HIJAB - Give your input

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to God, peace on earth, good will to all!


Sorry to barge in on you guys like this :D


Not that it counts, but here's my say...


Whether a woman is decked out in hijab or is strutting the nude beaches in nothing but tanning lotion, she deserves to be treated as a person. Like you said, Wael, <i>"nature"</i> itself attaches worth to women (& men). The simple fact that a catwalk model & a Muslimah belong to the species Homo Sapiens earns them both the right to be honoured & respected regardless of how they dress. We ought to be concerned with our own hearts & let Allah (SWT) judge the hearts of others. The minute we can see a half-naked man or woman & appreciate their bodies as belonging to the crown of Allah's (SWT) creation, rather than lust over a perceived sexual object, we know we've reached a high level of purity.


God bless.

[TheSlaveOfAllah]

[font=Arial]FHC: If any Muslims are interested in continuing this discussion, I'll elaborate on my previous point for clarification.



I meant "were" not "where"... "Where Were Adam & Eve created in original nakedness?" I'm aware that it's appropriate for a married couple to see each other in the nude, however, at what moment did Adam & Eve realize that they needed to wear clothes? Did they hijab immediately or just cover up their private parts? What about their children since they were all family members & women aren't required to hijab in the presence of immediate family???


In other words, when did hijab begin?[/font]


It should be noted that Allaah gave each Messenger his own laws and path. Allaah enjoined Tawheed (belief in the Oneness of Allaah) upon every single Prophet whom He sent, but the laws varied and some of them abrogated others. Some things that were permissible at the time of Adam (peace be upon him) were abrogated at the time of Nooh (peace be upon him). (Their children were allowed to marry each other, but now marriage between brothers and sisters is forbidden). Making prostration of salutation was permitted in the Shari'ah of Yusuf (peace be upon him) but is illegal in ours.


The laws that existed at the time of Moosa (Moses – peace be upon him) were partially abrogated at the time of ‘Eesa (Jesus – peace be upon him), as Allaah tells us (interpretation of the meaning):


“To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way”


[al-Maa’idah 5:48]


As to why these laws veriy, has its own reasons. Eg. At prophet Adam's time, he needed to populate the earth, so intermarriage was permitted.


In our times where we are faced with alot of temptations where ever we go. So we have to minimize it as much as possible, Thus Allah have commanded the women to wear the hijab, and the men to lower down their gaze. (This is just my opinion, i have no knowledge of wat Allah had in mind when he prescribed this law)


Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):


“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful”


[al-Noor 24:31]


With reagard to Prophet Adam and Eve(May peace be upon them) here is wat the Quran says:


So he(satan) misled them with deception. Then when they tasted of the tree, that which was hidden from them of their shame (private parts) became manifest to them and they began to stick together the leaves of Paradise over themselves (in order to cover their shame). Their Lord called out to them saying "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you, Verily Satan is an open enemy unto you?"



They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers." Allah said: "Get down one of you an enemy to the other (i.e. Adam, Eve, and Satan etc). On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment, for a time." He said: "therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out (resurrected)." (Chapter 7:11-25 Qur'an).


It says that "...when they tasted of the tree, that which was hidden from them of their shame (private parts) became manifest to them..." . So they must have weared some kind of clothes(again this is just my opinion).

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

You don't think that forcing people to wear a burqa/veil/nquab (or whatever) against their will is degrading, even when they tell you so ?

Hijab was not made to be forced on people, Hijab is a duty Allah, the Almighty prescribed for the Muslim woman, so the effect of forcing anybody to do or not do something is negative and unhealthy. but please note, that when a Muslim neglects to dress according to the Islamic code it is usually <b>because of lack of knowledge and weakness of Iman</b>.


shortly, nowhere in the Qur'an where we find Hijab was forced on people, we must be gentles when we advise our wives or daughters to practice the religion of Allah. even when Allah sent Moses to preach to Pharoah. He ordered him to be gentle in preaching!


The Prophet pbuh says, “make it easy and don't make it hard on people; give good news and don't turn people away."

You are either ignorant of the meaning of the word equal or are being delibarately deceptive. I suspect the latter.

It seems that you are the one who are totally ignorant of the meaning of the terms ‘equal’ and ‘identical’. Can’t you see that you and your wife were created physically different? Does this make any of you superior over the other?


Obviously, the westerners have misunderstood the term ‘equal’ and that’s why under the name of equality, the USA government has given equal responsibility to men and women to take active part in the battle field, but look what happened!! The defense department issued a report on 23 of April 1993 says: <b>that - ‘90 people were sexually assaulted in a convention, out of which 83 were women and 117 officers were charged with in disciplinary action’ </b>


The president Clinton himself had to apologize in public for this incident and said <i>‘Necessary action will be taken’ </i>


Again John, men and women in Islam are equal but not identical, and so the role of each one is different.

Can a wife take on another husband ? Can a husband take on another wife ?

You know well that a wife cannot take another husband, why cant you ask yourself a simple question, if that woman who have more than one husband give birth to a child, how will we identify the father? Which name will this child carry? Maybe for you it doesn’t matter if the father was not identified, but Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present. plus man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman, also it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry.


Salam


wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to God, peace on earth, goodwill to all!


Salam Slave,


Thanks for your reply & effort :)


Um... I don't really know what to say. I might not have understood completely.


If you ask me concupiscence has always existed (consequence of Original Sin in Christianity). I didn't live in the time of the prophets but I'm quite sure that the sexual temptations we're faced with today were exactly the same in the past.


Considering Muhammad's (PBUH) the final prophet, I take it hijab's a permanent requirement, correct?


After Adam & Eve sinned they discovered their nakedness & immediately covered their private parts ONLY. Sometimes when I see an Islamic woman in extreme hijab (berka, niqab, etc), I think to myself, "she has a vagina but she's not a vagina." & to be honest at first I thought Islam was lowering women to mere sexual objects because they'd automatically associate a woman's body with lust, sex, immodesty, etc. Then I learnt that the actual reason for hijab is to prevent lust, sex, immodesty, etc. I was really confused at this point. Moreover, after this discussion, I've concluded that whether I'm wearing shorts & a t-shirt in Australia or an abaya & veil in Saudi Arabia, I'm still the same person. & if a man's going to lust over a lady in shorts & a t-shirt then making the lady cover up will only suppress the issue not solve it. Finally, I decided that if women wish to hijab then that's fine. At the same time if women don't wish to hijab then that's cool too. Clothes or a lack of) don't define what womanhood is. As for men who find it difficult to control their sexual appetites, unhijabed women are the least of their problems!


Thanks for listening :)


God bless.

[SisterJennifer]

I dont think it is accurate to assume that hijab is a rule that came with Islam. I know Jewish law tells the woman to cover (but after marriage) and the command for covering the womans hair is given I believe in 2 Corinthians where it says the woman who refuses to do so should be shorn. It seems to me that this was something exsisting among the people of the book prior to Islam.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.


May the peace of Christ be with you!

I dont think it is accurate to assume that hijab is a rule that came with Islam. I know Jewish law tells the woman to cover (but after marriage) and the command for covering the womans hair is given I believe in 2 Corinthians where it says the woman who refuses to do so should be shorn. It seems to me that this was something exsisting among the people of the book prior to Islam.

There's no such thing as hijab in Christianity, Sis.


If you're referring to 1 Corinthians 11, St Paul states that women are required to wear a head covering only during liturgical worship. This was a matter of discipline & is not immutable (just like the food regulations in Acts). Although it's technically still recommended by the Holy See, it's in no way mandatory. It was only ever cannon law & never a dogma.


The passage also mentions hair as being a covering for women. I think you misread the part about "the woman who refuses to do so should be shorn". St Paul goes on to imply that this is disgraceful.


Also, in verse 10, the veil is a sign of authority.


The reasons for women covering up are very different in our religions. We could just wear a trendy hat or a piece of lace material on our heads & that would be acceptable.


I could go on but I think you get the point.


God bless you.

[SisterJennifer]

Actually FHC, what you are saying about trendy hats etc. differs greatly from what the nuns in Bible study had to say about the topic. I guess the point was always about modesty, not fashion, although the women will do what they want, and the interpretation she gave us regarding the verse is very different from yours. I tend to give her comments more weight than you considering she has more education. When asked by the group why woman no longer adhere to this rule, she said simply 'the religion has to reform with the times to make it easy on the people.' She even made a comment about the ladies were arriving for mass in flamboyant hats defeating the entire purpose. And Now even the nuns are going away from covering.


To me, its just another example of how Christianity goes more off the path as time advances.


So really I am not certain that there is no such thing as hijab (or more accurately <b>dress </b> <b>code</b>) in Christianity, because the jews dont deny it, as is the case with consumption of pork, since they still follow the law. So this points to me that somethng was there. And this doubled with the fact that some christian groups today still follow some form of dress code makes me think that something was revealed before the time of Jesus. Thats my observation.


Anyway, if it is so important to you to know exactly when the rules of dress began maybe you should be asking a broader range of people. If you find anything let us know.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.

There's no such thing as hijab in Christianity, Sis.

No… you may say that there is no thing as Hijab in ‘<b>my sect’ </b> of Christianity, because I’ve shown you before many Christian links that support Hijab, their interpretation is based on the Bible that you are using. So don’t talk on behalf of ‘<i>Christianity</i>' because there are millions of Christians who will definitely contradict your statement.


Salam


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to God, peace on earth, good will to all.


Assalamu alaikum!

Actually FHC, what you are saying about trendy hats etc. differs greatly from what the nuns in Bible study had to say about the topic. I guess the point was always about modesty, not fashion, although the women will do what they want, and the interpretation she gave us regarding the verse is very different from yours. I tend to give her comments more weight than you considering she has more education. When asked by the group why woman no longer adhere to this rule, she said simply 'the religion has to reform with the times to make it easy on the people.' She even made a comment about the ladies were arriving for mass in flamboyant hats defeating the entire purpose. And Now even the nuns are going away from covering.


To me, its just another example of how Christianity goes more off the path as time advances.


So really I am not certain that there is no such thing as hijab (or more accurately <b>dress </b> <b>code</b>) in Christianity, because the jews dont deny it, as is the case with consumption of pork, since they still follow the law. So this points to me that somethng was there. And this doubled with the fact that some christian groups today still follow some form of dress code makes me think that something was revealed before the time of Jesus. Thats my observation.


Anyway, if it is so important to you to know exactly when the rules of dress began maybe you should be asking a broader range of people. If you find anything let us know.

SJ,


My lecturer at Uni is a highly educated nun & she stood up in front of the class last week & declared that there's nothing wrong with homosexual relations. This clearly contradicts Catholicism. I'm not saying that the nuns who taught you are heretics, but they, like me & my lecturer, aren't infallible. If you're really seeking facts about The Faith then you're best bet is to consult the Vatican's publications (Catechism, Canon Law, Encyclicals, etc). Only our Pope (the Vicar of Christ) has the authority to bind & lose on earth. I always try to present the truth on these boards but of course you're not forced to take my words as Gospel. Here's how I see it... if it were absolutely necessary as a deposit of faith that women cover their heads, then the Church would strongly enforce this discipline. It's preferred but optional. There's a deep & spiritual meaning behind veiling. It has very little to do with modesty. My mother always wears a veil to Church - even if she's the only one there praying.


Catholicism doesn't go off the path as time advances. Catholic dogma has remained the same since day one & it always will.


As for asking a broader range of people about hijab, I'm only interested in Islam's view because that's where it originates from.

No… you may say that there is no thing as Hijab in ‘<b>my sect’ </b> of Christianity, because I’ve shown you before many Christian links that support Hijab, their interpretation is based on the Bible that you are using. So don’t talk on behalf of ‘<i>Christianity</i>' because there are millions of Christians who will definitely contradict your statement.

Wael,


I'm very careful about making the distinction between Catholicism & Protestantism. In this instance I meant what I said. There's <i>no</i> hijab in Christianity. When I say "hijab" I'm referring to Islam's definition. There's not one Christian I know that follows the criteria of hijab that you mentioned in post #25. Do some Christians wear a veil to Church? Yes! My mother does. However, please don't confuse Christian veiling with hijab. My mother doesn't (nor is she required to) wrap her head with a scarf & not show a strand of hair. Also, the reasons for head dress in our religions are completely different. Personally, I wouldn't compare Christian practice with Islam... or Judaism or any other tradition for that matter! Each one is unique.


God bless you both.

[SisterJennifer]

Thanks FHC, but no, I am not seeking facts about your faith and I did not make that post to give you a spring board to preach. Simply I was stating my observation, and letting you know that to find the answer to YOUR question you should discuss with a broader range of people. I thought that was easy enough to understand, but hopefully now it is clear for you. Take care.