A Comparison

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


TC, i see you got busy copying posts to the board and not responding here.


Do u care to reply???


What is even more important and this is to you and FHC. FHC stated on another thread that christians dont worship Jesus, then again, she openly declared saying that he is god. Ok.


What is your proof that he is god??

[Faith Hope Charity]

All for the greater glory of God.


May the peace of Christ be with you!

What is even more important and this is to you and FHC. FHC stated on another thread that christians dont worship Jesus, then again, she openly declared saying that he is god.

Muslimah, are you sure I said that Christians don't worship Jesus? That certainly doesn't sound like something I'd say :lol:


Catholic Christians do worship Jesus - He's the eternal Son of God.

What is your proof that he is god??

Are you after biblical references? Let's start here & see how we go:


Post #5 http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4146


Post #2 http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=4275&st=0


Cheers!

[Al-fateh]

so this whole thing is about whether jesus is God or not?

"What is your proof that he is god??"

I will refute this by simplest ways possible, and let the buddy who is claiming that Jesus is a God, reply back....


what is in <b>BOLD</b> is what Muslims percieve as God...


<b>There is nothing like Him</b>


you say he is a man, he is a son, he is a spirit, he is a light....


<b> There is nothing that can overwhelm Him.</b>


according to your theory, the romans killed him, tortured him and crucefied him


<b>There is no god other than Him. </b>


you say that he is, the father, the son, and the holy spirit, thus the trinity...regardless of u tell me it is still one, you have gave God three of one..which voids the fact that god is one


<b>He is the Eternal without a beginning and enduring without end. </b>


Jesus has a begninning and had an end (according to your faith) at least from his man state being born till he got killed...


<b>He will never perish or come to an end. </b>


according to you, his man state came to an end


<b>Nothing happens except what He wills. </b>


according to your belief, God wanted to be humilated, tortured, spit on, thrown stones at,.... what respectful concept of God is this? he wills such humilation? God addressed himself with the best of names in relation to his status and royalty...yet u say people killed him and made him bleed to death, like a goat after it being slaughtered.


<b>No imagination can conceive of Him and no understanding can comprehend Him.</b>


you gave him, a form, a limit, a shape, a sex, a beginning , an end, and the list goes on forever...


<b>He is different from any created being.</b>


still you give him the status of a man who needs to breath, eat , and drink


<b> He is living and never dies and is eternally active and never sleeps. </b>


according to you he died (temp) and u know what, ofcourse since he is a man, he needed sleep to rest...


is this how u see god? a weak being?


<b>He creates without His being in need to do so and provides for His creation without any effort. </b>


according to you, he created man, to go live with them, and become part of them, thus him becoming part of his creation...


<b>He has always existed together with His attributes since before creation. Bringing creation into existence did not add anything to His attributes that was not already there. As He was, together with His attributes, in pre-eternity, so He will remain throughout endless time. </b>


according to you, God can change forms and shapes... if so how is he the unique?


<b>He created creation with His knowledge. </b>


he didnt need trial and error and to experiment whether humans will disobey or not... but according to you, all his prophets FAILED, and he had to come down himself, which the sound mind cannot understand how he was still up there, but down here on earth, but not a man, but still a god, and still say he came here to be part of us, and to be like us AS IF HE DIDNT CREATE MAN with his knowledge...


thus you claim Jesus was God, and what i have given u is logical proof so far that Jesus cannot be God , cz he is the complete opposite to what i stated on how God is.... worthy of worship


i can go on forever with this, but i will stop here and show u how much respect we have for Jesus as the prophet , son of Mary





English Yusuf Ali: [3:42]


Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.





English Yusuf Ali: [3:43]


"O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."





English Yusuf Ali: [3:44]


This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger!) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).





English Yusuf Ali: [3:45]


Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;





English Yusuf Ali: [3:46]


"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."





English Yusuf Ali: [3:47]


She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: <b>When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!</b>





English Yusuf Ali: [3:48]


"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,





English Yusuf Ali: [3:49]


"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by <b>Allah's leave</b>: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, <b>by Allah's leave</b>; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;





English Yusuf Ali: [3:50]


"'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.





English Yusuf Ali: [3:51]


"'It is Allah Who is <b>my Lord and your Lord</b>; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam FHC


Alright so we conclude that u do worship jesus as being a god.


In your post #56 u said you worship God and jesus is son of god.


In your post # 60 u explained to me that he does possess divine features that u should all try and follow.


My question was not aiming at bible verses, let me make it easier to u, he revived the dead, he healed leprosy, he did this and that. He even told people about what they eat and save.


Did he create anything/one????


This is one feature no human can follow, strive to follow, commanded to do. But this is one feature absolutely restricted to the Creator. A god cannt be god unless he is the one who created the creation.


Let me go further, jesus is the second of the trinity, meaning that three persons must be together to become the full god capable of assuming divine duties. Does this mean when jesus was on the cross, the duties were instable? when he was in the grave for 3 days, duties were also incomplete?? They need each other to be one, right? Thus the duties cannt be performed except by three of them, which makes the All Capable feature not fulfilled.

[Faith Hope Charity]

All for the greater glory of God.


May the peace of Christ be with you, Muslimah!

Alright so we conclude that u do worship jesus as being a god.


In your post #56 u said you worship God and jesus is son of god.


In your post # 60 u explained to me that he does possess divine features that u should all try and follow.

Muslimah, Christians profess a belief in the Most Holy Trinity - One Divine Essence (God), Three Distinct Persons (Father Son Holy Spirit). Jesus Christ is the Son of God. In other words, He is God because He possesses the Divine Essence of God.


God's Divine attributes are infinitely perfect. We can only imitate the characteristics of God in His relation to us, i.e. love, forgiveness, compassion, wisdom, goodness, justice etc, towards one another, in a limited sense.

My question was not aiming at bible verses, let me make it easier to u, he revived the dead, he healed leprosy, he did this and that. He even told people about what they eat and save.


Did he create anything/one????


This is one feature no human can follow, strive to follow, commanded to do. But this is one feature absolutely restricted to the Creator. A god cannt be god unless he is the one who created the creation.

St John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God & the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through Him, & without Him was not anything made that was not mde."

Let me go further, jesus is the second of the trinity, meaning that three persons must be together to become the full god capable of assuming divine duties. Does this mean when jesus was on the cross, the duties were instable? when he was in the grave for 3 days, duties were also incomplete?? They need each other to be one, right? Thus the duties cannt be performed except by three of them, which makes the All Capable feature not fulfilled.

"The Trinity may be described as the internal activity of God, the activity of God within Himself, in which each Divine Person has His own particular share. All works outside God, .e. all His dealings with creatures, their creation, preservation, sanctification, etc., are common to the whole Trinity.


"APPROPRIATION" means assigning a work, name, or attribute to a Divine Person as though belonging to Him alone, whereas it belongs really to all Three Divine Persons, i.e. Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier.


When the Son of God became Man, died on the Cross & descended to the dead, His Divine nature didn't (& couldn't) separate from the Godhead.


Only Jesus' tangible/physical Body was in the grave. St Peter tells us that during the 3 days, Our Lord preached to the souls in prison (Hell of the Just/Abrahams Bosom). I think Christians have a different understanding to Muslims in regards to what happens to the souls of the deceased.


I hope what I've written makes sense.


God bless.

[Al-fateh]

i wonder why was my post ignored FHC

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God - now & forever. Amen.


All for the greater glory of God.


May the peace of Christ be with you, Al-fateh!


Sorry! I didn't mean to ignore your post. I just can't keep up with you all. You must have mastered impatience during your stay in Lebanon :lol: :D :) :P


I'll do my best in responding but if it's okay with you, I won't comment on the Quranic sayings you included.


<b>There is nothing like Him</b>



you say he is a man, he is a son, he is a spirit, he is a light....


We say there's nothing <i>like</i> God too. Jesus Christ - the Son of God & the Holy Spirit aren't <i>like</i> God, the Son & the Spirit are God.


<b> There is nothing that can overwhelm Him.</b>



according to your theory, the romans killed him, tortured him and crucefied him


Jesus Christ experienced death, torture & crucifixion in His humanity not His divinity. He freely consented. That was His mission. God plan was fulfilled in His Son, Jesus Christ.


<b>There is no god other than Him. </b>



you say that he is, the father, the son, and the holy spirit, thus the trinity...regardless of u tell me it is still one, you have gave God three of one..which voids the fact that god is one


Nature pertains to "what" & person pertains to "who". There's One God, Three Persons.


<b>He is the Eternal without a beginning and enduring without end. </b>



Jesus has a begninning and had an end (according to your faith) at least from his man state being born till he got killed...


You kind of answered this one yourself. God has no beginning or end but the Incarnation took place in the sphere of time. Jesus Christ has no end though. His human Soul separated from His human Body for 3 days while he was preaching to the dead in the Limbo of the Just, but His Divine Person remained united to both His Body & Soul. Please don't ask. It's way too complicated for a beginner.


<b>He will never perish or come to an end. </b>



according to you, his man state came to an end


Please refer to my previous comment.


<b>Nothing happens except what He wills. </b>



according to your belief, God wanted to be humilated, tortured, spit on, thrown stones at,.... what respectful concept of God is this? he wills such humilation? God addressed himself with the best of names in relation to his status and royalty...yet u say people killed him and made him bleed to death, like a goat after it being slaughtered.


Yes, God wanted all this to happen. But it's not a humiliation... it's a victory. Jesus Christ conquered evil for the whole of humanity.


<b>No imagination can conceive of Him and no understanding can comprehend Him.</b>



you gave him, a form, a limit, a shape, a sex, a beginning , an end, and the list goes on forever...


If Muslims can't conceive or understand anything about Allah then what exactly is He to you?


When the Son of God assumed a human nature He assumed everything that comes along with it except for sin.


<b>He is different from any created being.</b>



still you give him the status of a man who needs to breath, eat , and drink


Jesus is not created. He breathed, ate & drank like all humans do because it's part of human nature & that's what the Son of God assumed.


<b> He is living and never dies and is eternally active and never sleeps. </b>



according to you he died (temp) and u know what, ofcourse since he is a man, he needed sleep to rest...


Please refer to my previous point.


is this how u see god? a weak being?



Quite the opposite actually. God is all-loving & has the power to do whatever He pleases - even become a Man for the sake of His beloved.


<b>He creates without His being in need to do so and provides for His creation without any effort. </b>



according to you, he created man, to go live with them, and become part of them, thus him becoming part of his creation...


The Most Holy Trinity doesn't need us. God is a communion of Persons with an eternal exchange of love between the Father Son & Holy Spirit. God's love is so strong that He poured it fourth into His creation & made human beings to share in His everlasting love. Key word... love!!! & there's no greater love than to lay your life down for your friends :wub:


No Muslims has ever been able to answer this question for me... What was Allah (SWT) doing before creation? I ask this because I'm aware of the master/slave mentality in Islam. But common sense tells me that without slaves there's no master. Please explain it to me if you can. This will change my whole perspective on Islam.


<b>He has always existed together with His attributes since before creation. Bringing creation into existence did not add anything to His attributes that was not already there. As He was, together with His attributes, in pre-eternity, so He will remain throughout endless time. </b>



according to you, God can change forms and shapes... if so how is he the unique?


What on earth is pre-eternity? There's a term I'm unfamiliar with! How is it different from eternity?


I don't quite understand your question, sorry. If you're referring to Jesus Christ, His divine essence didn't change one bit from the time of the Incarnation & onwards.


<b>He created creation with His knowledge. </b>



he didnt need trial and error and to experiment whether humans will disobey or not... but according to you, all his prophets FAILED, and he had to come down himself, which the sound mind cannot understand how he was still up there, but down here on earth, but not a man, but still a god, and still say he came here to be part of us, and to be like us AS IF HE DIDNT CREATE MAN with his knowledge...


The failure of everyone is due to Original Sin. God doesn't experiment. He gives us free-will & we choose to accept or reject His invitation of spending eternity with Him.


God's omnipresent & omnipotent. To say that He's not ever-present is a heresy in Catholicism. It's quite possible & certain that God can be both "here" & "there".


Speaking of trial & error, another question no Muslim has been able to answer thus far is... why didn't Adam return to Paradise after Allah (SWT) forgave him & why weren't you & I born in the same state as Adam & Eve? If there's no Original Sin or Redemption in Islam then what's the reason for us taking part in Adam's punishment on earth?


Insh a Allah I provided satisfactory responses (probably not the kind you were hoping for).


Take it easy, mate & God bless.

[Al-fateh]

In the name of Allah the most merciful the most beneficient!


Peace on those who are guided to the right path!


i read what u wrote to me....its in basic contradiction with the reality of GOD, and what a god should be


by reading the statemnt that Jesus experienced death, death is a creation, and GOD cannot be part of this creation, for he is everlasting and eternal, and if he really died, that means he ended one way or the other, nor is he eternal, nor is he first, nor is he the last.


those are enough to show u that Jesus is not GOD...


what u say contradicts the sound mind.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


as salam alykom


Ok here we go again, I can see FHC that you are overwhelmed. In consideration to this, I will hold on my comments for a while. :)

[Al-fateh]

this is a small portion of what contradicts the belief and the mind...


the last can go vERY long.