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wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 09-05-2007, 07:57 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

Before I dwell into the subject, I would like to apologize in advance if this article might hurt any Christian friend, this is my observation of the Christian Bible, and so you may take it and come to Islam in which you will find peace and comfort insh a Allah, or you may ignore it and be our friends as you are now. But for those who could easily get emotional when talking about religions, then you may not read it at all to avoid any tension.

The topic is about the only prophecy that was given to the Jews by Jesus pbuh himself to prove that he was the Messiah, I am not talking about the one thousands+ prophecies of the Old Testaments that Christians are always talking about, I am only examining the only claim that was made by Jesus pbuh himself to prove to the Jews that he was the appointed Christ pbuh, but let us see if that prophecy was fulfilled or not.

We are told in the Gospel of Mathew, that some learned Jewish people approached Jesus pbuh asking him "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
 Matthew 12:38 and then he answered them very strongly saying: "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
 Matthew 12:39-40

Please note that the ONLY SIGN he gave to the Jews was the sign of the prophet Jonah, he didn't mention about any other miracle that he performed in front of their very eyes, NO SIGN BUT ONE, and that is the sign of Jonah, he is actually claiming to be the Messiah, and the only sign that would prove him right and true, is the sign of Jonah.

Now there are two questions to be asked:

1- Did Jesus really fulfill that prophecy? 

2- What was exactly that sign of Jonah pbuh that Jesus pbuh is talking about?

To answer the first question, we have to know exactly what was that sign or miracle of prophet Jonah, and to get the correct answer you have to open the Bible and read the book of Jonah ( the book of Jonah in the Bible is only one page)… after reading, we can summarize the story of Jonah as follows:

1- God told Jonah to go to Nineveh and warn their people to repent from their evil ways.

2- Jonah, instead of going to Nineveh he goes to Joppa, and took a boat to escape from God's command.

3- When he was in his boat, the boat was affected by terrible storm, and back then, they believed that anyone who runs away from his master's command, causes turbulence at the sea.

4- They started to cast lots to see who was responsible for causing this evil upon them, so the lot fell on Jonah.

5- After that, Jonah voluntarily, asked them to throw him in the sea because he was the person that disobeyed God's command, and so they throw him into the sea.

6- A huge whale in the middle of the ocean came and swallows Jonah.

7- For three days and three nights, Jonah was in the belly of the whale praying to God to remove his difficulty.

8- After three days and three nights, the whale vomits Jonah on the seashore.

Now please pay attention and try to answer those questions by yourself. 

- When Jonah was thrown from the boat into the sea, was he dead or alive?

Answer: -----------

- when the fish swallow Jonah, was he dead or alive?

Answer: -----------

- When he was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights praying, was he dead or alive? 

Answer: ------------

- When the whale vomits him on the seashore, was he dead or alive?

Answer: -------------

If you answer to the above questions was ALIVE, then you have certainly understood the miracle/sign of the prophet Jonah that Jesus pbuh was talking about.

Now, if Jonah was alive in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, then according to Jesus, he must have been alive too in his tomb for three days and three nights, otherwise, why he had to say FOR AS JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS, SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS. But when you ask Christians, was Jesus dead or alive in his tomb, you will find 100% of them saying that he was dead. Jesus plainly saying that what happened to Jonah is going to happen to me, but Christians promote the exact opposite of what their master have said about himself.

But to solve this problem, some Christians have come up with another explanation, saying that Jesus actually was talking about the time period of staying in the tomb, and NOT about being dead or alive. I am asking now, what is so miraculous about timing? The miracle of Jonah actually is considered to be the mightiest miracle of the Bible, a person who had to die 3 times over, was found at the end alive (when he was thrown into the sea), alive (when he was eaten by the whale) alive (for three days and three nights in the belly of the whale), AND alive (when the whale vomits him after three days and three nights) . but Christians said Jesus was dead, dead, dead.

But anyway, let us examine further, whether Jesus pbuh fulfill the prophecy of timing as explained by some Chrsitians.

Ask any Christian, when was Jesus crucified, and almost all of them will say ON FRIDAY (and that's why they call it good Friday). According to Christians, he was killed on Friday, but before killing him, they torture him badly, they made him carry the huge cross and walk from Pilate to Herod, and then back to Pilate, so by the time they hang him on the cross it was little late, but they also wanted to bring him down quickly on the same day (Friday) and before sunset because of the Sabbath, because they were warned in the OT that the victim of crucifixion is not permitted to remain on the cross on the Sabbath day (Deuteronomy 21:23). After that, late on Friday, the disciples of Jesus took his body down from the Cross, gave him the burial bath and send him to his tomb before night fall.

So the first time Jesus entered his tomb was FRIDAY NIGHT.

Now please count with me how many days and night did Jesus stay in his tomb and figure out by yourself whether he fulfill his own prophecy or not

(FOR AS JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS, SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH
)

FRIDAY NIGHT he entered his grave (ONE NIGHT
)

SATARDAY DAY he is still in his grave (ONE DAY
)

SATARDAY NIGHT he is still in his grave (ANOTHER NIGHT
)

SUNDAY MORNING, the first day of the week and before sunrise, (Mary Magdalene went to his tomb but found it EMPTY
)

Now I am asking, how many days and how many nights did he stay in the tomb?

-------------------------------------------------

RIGHT… they are only TWO NIGHTS and A DAY. but what the prophecy says? THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS.

Now I am asking another simple question, are 3 and 3 is same as 2 and 1? Of course there is something wrong here and every Christian should re arrange his thoughts and figure out what went wrong with their scriptures.

It is either Jesus was lying or fooling the Jews by the words he uttered (we Muslims don't believe that he is a lair), or that the books that you are reading have got serious problem.

We ask Allah, the Almighty God to accept our good deeds and intentions for writing this article, and forgive us if any of what we have said was wrong. Ameen.

Salam

Wael.

AlShamms · 09-06-2007, 03:20 AM

Peace.....

Wel, There's much I could say about your theory and how it goes totally against what the Bible teaches about the death and resurrection of Christ. The fact that we aren't disputing if Christ was crucified or not is a good foundation on which to build. What I will focus on however is the understanding of the phrase "three days and three nights". In order to understand the phrase, one must understand Jewish idiom. An Idiom, as explained in the American Heritage Dictionary is:

1. A speech form or an expression of a given language that is peculiar to itself grammatically or cannot be understood from the individual meanings of its elements, as in keep tabs on.

2. The specific grammatical, syntactic, and structural character of a given language.

3. Regional speech or dialect.

a. A specialized vocabulary used by a group of people; jargon: legal idiom.

b. A style or manner of expression peculiar to a given people

An example of an American idiom would be: "I'll be glad when hump day is over". "Hump Day" here being Wednesday as the middle of the work week...which as I think about it is another idiom. Everyone knows a week is seven days, regardless of when one begins counting the week. However the "work week" is five days or from Monday to Friday. We do not discount Monday and begin counting Tuesday as the first day. The same is true about the statement Christ made. The Jews of that time understood his words because to the Jews, a half was a whole. Jonah was swallowed by the fish during the day time and was vomited out during the day time (Jonah 1:17—2:10). In order for that to be three days, only two nights could have been involved. Yet it is called three days and three nights. Similarly, in Esther 4:16—5:1, there is a fast for ‘three days and three nights’ that begins on the first day and ends on the third day, which means only two nights were involved. So we must conclude that this is an idiom. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are three days....not three 24 hour periods.

Christ used this same idiom again in John 2:18-21:

John 2:18-21

(18) Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign showest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

(20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

(21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

And also in Luke 13:32,33:

Luke 13:32-33

(32) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

(33) Nevertheless I must walk today, and tomorrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

It is through the confirmation of these verses, and the very point that Christ was indeed crucified and resurrected that we can say with all certainty that Christ was speaking about his death at the hands of the Jews in Matthew 12:39&40. At his trial his words were used against him (see Matthew 26:61 & Mark 14:58).

Wel, the actions of the disciples of that time show and prove that Christ did indeed die. You stated the disciples wanted to bring the body of Christ down quickly because Sabbath was approaching and that they were taught it was not lawful to allow a dead body to hang during the Sabbath....you then quote the chapter and verse that teaches this. You then say that they prepared the body for burial....none of this would have been done had they believed their master still lived.

Shamms

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 01-23-2009, 03:35 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum

Thanks Shamms for your reply.

I don't know why I feel that you are not smiling while replying my posts :D , please take it easy.

Quote:The fact that we aren't disputing if Christ was crucified or not is a good foundation on which to build.

as far as Islam is concerned, its position about this topic is crystal clear, he was NOT CRUCIFIED.

Quote:The Jews of that time understood his words because to the Jews, a half was a whole.

So you mean to say that the Jews at that time used to count 24 hours day as only part of the day, am I right? so Jesus entered the grave on Friday night, it is counted as one day, then he stayed the whole day of Saturday, and so it was also counted as another day, then the tomb was empty on Sunday morning, and yet it was also counted as a whole day? For the sake of discussion, I would agree, but how about the THREE NIGHTS? How they were calculated? Please remember that on Sunday, Jesus was not found to be in his tomb early morning, so there was no night at all on that day to be counted!!!

Plus, some other Christians explained clearly, that The Part-of-a-Day Theory Is Wrong.

(their explanation, supported by biblical definitions of the word "day" as it was explained by God and Jesus)

Please visit their website to get more details, they believe that Jesus indeed fulfilled that prophecy, but he was not crucified on Good Friday and was not raised on Sunday. Whom to believe? God knows best.

No 2. What is so miraculous for Jesus to stay in the grave for this period of time? for me the miracle is, that after all what Jesus have suffered before and during the alleged crucifixion, we expect him to die, if he died, then there is no miracle here, but if he didn’t, then that is the miracle/sign that he was talking about, because Jonah after he was thrown into the sea, eaten by a whale, remained for three days and three nights in the belly of that whale, we expect him to die, but he didn’t, and that is a miracle indeed, and what did Jesus say? For as Jonah was, so shall the son of man be. (The Arabic translation of this verse is even clearer, it uses the word HAKAZA, which means JUST LIKE THAT, what happened to Jonah is going to happen to me, HAKAZA, just like that)

Quote:Wel, the actions of the disciples of that time show and prove that Christ did indeed die. You stated the disciples wanted to bring the body of Christ down quickly because Sabbath was approaching and that they were taught it was not lawful to allow a dead body to hang during the Sabbath....you then quote the chapter and verse that teaches this. You then say that they prepared the body for burial....none of this would have been done had they believed their master still lived.

No, they didn't believe that he was alive, they thought that he died, but when he visited them in the upper room, he proved more than 15 times that he was alive and never experience death, but let us first solve the problem of Jonah before talking about whether Jesus really crucified and died or not.

Salam

Wael.

Hadji · 09-06-2007, 09:32 PM

Alsalam alaykum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh...

The issue of what really happened to Christ has always really puzzled me. AlShamms, I get your point about the three days not being twenty-four hours. Your argument is logical in my opinion, but I don't feel that you have addressed Wael's main point: Christ was dead for three days, while Johan was alive for three days.

Rising from the dead is a miracle, I will agree with you there. Being dead for three days isn't a miracle though. Jonah was alive for that long. I'm afraid that the miracles aren't really similar at all.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 09-07-2007, 04:11 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum Hadji.

Long time no see brother, trust all well insh a Allah.

I just wanted to add one comment on part of what you have said:

Quote:AlShamms, I get your point about the three days not being twenty-four hours. Your argument is logical in my opinion,

Brother, I can see no logic at all in this point, let us analyze together insh a Allah.

If the Jews considered part of the day to be a whole day, then its fine, so let us count the time period in which Jesus stayed in his tomb according to that theory, we will try to stretch the days and nights as much as we can, and see whether Jesus really fulfill that prophecy or not.

FRIDAY: he entered the grave IN THE NIGHT , or AFTER SUNSET ( we may say THAT IS ONE DAY AND ONE NIGHT
)

SATURDAY: he is still in his grave the WHOLE DAY AND NIGHT (THAT IS ONE DAY AND ONE NIGHT
)

SUNDAY: MORNING
, he is not in his grave at all (WE MAY SAY THAT THIS IS ONE DAY)

So please count with me the total days and nights?

That's right, it comes up to THREE DAYS AND TWO NIGHTS, but Jesus said, THREE AND THREE
. So there is no way that anybody could help us to count the exact period of days and nights as mentioned by Jesus.

Plus, I was pointing out the importance of the ONLY miracle that Jesus gave to the Jews to prove that he was the Messiah, even if Jesus stayed in his grave for 3 days and 3 nights, what is so great about that? But as far as logic is concerned, we may say, that if a person had to die after all that torture and nailing to the cross but yet he didn't die, that is the miracle, Jesus was not talking about the time period which is not miracle at all in my opinion.

No. 1- If the Christians will insist that Jesus died for three days and three nights, then we can strongly say that he didn't fulfill the prophecy of Jonah who was alive for three days and three nights in the belly of the whale.

No. 2- If they will insist that Jesus was referring to the time factor, well, we have already proved that even the "time factor/ SIGN/MIRACLE" was not really fulfilled.

Am i making any sense insh a Allah? :)

Salam

Wael

Hadji · 09-07-2007, 04:37 AM

Quote:That's right, it comes up to THREE DAYS AND TWO NIGHTS, but Jesus said, THREE AND THREE. So there is no way that anybody could help us to count the exact period of days and nights as mentioned by Jesus.

Oops...

I haven't noticed the "three nights" part. It also sounds too specific to be an idiom.

I've learned something new today. Thanks. =)

***Muslimah*** · 09-07-2007, 07:58 PM

Bismillah

as salam alykom

O welcome back Hadji, alright, let me see if I understood correctly the point here, mind you I m not knowlegable in the bible. I m just trying to use my mind.

So the whole point here and the prophecy= miracle is Eassa salla Allah a`lyhee wa sallam (prayer and peace be upon him) making an anology of his situation with that of Johan??? is this the point?? forelling that he will remain the belly of earth just as Johan stayed in the belly of the whale?

AlShamms · 09-07-2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:So you mean to say that the Jews at that time used to count 24 hours day as only part of the day, am I right? so Jesus entered the grave on Friday night, it is counted as one day, then he stayed the whole day of Saturday, and so it was also counted as another day, then the tomb was empty on Sunday morning, and yet it was also counted as a whole day? For the sake of discussion, I would agree, but how about the THREE NIGHTS? How they were calculated? Please remember that on Sunday, Jesus was not found to be in his tomb early morning, so there was no night at all on that day to be counted!!!

Quote:No 2. What is so miraculous for Jesus to stay in the grave for this period of time? for me the miracle is, that after all what Jesus have suffered before and during the alleged crucifixion, we expect him to die, if he died, then there is no miracle here, but if he didn’t, then that is the miracle/sign that he was talking about, because Jonah after he was thrown into the sea, eaten by a whale, remained for three days and three nights in the belly of that whale, we expect him to die, but he didn’t, and that is a miracle indeed, and what did Jesus say? For as Jonah was, so shall the son of man be. (The Arabic translation of this verse is even clearer, it uses the word HAKAZA, which means JUST LIKE THAT, what happened to Jonah is going to happen to me, HAKAZA, just like that)

No, they didn't believe that he was alive, they thought that he died, but when he visited them in the upper room, he proved more than 15 times that he was alive and never experience death, but let us first solve the problem of Jonah before talking about whether Jesus really crucified and died or not.

Salam

Wael.

Quote:Alsalam alaykum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh...

The issue of what really happened to Christ has always really puzzled me. AlShamms, I get your point about the three days not being twenty-four hours. Your argument is logical in my opinion, but I don't feel that you have addressed Wael's main point: Christ was dead for three days, while Johan was alive for three days.

Rising from the dead is a miracle, I will agree with you there. Being dead for three days isn't a miracle though. Jonah was alive for that long. I'm afraid that the miracles aren't really similar at all.

Peace....

I will answer both your questions and comments in the same post.

In order to understand how Jonah's ordeal links him to Christ we have to look at his situation the way he saw it. Being in the belly of the fish was to Jonah being dead as evidenced in Jonah 2:2:

(Jonah 2:2) And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.

"Sheol" is the Hebrew word for the grave. Brown, Drivers Briggs' Hebrew Lexicon defines "sheol" as:

1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

1a) the underworld

1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead

1b1) place of no return

1b2) without praise of God

1b3) wicked sent there for punishment

1b4) righteous not abandoned to it

1b5) of the place of exile (figuratively)

1b6) of extreme degradation in sin

Because Jonah viewed himself as being dead, his being thrown from the belly of the fish can be viewed as a resurrection as evidenced in verse six:

(Jonah 2:6) I went down to the bases of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever. But You brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my God.

Pit in this verse is the Hebrew word "shachath" and means:

1) pit, destruction, grave

1a) pit (for catching lions)

1b) pit (of Hell)

Here is where we enter the realm of faith and see that Jonah's trial is a foretelling of what Jesus Christ would suffer as he said he would. Hopefully this clears up how the co-relation is drawn between Jonah and Jesus Christ.

Shamms

AlShamms · 09-07-2007, 09:42 PM

Peace.....

Muslimah, in a word, yes. Christ was saying that what happened to Jonah wasn't just about that prophet. That it was also a foretelling of what would happen to him as well.

Wel, to follow your logic, it would mean Christ would have risen at the beginning of the fourth day if you take the "three days and three nights" literally. Since to the Jew of that time, a half was a whole. Christ rising on the third day encompasses the night that follows it as well. Sure, you today in this time might not understand that, but the people of that time did.

Shamms

Hadji · 09-08-2007, 03:35 AM

Eh... The "sheol" argument is pretty new to me. I don't really find it as strong as Wael's original point. I mean, sure, maybe Jonah felt that he was in a desperate situation, or even perhaps saw himself as dead. Yet, regardless, Jonah wasn't dead. Plus, we can only start to examine all this only if we were certain that "shoel" is meant as grave and not "hell", "pit", or "place of no return".

I don't see a strong connection between:

1- The death of Christ

2- The desperate situation of Jonah that FELT like death.

As Wael has said in his earlier post, Jesus was putting all his eggs in one basket. If that was indeed the case, he'd be really specific with the miracle that was to be performed.

Heck, if we were to look so figuratively into everything then we could interpret any single one of the miracles of Christ as similar to Jonah. I could be wrong, but I believe that Christ was very specific with his words. I've heard Catholics argue that eating the flesh and drinking the blood should be taken literally since Christ was so specific...

*shrugs*

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