Ask a Shia

[Karbala]

Does the Shia foundation rely on hadith? No. Hadith is only a tool secondary to the Quran which is a perfect book. Hadith to me is just like a recording of history which should be subject to historical criticism. I do not reject hadith based on a whim. There are criteria to follow when judging a hadith as with any piece of history.


1. Agreement with Quran.


2. Agreement with reason.


3. Agreement with other reports.


4. Author bias.


Hence I do not pick and choose based on my orientation. Name me a hadith which I have rejected for no reason whatsoever. If I have then it is my mistake and I seek God's forgiveness for that. All you have to do is point it out to me.


I would like to ask you muslimah what are your thoughts on hadith. Do you take the Saheeh books as infallible like the Quran? Or do you think there might be mistakes in them. If there are how do you judge between one hadith and another.

when I asked u how u all as shia perceive those who are Shareef, or Sada? seems u do put much weight on them as iindividuals.

Muslimah I have never said that. Saadat have absolutely no superiority in Shia islam. Where have I put any weight on them as individuals? Superiority is only through Taqwa syed or non-syed. I only mention Diaa al-Musawi was Syed to reject the earlier claim that he was part of a Persian conspiracy. Read carefully.

Sobhan Allah, there is much contradiciton that u are unable to see karbala or shall I say u tend to ignore the point when raised.

You are right. I am only a human being. I make mistakes and I sometimes contradict myself and ignore points. Inshallah maybe you can help point out where I have contradicted myself or ignored a point.

[Karbala]

hadji:


Not everything narrated by Abu Hurairah is seen as junk otherwise large portions of Saheeh Bukhari and Saheeh Muslim would have to be ignored. Abu Hurairah just like any other man has historical bias which must be taken into account. In the hadiths I quoted you this historical bias does not apply and hence no need to reject the hadith.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


As u may see I split those posts and merged them here to continue being on track.


Does the Shia foundation rely on hadith


Karbala, if u brows up this thread, u will understand what I mean. To start with the whole issue of being a shia is based on the hadeeth narrated that the Messenger refered to Ali and his shia. Of course I m aware of the term shia being used several times in Quran, but never was it to refer to being shia of Ali by name but rather Ibraheem....etc.


This was my aim, as u probably understood it. Where is the Quran foundation that supports this now?? this is only a hadeeth, I mean u r called a shia because of this hadeeth.

[Karbala]

Salam,


Muslimah:


Shia is just a name which has become popular amongst a group of people. As i said i personally like to refer to myself as "muslim" who happens to follow the way of the Prophet (saw) through his AhlulBayt. Similarly a "sunni" is just a name for a group of people who also claim to follow the way of AhlulBayt. There is nothing wrong with these names even though they are not found in the Quran.


When I say Shia foundation relies on the Quran I meant the core beliefs e.g. Imamah, 'Isma, Tawassul/Shafa'a etc. Hadith is important in explaining these things but that only comes secondary to the Quran. The Quran is the primary judge/ reference. Any dispute or disagreement must first be referred to the Quran and only after the Quran can anything be obtained from Hadith. The hadith is a tool to understand the Quran and not the other way round. There are other tools in understanding the Quran e.g. Aql, empirical science etc. But the ultimate source is the Quran no doubt.


Hence I do not pick and choose Hadith as I desire. I follow rules for verifying information in the light of the Quran. The Quran will always take primary importance in judging any hadith.


I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

[Hadji]

When I say Shia foundation relies on the Quran I meant the core beliefs e.g. Imamah, 'Isma, Tawassul/Shafa'a etc.

Do you really believe that to be the case with Imamah? Have you read the arguments made against the verses that supposedly make Imamah a core of the faith?

[Karbala]

I believe that to be the case especially with Imamah. I have read some rebuttals and have remained unconvinced. Maybe you will be kind to present those arguments here for us all.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.


Just wanted to share with you my thoughts concerning the authenticity of Hadiths, this is a very deep subject in which non of us has spent enough time to study, but I know for sure that the Muslims invented a scientific methodology based on precise rules for gathering data and verifying them, and by virtue of such sciences, you can examine and verify every report in the sources.


We must also ask ourselves, why do we call the collection of Bukhari or Muslim Hadiths as <b>SAHIH</b> if they are not authentic? We must also ask ourselves why Al Bukhari who spent a lifetime in collecting information about the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, and out of 60,000 (<i>and some say 600,000</i>) traditions that he gathered, he included only those that he deemed completely reliable in his Sahih? This means that he gathered the very authentic sayings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh <b>after very carful examination following very strict methods so that no one come after him and doubt his research and study.</b>


Now if there is anyone who claims that some Hadiths are contradicting the Qur'an, then we have to start a new thread in which we may discuss and clarify such claim.


I hope that make sense insh a Allah.


Salam


Wael.

[Karbala]

Interesting discussion if you want to discuss it.


The methods Bukhari or Muslim used are similar to the criteria used by todays historians. However just like secular history that doesnt make them free from error and biase.


But here is a point to ponder. Hakim Nishapuri claims to use the same methodology as Bukhari and Muslim in his Mustadrak Ala Sahihain yet his work is not included in the 6 Sihah Sittah books.


Inshallah if you want ot discuss this then you can start a new thread as you wish.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah

Salam,


When I say Shia foundation relies on the Quran I meant the core beliefs e.g. Imamah, 'Isma, Tawassul/Shafa'a etc. Hadith is important in explaining these things but that only comes secondary to the Quran. The Quran is the primary judge/ reference. Any dispute or disagreement must first be referred to the Quran and only after the Quran can anything be obtained from Hadith. The hadith is a tool to understand the Quran and not the other way round. There are other tools in understanding the Quran e.g. Aql, empirical science etc. But the ultimate source is the Quran no doubt.

as salam alykom Karbala


In order to allow myself more understanding, I need to make a comment and a question that might sound stupid, but I think that stupid questions are the most that should be asked.


First I thought that the core of Islam as faith is included herein:


Alif-Lâm-Mîm. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur’ân and none but Allâh (Alone) knows their meanings.]


2. This is the Book (the Qur’ân), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn [the pious believers of Islamic Monotheism who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].


3. Who believe in the Ghaib [1] and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât),[2] and spend out of what We have provided for them [i.e. give Zakât [3], spend on themselves, their parents, their children, their wives, etc., and also give charity to the poor and also in Allâh’s Cause - Jihâd].


4. And who believe in (the Qur’ân and the Sunnah )[4] which has been sent down (revealed) to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) and in that which was sent down before you [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.] and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter. (Resurrection, recompense of their good and bad deeds, Paradise and Hell).


5. They are on (true) guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful.


Baqarah 1-5


Ghayb is #1 since it starts with believing in Allah Who Is Ghayb..


The stupid question comes.


How do u perceive one who does not believe the same way u believe in what u stated as core of beliefs?

[Karbala]

Salam,


Good Question Muslimah. I was just listing some of the core beliefs of the Shia. There are others as well most of which are common with Sunnis.


<b>[2:1] Alif Lam Mim.</b>


[2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).


[2:3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.


[2:4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.


[2:5] These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.


Beliefs mentioned in this verse are belief in Ghaib (Allah), belief in revelation (Quran) and previous revelation (Injeel, Zabuur, Torah etc), Belief in Hereafter. These are all core beliefs obviously. Also the core actions of charity and prayer are mentioned.


There are also other core beliefs and practices mentioned in the Quran. e.g. read 2:177 in which Belief in Angels and Prophets is mentioned.

How do u perceive one who does not believe the same way u believe in what u stated as core of beliefs?

Anyone who affirms the Quran and Mohammad(saw) and has recited the Shahada, they are muslims and I have no right to question their sincerity. I do not judge people any further then that unless they are openly and obviously in error. I maintain that the creed of Islam according to the school of Shia Ithna Ashari is the correct one.