Ask a Shia

[Karbala]

Rock I think you are right. Sarah we are all muslims. Shia is simply a name some muslims like to give themselves. It means "follower". However one thing we should all think about which some muslims tend to ignore is the position of "AhlulBayt" in Islam.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Karbala, I m not putting words on my sister's Umm Zacharaía's mouth, but in her post 51 she asked what made u change to Shia, and your reply was that you are not qualified to discuss Sunni traditions. I think what she wanted to ask and I also think that you might be having the answer, is that what in the Shia teaching was unavailable in Sunni teachings based on this u changed?? Till you get the reply, from there we continue Insh a Allah.

[Karbala]

My journey from the school of Ahl Al-Sunnah to school of AhlulBayt is a strange one and cant be necessarily pinned down to a single teaching or event.


The most important thing no doubt is the Shahada which shias and sunnis are united on. However the Shias say that after Tawhid and Nubuwwah comes Imamah which is necessary. Every nation must have a guide or a warner living amongst them so the people cannot complain to Allah that they did not have a leader to guide them. This role of Imamah is assigned to AhlulBayt.


<b> AhlulBayt:</b>


Although Sunnis no doubt love and respect AhlulBayt, Shias go further and assign to AhlulBayt the importance of being the ones responsible for the preservation of religion and the true interpreters of the Quran. I have already explained the concept of Thaqalayn according the hadith of the Prophet(saw)


Sahih Muslim


Book 031, Number 5920:


but I am leaving among you<b>two weighty things</b>: the one being the <b>Book of Allah</b> in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are to the <b>members of my family</b>. I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals...1.smt.html


Shias also describe AhlulBayt as Ma3soom or sinless according Surat Al-Ahzab:33


إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا


33:33 Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying


These beliefs are perhaps what makes me Shia rather than Sunni. I dont like to use sectarian terms because a true "Sunni" is a true "shia" and a true "Shia" is a true "sunni". We are all muslims and we must all strive to be "Momins" and even "Muttaqeen".

[Hadji]

Alsalam alaykum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh,


Wow, that was one long read. I can't believe that I even considered trying to comment on every single thing I've read this far. I'd probably have to quit university in order to have the free time for that.


Anyways, a few things have caught my attention. Karbala, I'm feeling that you are somewhat sincere in your message, and I'd feel somewhat surprised if nobody in this message boards has thought about converting to Shiasm yet. You've replied to a lot of the arguments that were made against the Shi'ite belief extremely well, and you've established that there is almost no difference between both the Shias and the Sunnis.


Yet, I'd like to remind you that your audience in this website are mainly Sunnis. Therefore, in order to open their minds up to your points of views you should instead use Sunni references.


I've noticed that you've used:


http://www.almizan.org/new/Articles.asp?...t=Articles


http://muslim-canada.org/malikischool.html


There are tons of Sunni websites about the interpretation of the Qur'an. I'm also sure that there are tons of biographies about the leaders of the four schools. For the sake of credibility, please use Sunni sources, for you've been doing a great job thus far.

<b>Karbala: </b>Every nation must have a guide or a warner living amongst them so the people cannot complain to Allah that they did not have a leader to guide them. This role of Imamah is assigned to AhlulBayt.

Interesting. I think you're one of the first Shi'ites that I've met who has said that this openly. Yet, I will ask, who is this guide and warner that is living amongst us today?

33:33 Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying

I'm sure that you are familiar with the argument that I'm going to make. Nonetheless, I think the other brothers and sisters in the forums should be aware of the Sunni argument.


Let's examine the context in Suratul Ahzaab:


30- <b>O ye wives of the Prophet!</b> Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.


31- And whosoever of you is submissive unto Allah and His messenger and doeth right, We shall give <b>her</b> reward twice over, and We have prepared for <b>her</b> a rich provision.


32-<b> O ye wives of the Prophet!</b> Ye are not like any other women. If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease aspire (to you), but utter customary speech.


33- And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, <b>O Folk of Household</b> and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.


34- And bear in mind that which is recited in your houses of the revelations of Allah and wisdom. Lo! Allah is Subtile, Aware.


Well, at least to me, it is completely obvious that Allah (swt) is including the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) as folks of his household. According to my understanding, the Shi'ites disagree with this interpretation because of their negative views towards some of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).


I think I'll stop with this for now. I eagerly await your reply.


Alsalam alaykum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatuh.

[Karbala]

:bismillah:


:wasalam:


Brother Hadji you seem quite knowledgeable and I suspect that you are already familiar witht the argument I will present. But I will present it anyways.

Yet, I will ask, who is this guide and warner that is living amongst us today?

The Shia maintain that this guide or warner who lives amongst us today must fulfill the certain conditions.


1. He is the awatied Savior Mahdi who will appear and fill the earth with peace and righteousness.


2. He is the twelfth successor in a line of Caliphs.


3. He is from Quraish, from the AhlulBayt through the lineage of Fatima.


4. he bears the same name as the Prophet.


Sahih Muslim


Book 020, Number 4477:


It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I joined the company of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) with my father and I heard him say: <b>This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them.</b> The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: <b>All of them will be from the Quraish.</b>


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#020.4477


Sahih Muslim


Book 041, Number 6961:


He (Jabir b. Abdullah) kept quiet for a while and then reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said <b>There would be a caliph in the last (period) of my Ummah</b> who would freely give handfuls of wealth to thd people wiothout counting it. I said to Abu Nadra and Abu al-'Ala: DO you mean 'Umarb. 'Abd al-Aziz? They said: <b>No (he would be Imam Mahdi.)</b>


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#041.6961


Book 36, Number 4269:


Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud:


The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The world will not pass away before the Arabs are ruled by a <b>man of my family whose name will be the same as mine.</b>


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#036.4269


Sunan Abu Dawud


Book 36, Number 4271:


Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin:


The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: <b>The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah.</b>http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals...l#036.4271


These conditions we believe are fulfilled by the man M.O.H.A.M.M.A.D ibn al-Hasan al-Mahdi al-Hujjah who we say is in "Ghaibah" or occultation similar to the occultation of the Prophet Khidr and Yusuf (as).

[Karbala]

Well, at least to me, it is completely obvious that Allah (swt) is including the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) as folks of his household. According to my understanding, the Shi'ites disagree with this interpretation because of their negative views towards some of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).

Shias do not exclude the wives from AhlulBayt due to negative views. Allow me to argue how the wives are excluded based on Quran and Sunni literature.


I am not an expert in Arabic infact Rock and Muslimah are in the process of teaching me at this moment. However Inshallah I know enough to comment on a subtle but important grammatical usage of the Quran.


1. The grammatical gender changes from 33:30 to 33:33.


33:30 O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.


33:30 reads in arabic


يَا نِسَاء النَّبِيِّ مَن يَأْتِ مِنكُنَّ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ يُضَاعَفْ لَهَا الْعَذَابُ ضِعْفَيْنِ وَكَانَ ذَلِكَ عَلَى اللَّهِ يَسِيرًا


Picking up one of the pronouns مِنكُنَّ we can see that it is in the female plural. Hence the wives are exclusively being addressed here.


33:33 Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.


This reads in Arabic


إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا


Again picking up one of the pronouns عَنكُمُ the tense as suddenly switched from female plural to masculine plural.


If one was reading the verse in context in arabic they would suddenly notice the change in gender.


According to the rules of arabic grammar however it is still possible for the wives to be included in 33:33 since only one male is required in a group to become masculine plural. It is also possible however that the wives are excluded. Hence we need further investigation.


However in the verses preceding 33:33 we see the wives being warned of committing "fashiha" which can mean great sins according to According to Zamakhshari in a footnote in the commentary of Mohammad Asad http://www.islamicity.com/quransearch/show...sp?chap=33¬e=33 . Does it make sense that Allah threatens punishment for the wives of the Prophet due to "Fashiha" and then declares them Pure in 33:33?


Conclusive evidence that the wives are not included in AhlulBayt comes from Sahih Muslim


Book 031, Number 5920:


He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...im/031.smt.html


Book 031, Number 5923:


We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.

[Hadji]

I am familiar with most of these hadeeths, but I just wanted to point out there even though the number "twelve" is found in the first hadeeth it doesn't mean that they imply that the Imams are the same Imams as seen by the Shi'ites.


For example, the hadeeth doesn't mention any of the things that you've made clear in the Shi'ite definition of an Imam from the first page of the thread:

1. An Imam or Khalifah is necessary at all times as it is demanded by the Lutf (Grace) of Allah(swt)
2. The Imam must be appointed only by Allah(swt).


3. The Imam must be Ma'sum or infallible.


4. The Imam must be Afhal or superior (in terms of knowledge piety etc)

Yet, I do agree that Al-Mahdi will come, that he is from Quraish, and that his name is Mohammed.

These conditions we believe are fulfilled by the man M.O.H.A.M.M.A.D ibn al-Hasan al-Mahdi al-Hujjah who we say is in "Ghaibah" or occultation similar to the occultation of the Prophet Khidr and Yusuf (as).

A few quick question about Mohammed ibn Al-Hasan Al-Mahdi Al-Hujjah... If he is indeed the final Imam according to the Shi'ites. Then what is he doing right now that makes him so "necessary at all times?"

1. An Imam or Khalifah is <b>necessary at all times</b> as it is demanded by the Lutf (Grace) of Allah(swt)

You mentioned that he is in occultation. How can he be necessary if he is hidden from everyone?

Every nation must have a<b> guide or a warner</b> living amongst them so the people cannot complain to Allah that they did not have a leader to guide them.

How will he be able to guide and warn? Will the people that have been around at the time of the occultation of Al-Mahdi and died before he reveals himself complain to Allah (swt) about not having a leader to <b>guide</b> them?

[Hadji]

According to the rules of arabic grammar however it is still possible for the wives to be included in 33:33 since only one male is required in a group to become masculine plural. It is also possible however that the wives are excluded. Hence we need further investigation.

I agree. No objections yet.

Does it make sense that Allah threatens punishment for the wives of the Prophet due to "Fashiha" and then declares them Pure in 33:33?

Well, first of all, the verse doesn't say that the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) have committed any immoral acts. While verses 30 and 31 are establishing that the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) will get double the punishment and double the reward. Thus: <b>33:32 O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any of the [other] women...</b> Once again, the purpose of verse 30 isn't condemning the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).


Furthermore, Allah (swt) hasn't only declared the wives of the Prophet pure in verse 33 alone:


<i>24:26 Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and <b>women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity:</b> these are not affected by what people say: for them is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. </i>


After examining this verse, the only way to accept that the wives of Mohammed (pbuh) are impure is by accepting by saying that Mohammed (pbuh) was impure as well.


Anyways...

Conclusive evidence that the wives are not included in AhlulBayt comes from Sahih Muslim

Well, apparently, there are different interpretations to what a family can be. In some instances,

He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: <b>His wives are the members of his family...</b>

While in other instances,

Thereupon he said: <b>No,</b> by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period;

Opinions on whether or not a wife is considered as family differs from person to person and situation to situation. Yet, what is most important here, and I'm sure that you'll agree with me, is what Allah (swt) says about wives their positions in families.


<i>7:83 Thereupon We saved him and his <b>household except his wife</b>, who was among those that stayed behind</i>


27:57 Thereupon We saved him and his <b>household - all but his wife</b>, whom We willed to be among those that stayed behind -


Please take note that the word used for household in Arabic is "Ahl". It means family and is the same word used in 33:33.

[Karbala]

Salamun Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh.


These posts are going to get lengthy so bare with me.

Well, first of all, the verse doesn't say that the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) have committed any immoral acts.

I never claimed they did. All I meant was that it is a contradiction to lay down a punishment for a possible "fashiha" and then in the following verse claim that they are Ma3soom (infallible or purified of sins.) in 33:33.


Regarding 24:26 I think you are using the translation of Abdullah Yusufali. Compare the arabic of 33:33 and 24:26


24:26 الْخَبِيثَاتُ لِلْخَبِيثِينَ وَالْخَبِيثُونَ لِلْخَبِيثَاتِ وَالطَّيِّبَاتُ لِلطَّيِّبِينَ وَالطَّيِّبُونَ لِلطَّيِّبَاتِ


33:33 إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا


You can clerly see the expressions used are completely different. 33:33 uses the terms derived from the arabic root "THR" which literally pure. 24:26 uses derivatives of Khayith and Tayyib which actually dont mean pure but are better translated as "Bad" and "Good".


You can compare the translations of Shakir, Pickthall and Yusufali for yourself.


[shakir 24:26] Bad women .are for bad men and bad men are for bad women. Good women are for good men and good men are for good women


[Yusufali 24:26] Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.


[Pickthal 24:26] Vile women are for vile men, and vile men for vile women. Good women are for good men, and good men for good women; such are innocent of that which people say: For them is pardon and a bountiful provision.


Hence 24:26 has nothing to do with "Purification" or 33:33. Infact Shia scholars have used 24:26 to defend the honour of the Prophets wives and rebuke any accusations of Adultery. The context of this verse is clearly adultery. If we were to accept your interpretation that it means that "impure" wives are for "impure" husbands in terms of generality then we would have a hard time explaining verses 66:10 and 66:11 where "impure wives" are married to Prophets and a "Pure" wife is married to Pharoah.

[Karbala]

Opinions on whether or not a wife is considered as family differs from person to person and situation to situation. Yet, what is most important here, and I'm sure that you'll agree with me, is what Allah (swt) says about wives their positions in families.
7:83 Thereupon We saved him and his household except his wife, who was among those that stayed behind


27:57 Thereupon We saved him and his household - all but his wife, whom We willed to be among those that stayed behind -


Please take note that the word used for household in Arabic is "Ahl". It means family and is the same word used in 33:33.

I will disagree with you slightly. The word used in 33:33 is "AhlulBayt"


"AhlulBayt" are a specific group of people pointed in the Quran and simply the relationship of marriage does not include one in it. This was the same term used in the hadith and it is obvious that the Quran and Hadith are mentioning the same group of people. Hence if in the hadith says that in this instance the wives are not included in "AhlulBayt" then I think that is pretty clear.


Here is the Hadith in arabic using the word AhlulBayt very clearly. If this is indeed the same group of people as in Quran 33:33 then the wives are definitely not included.


‏ وَفِيهِ فَقُلْنَا مَنْ أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ نِسَاؤُهُ قَالَ لاَ وَايْمُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ الْمَرْأَةَ تَكُونُ مَعَ الرَّجُلِ الْعَصْرَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ ثُمَّ يُطَلِّقُهَا فَتَرْجِعُ إِلَى أَبِيهَا وَقَوْمِهَا أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ أَصْلُهُ وَعَصَبَتُهُ الَّذِينَ حُرِمُوا الصَّدَقَةَ بَعْدَهُ


I can only anticipate your next argument (im guessing it might involve 28:12 or 11:73). However I will leave it here.