The "Original" Manuscripts.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


Assalamo ALikum everyone...


In response to FHC who once said:

Re: Bible manuscripts - No disrespect to Bat Ehman but he's a former "Born-Again Christian". No disrespect to Protestants, <b>but various sects have their own version of the Bible -</b> tailored <b>to suit their personal needs</b>. The ancient Bibles I mentioned are identical (although they're not all written in the same language), & are openly displayed in the Vatican Library for all to see, touch, read, examine, photograph, etc.
One thing you must remember is that Catholics aren't "Evangelical Bible Christians"; Catholics evangelize the word of God (Bible), however, we honour Sacred Tradition & Sacred Scripture equally. "Where Peter is there is the Church, and where the Church is, there is everlasting life" (I can't remember which Saint said that - shame on me)!

So basically you are referring to <b>the Catholic version of the Bible</b> to be the accurate word of God which is identical word for word with those Ancient manuscripts!!! Other versions of the Bible such as the KJV, the NIV, Living Bible, NKJV, and many others are <b>NOT</b> accurate and so you do not believe that they are the pure word of God.


First of all, you have to really understand the fact that <b>the original manuscripts of the Bible do NOT exist anymore</b>, so we can't compare modern Bible versions directly to the originals, simply because <b>the manuscripts which you have in the Vatican or whatever, are not exactly what was originally written</b>… and you can go to the Vatican to check by yourself, <b>you do not have any original copies which were penned by the Bible writers anymore</b>, you simply do not, because the <b>REAL</b> manuscripts <b>were normally written on papyri or animal skins which over time, these materials would perish and no longer be readable.</b> The only reason you have some manuscripts from as far back as 250 BC is that they were found in desert areas with very low humidity. Also, during Wars the manuscripts were sometimes <b>destroyed</b> and so the earliest copies of those <i>REAL</i> ancient scriptures were missing.


What is left are <b>SOME</b> copies of the original Bible manuscripts, and these do not all match each other perfectly. <b>This fact has led many people to doubt the accuracy of the Bible's transmission and one of them, whom I always remember because he was the latest to discover this fact, is Bart Ehramn. </b>


Again, I do respect whatever you believe, but do not always <b>insist</b> (at least in front of me
:D ) that the Bible which you are reading now was 100% preserved.


Salam


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory to the Word made flesh!


Assalamu alykum everybody...


:banghead: If someone can find the word "original" in my above quote, I'll consider reverting to Islam (no editing, moderators ;)).


The Holy Bible is the property of the Catholic Church - the collection of books which formed the Holy Bible were declared canonical in the 4th century AD by the Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The first non-Catholic Bible was produced by Martin Luther (RIP) more than 1000 years after. Luther (RIP) by his own self-appointed authority removed 7 books from the O/T & 7 from the N/T (the N/T books were later readmitted at the request of one of his followers).


Protestants are free to do what they want with their versions & teachings, but as you stated in another post, the majority of Anglican ministers (the mastermind denomination behind he KJV) don't even believe what's written in the Holy Bible, therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if they modify it in years to come.


The only part of the Holy Bible that the Catholic Church would & could change is the commentary section.


The pure, revealed, living & Incarnate Word of God is Jesus Christ. The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God & because they're divinely inspired, they become the written word of God. Only the Catholic Church has the right to transmit the Word/word of God & she does so in light of Sacred Tradition which is also divinely inspired & cannot err.


"ROME HAS SPOKEN, CASE IS CLOSED" (St Augustine - 4th Century AD).


If you manage to track down one dogma pertaining to faith/morals which the Church has altered in any way, shape or form throughout Christian history, I'll reach for my veil, race to the mosque & shout the Shahadah from the tops of my lungs... :shahadah:


Thanks for respecting my beliefs. I respect yours too, bro. I'll try not to overly insist on truth in the future... so long as you quit lecturing me on Catholicism & begin educating me more on Islam. The authenticity of the Qur'an is a good place to start :)


God bless all His people & holy books of the world!

[Curious Christian]

Wel, does the original complete Quran exist?

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


Assalamo Alikum...


Don’t get emotional FHC :) … I am not asking you to revert to Islam; this is not my job, just stay calm and let us have a good discussion.

If someone can find the word "original" in my above quote, I'll consider reverting to Islam (no editing, moderators ).

And I was simply asking you about the Original manuscripts!!! <i>Where are they</i>? They do not exist, so how can anyone say that today’s Bible is the accurate word of God? just because the Catholic Church said so? other Christians said the same thing too, but their versions of the Bibles are totally different and contradicts your version!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The Holy Bible is the property of the Catholic Church - the collection of books which formed the Holy Bible were declared canonical in the 4th century AD by the Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

All other sects of Christianity say the same thing, even the (<b>RSV 1952</b>) who does not contain the 7 extra books of the RCV claim that their Bible was written by the inspiration of the <b>‘Holy Ghost’</b>… I also know that today’s’ Bible mentioned that all scriptures were given by inspiration, <b>but that does not mean in anyway that what we are holding today is the original inspired word of God. </b>

Anglican ministers (the mastermind denomination behind he KJV) don't even believe what's written in the Holy Bible, therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if they modify it in years to come.

The don't believe that many parts of today's Bible are belongs to the original writtings, they have their reasons and they have done their research.

The only part of the Holy Bible that the Catholic Church would & could change is the commentary section.

Then why don’t you go and ask your Catholic Church, why they've produced a whole Encyclopedia and in it they declared that ALL Scriptures were altered? by them or by someone else, is not our problem, the important is that the ORIGINAL writings were not put together as they were originally written.

The pure, revealed, living & Incarnate Word of God is Jesus Christ.

I am not talking about Jesus pbuh now, i am talking about <b>"the Gospel of Christ"</b> Do you have any document that carry his name ? NO... all what you got is <b>"the gospel according to so and so"</b>. this is NOT the original Gospel of Jesus Christ pbuh.

The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God & because they're divinely inspired, they become the written word of God. Only the Catholic Church has the right to transmit the Word/word of God & she does so in light of Sacred Tradition which is also divinely inspired & cannot err.

But the Church itself said that the Scriptures were altered!!! so how can you say something else?

If you manage to track down one dogma pertaining to faith/morals which the Church has altered in any way, shape or form throughout Christian history, I'll reach for my veil, race to the mosque & shout the Shahadah from the tops of my lungs...

1- I already mentioned before about this famous story of Jesus pbuh forgiving the woman who committed adultery; this story not to be found even in the existed manuscripts, it was a later addition.


2- I also pointed out before regarding Mark 16:9-20, that many Biblical scholars admits that <b>“ the most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have this verse”</b> and yet we can find it today in the modern Bibles.


Now you tell me who have the right to add to the "<b>word of God</b>"?


<b>Arent these 2 points enough for anyone to understand that the Bible of today was altered ?</b>

Thanks for respecting my beliefs. I respect yours too, bro. I'll try not to overly insist on truth in the future... so long as you quit lecturing me on Catholicism & begin educating me more on Islam.

I am not lecturing here, I am presenting a case, you may follow it or just ignore all of it. You are learning about Islam here but you also trying to educate us about your faith whenever we teach you something that is opposite to your beliefs. Anyway, I feel that this topic is very important for those who really want to know the truth about today’s Bible, if you getting emotional so please do not respond to this thread anymore.

The authenticity of the Qur'an is a good place to start

We have covered this subject before on our forums, probably it is on <b>“discussion and beliefs”</b> forum.


Salam


Wael.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Wel, does the original complete Quran exist?

I never expected you to ask this question, we have already answered you long time ago about the same question. please find the topic on this same forum, i will also make some seach and get back to you. Thanks.


Salam


Wael.

[Curious Christian]

Bismillah:


I never expected you to ask this question, we have already answered you long time ago about the same question. please find the topic on this same forum, i will also make some seach and get back to you. Thanks.


Salam


Wael.

I think I remember the answer...I only asked as I thought it odd that you critisize the bible for not being "original text" when the same is true for the Quran.


Also...did not Mohammed quote the bible at times? He must of thought it authentic.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

I think I remember the answer...I only asked as I thought it odd that you critisize the bible for not being "original text" when the same is true for the Quran.

No i think you totally forgot... here is the link to refresh your memory.


http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=3601

Also...did not Mohammed quote the bible at times? He must of thought it authentic.

Again, this same question was asked by you sometimes ago, and i remember well that we have provided the answer. please find the topic.


Salam


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God now & forever. Amen.


May the peace of Christ be with you, Wael!

Don’t get emotional FHC :) … I am not asking you to revert to Islam; this is not my job, just stay calm and let us have a good discussion.

:lol: I'm just a drama queen!

And I was simply asking you about the Original manuscripts!!! <i>Where are they</i>? They do not exist, so how can anyone say that today’s Bible is the accurate word of God? just because the Catholic Church said so?

Yes, because Holy Mother Church says so. I never disobey or question my mother. The Early Church formed the Bible (under Divine Inspiration). She's the pillar of truth. I don't believe this... I know this!!! God can't lie.

even the (<b>RSV 1952</b>) who does not contain the 7 extra books of the RCV claim that their Bible was written by the inspiration of the <b>‘Holy Ghost’</b>.[/b]

Is the RSV 1952 a Protestant Bible? I'll bet my life on it!!!


On what authority do other Christians make this claim? Protestant scholars are the first to admit that Catholic Bishops canonised the books of the Holy Bible (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) centuries & centuries before their translations appeared.

I also know that today’s’ Bible mentioned that all scriptures were given by inspiration, <b>but that does not mean in anyway that what we are holding today is the original inspired word of God. </b>

God's word can't change! The Qur'an specifically states that the Gospel was handed down by Allah (SWT) & it also states that Allah's word cannot change! Yes, Christians distort the word of God both verbally & in their actions, but once God reveals a message it lives on forever!!!

The don't believe that many parts of today's Bible are belongs to the original writtings, they have their reasons and they have done their research.

I don't recall them saying that (in those exact words). In any case, they're free to believe what they want but the fact remains the same... Jesus Christ built His Church on one Pope not a thousand. You can find a list of Popes starting from the first Pope (the Apostle, St Peter), right through to Pope Benedict. Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church... Queen Elizabeth is the head of the Anglican Church. Insh a Allah, we'll all be united once again.

Then why don’t you go and ask your Catholic Church, why they've produced a whole Encyclopedia and in it they declared that ALL Scriptures were altered? by them or by someone else, is not our problem, the important is that the ORIGINAL writings were not put together as they were originally written.

Wael, you're too much trouble! I can't believe we're back to this. Your reading/hearing is selective. I urge you to go back to that Catholic Encyclopaedia & read the whole document rather than one line which was referring to "books in general". How do you know that the ancient manuscripts don't match the original? Have you read the original?


For the millionth time, Sacred Tradition is equal to Scared Scripture in Catholicism. Until the end of the 4th Century, the Gospel spread through Tradition. Scripture was taught orally. Not one Catholic belief has changed since printers were invented. If you were to destroy every single copy of the Holy Bible, the Christian faith will still survive. I don't need to see my birth certificate to know that my parents are my true parents.

I am not talking about Jesus pbuh now, i am talking about <b>"the Gospel of Christ"</b> Do you have any document that carry his name ? NO... all what you got is <b>"the gospel according to so and so"</b>. this is NOT the original Gospel of Jesus Christ pbuh.


But the Church itself said that the Scriptures were altered!!! so how can you say something else?

Are you for real? We have writings from as early as the 1st Century AD :lol: Run a Google search on St Justin Martyr or St Cyprian or Origen or St Jerome or St Augustine, etc. You're bound to be surprised!

1- I already mentioned before about this famous story of Jesus pbuh forgiving the woman who committed adultery; this story not to be found even in the existed manuscripts, it was a later addition.


2- I also pointed out before regarding Mark 16:9-20, that many Biblical scholars admits that <b>“ the most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have this verse”</b> and yet we can find it today in the modern Bibles.


Now you tell me who have the right to add to the "<b>word of God</b>"?


<b>Arent these 2 points enough for anyone to understand that the Bible of today was altered ?</b>

:banghead:


I'm not even going to dignify your words with a response. This is pre-school all over again. Please don't insult my intelligence, Wael. I don't mind discussing this topic with you but please be mature & try not to make a mockery of the Christian faith. You've outdone me & my comment on the Satanic Verses.

I am not lecturing here, I am presenting a case, you may follow it or just ignore all of it. You are learning about Islam here but you also trying to educate us about your faith whenever we teach you something that is opposite to your beliefs. Anyway, I feel that this topic is very important for those who really want to know the truth about today’s Bible, if you getting emotional so please do not respond to this thread anymore.

It's a one way street with you, Wael :lol: If you bring up a new & valid point, I'll be happy to respond, otherwise, I'll just shrug the nonsense off.


If you'd like to know facts about Sacred Scripture, read the entire document in the Catholic Encyclopaedia &/or the Catechism. Please don't pick & choose information from unreliable sources.

We have covered this subject before on our forums, probably it is on <b>“discussion and beliefs”</b> forum.

Thanks! I'll view the link you provided for CC.


Take care & God bless.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


I remember that I told you on the other threads that if you get emotional while discussing this topic then I guess I have to drop is as I dropped 'trinity' subject.


Salam


Wael.

[Curious Christian]

And Wel...I went back and read the link you posted.


You admitted that the compiled oldest Quran text was not written by the hand of Mohammed. You said that the Quran was passed down orally etc.


OK. That is fine.


But how then, can you attack the bible for not being "original manuscripts"?


The Quran isn't immune to that attack.