel Jibreel, who doesn't create...

By the way, I use the verse from Mark a lot too. ^_____^

The mystery of the Holy Spirit is very interesting isn't it? Thoughts?

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 09-19-2007, 05:07 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Quote:Al Hijr 29: So, when I made him and have breathed into him of My spirit, do ye fall down,preostrating yourselves unto him.
Yet, Muslims don't see the spirit in this verse as the "Holy Spirit".

Why not? God Almighty breathed into mankind from HIS Spirit; shall we not consider HIS SPIRIT to be Holy? The only difference is that we don't consider HIS Spirit to be God Himself, but rather His creation. So whether that Spirit is Gabriel or not, we are told in the Qur'an that this Spirit is God's Creation and not God Himself as Christians claim.

"The Day that the Spirit and the Angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right. Qur'an, 78:38"

"A questioner asked about a Penalty to befall- The Unbelievers, the which there is none to ward off,- (A Penalty) from God, Lord of the Ways of Ascent. The Angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years: Therefore do thou hold Patience,- a Patience of beautiful (contentment). Qur'an, 70:1-5"

"Therein come down the Angels and the Spirit by God's permission, on every errand: Qur'an, 97:4)"

"Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to God) Most Gracious as a servant. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly. And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment. On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (God) Most Gracious bestow love. Qur'an, 19:93-96)"

The above verses in my opinion are enough proof that the Holy Spirit, or any other created beings according to the Qur'an is not part of God Almighty, but His creation.

Quote:Can you establish that the Spirit in Pslams and the Holy Spirit are one and the same?

Yes of course, because according to Christians as I indicate in my first post that the HOLY SPIRIT is GOD'S SPIRIT and this is exactly what the verse in Psalms says.

Quote:As you know, the Holy Spirit in the Qur'an refers to the angel Jibreel, who doesn't create...

As far as Gabriel is concerned, his main duty was to deliver the message of God Almighty to His messengers, and yes you are right, he doesn't create.

Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. Qur'an 16:102

The same role of the Holy Spirit (Gabriel), as a messenger and a supporter from Allah, can be understood from Luke 22:43.

"And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

"For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him (Luke 1: 15)

For he (Barnabas) was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith, and much people was added unto the Lord.” (Acts 11: 24)

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. (Acts 5: 32)

and lastly:

O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, was [no more than] a messenger of Allah and His word ["be" and he was] which He bestowed to Mary and a spirit [ruh] created by Him;
Qur'an 4:171

Quote:The mystery of the Holy Spirit is very interesting isn't it? Thoughts?

Yes indeed.

They ask thee concerning the Spirit.

Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord:

Of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you."

If it were Our Will, We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration:

Then wouldst thou find none to plead thy affair in that matter against Us.

Qur'an 17: 85-86

Salam

Wael.

umm Zachariah · 09-23-2007, 08:33 AM

Bismillah

Assalamu alaikum

Brother Wel Mel 2

Thanks for starting this subject, it is interesting.

***Now, if it is really God or part of God, then the Holy Ghost should process the qualities of God Almighty, (i.e. All knowing, All seeing, All powerful, etc) however, this is not the case. If you read the Bible, you will notice that the Holy Spirit is not All knowing and so you can easily conclude that it is not God Almighty.

Matthew 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only***

I think this is very clear. Only one of the godheads/unities of God knows about this - so how can the three unities be in cooperation and same in essence as stated in creed of the Christian faith? I cannot make logic out of this one.

ws

Hadji · 09-24-2007, 12:38 PM

Interesting stuff Wael. I think I've learned something new today. I'm still somewhat doubtful...

Is it the same 40:15?? How about 38:72??

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