Ask a Shia

[Karbala]

Salamun Alaikum,


Hadji:


Yes that is an interesting quote you have brought. That was the third doubt in Chapter 9 in which he says that there definitely exists some authentic traditions from AhlulBayt mentioning Tahrif in th Quran. Now if you were to stop reading here the natural conclusion you will come to is that Shias believe the Quran is altered in its text. But if you read on you will discover what he really meant.


Chapter 10 points out specific traditions. Chapter 11 then discusses the true meaning of the word tahrif as mentioned in the traditions.

It is abundantly clear from the last report quoted above that the word Tahrif (displacing the words of Allah from their rightful places) denotes the variations brought about by the qaris who most of the time based their mode of recitations on their own opinions. We have made it plain from the very outset that such a tampering has definitely occurred, where a particular Qari has read a particular word differently though without effecting any change in the original text or its essence. Whether we subscribe to the so called, seven modes of recitations or not, there is no doubt that such a tampering took place. In fact, there are many renderings, each based on the reader's guess and conjecture, which have changed the pronunciations and the recitations. In any case, this report does not support the view of Tahrif as the alteration, addition, omission or interpolation in the Qur'an.


The remaining traditions clearly point out that the word Tahrif used in them mean the misinterpretation of the verses. One of the results was that the excellence of Ahl ul-Bayt (‘a) was denied, and hostility towards them encouraged. This is further supported by the sermon of Imam Husayn (‘a) quoted above when those who were gathered to kill him are described as perpetrators of Tahrif.

Hence Tahrif was in Recitation style and interpretation not in the text itself. Al-Khoei makes it abundantly clear what is his position on alterations in the text of the quran in his final conclusion:

It is clear from what we have mentioned above that the question of interpolation or profanity occurring in the Qur'an is baseless, advocated by those who have poor judgement, or those who refuse to ponder, or those who are infatuated with the task of disproving the Qur'an ‑ and indeed, infatuation makes a person blind and deaf. A person with intellect and sense of justice can have no doubt about groundlessness of this presumption.

[Hadji]

This is further supported by the sermon of Imam Husayn (‘a) quoted above when those who were gathered to kill him are described as perpetrators of Tahrif.

By the way, who describes them as perpetrators of Tahrif?

Of course, the <b>abundance</b> of certain reports from Masumin

So, <b>all those reports</b> that come from the Masumin that say that the Qur'an has been fabricated are only about misinterpretations?

[Karbala]

Salam,

By the way, who describes them as perpetrators of Tahrif?

I think the author was referring to the tradition he had quoted earlier in which Imam Husayn describes his killers as perpatrators of Tahrif.

Reported by Ibn Shahr Ashub with his chain of reporters from Abdullah who quoted the sermon of Imam Husayn (‘a) on the day of Ashura. In it, it is mentioned:
"Surely, you are the despots of the Ummah, a strange lot, insubordinate to the Book, inspired by Satan, league of sinners and corrupters of the Book".

So, all those reports that come from the Masumin that say that the Qur'an has been fabricated are only about misinterpretations?

Correct. Tahrif in the authentic reports from Ma'sumin is either tahrif in recitation or tahrif in interpretation.

[Hadji]

“No one can claim that he has a complete Qur’an with him, its exterior and its interior, except the successors of the Prophet (‘s) (i.e. al‑awsiya).”[26]
"I heard Abu‑Ja'far (‘a) (i.e. Imam Mohammad Baqir (‘a), say that whoever claims to have collected the total Qur’an as it was revealed is indeed a liar. None has collected and preserved it in the way it was revealed by Allah except Ali b. Abi Talib (‘a) and the Imams (‘a) after him".[27]

So these two narrations are talking about what kind of tahreef exactly?

[Karbala]

Salam,


Both those traditions seem to be referring to the codex of Imam Ali.


The first tradition is very obviously referring to interpretation hence the words "Dhahir" (exterior, obvious) and "Batin"(interior, hidden) used in the tradition.


The second tradition is referring to the arrangement and order of the Surahs of the Quran as it was revealed. It is well known the Quran we possess today is not in the order it was revealed. Rather it has been compiled in a different format which is still accepted even by Shias. The Shia are unanimous that nothing has been ommitted or added to the Quran.

[Hadji]

"I heard Abu‑Ja'far (‘a) (i.e. Imam Mohammad Baqir (‘a), say that whoever claims to have collected the<b> total Qur’an</b> as it was revealed is indeed a liar. None has collected and preserved it in the way it was revealed by Allah except Ali b. Abi Talib (‘a) and the Imams (‘a) after him".[27]

The second tradition is referring to the arrangement and order of the Surahs of the Quran as it was revealed. It is well known the Quran we possess today is not in the order it was revealed.

The words total Qur'an gives me the impression that something is missing though. I mean, if the Qur'an was arranged in a different order, it could still be seen as a "total Qur'an."


I'm curious, did the Imams have the "Codex of Ali (raa)"? Does it still exist today? Can you prove that this hadeeth is talking about the arrangement of the Qur'an?

[Hadji]

Karbala, you keep using Sunni hadeeths to defend some of your views. You don't happen to believe in the authenticity of some of them, do you?

[Hadji]

By the way, I found a quote by Majlisi about the verses that are seen as tahreef of interpretation. According to him there is no such a thing a tahreef interpretation.


http://www.ibnalislam.com/12/1/pic/maalmjlsi.jpg


I've even asked a friend with the book about this quote. He told me that it is there.

[Karbala]

Yes I believe in the authenticity of some of them but not all of them. I subject them to scrutiny since they come from fallible sources.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


Karbala, u seem to be a thoughful person, but sometimes u really confuse me. Originally, the whole shia approach is based on a number of hadeeth like that of Shia to Ali, like that of Al kisaa..etc. Those are foundations of shia faith. Then u want to tell me that you pick and choose from what suits the orientation. How do u feel about all this, is this logical enough....


scrutiny since they come from fallible sources.


a Syed ie. a descendant of the Prophet of Mercy(saw) through his daughter AlZahra


And this is exactly what I was trying to refer to on the other thread, when I asked u how u all as shia perceive those who are Shareef, or Sada? seems u do put much weight on them as iindividuals.


Sobhan Allah, there is much contradiciton that u are unable to see karbala or shall I say u tend to ignore the point when raised.