Qadar

[Ruggedtouch]

Bismillah:


Somehow you are right; Satan was created for important purposes. If Satan, who continually tries to seduce us, did not exist, our creation would be meaningless and futile. God gave us free will so that we could know good from evil. In addition, He gave us great potentials. Our development of these potentials and our struggle to choose between good and evil make us experience a constant battle in our inner and outer worlds. Just as God sends hawks upon sparrows so that the latter will develop their potential to escape, He created Satan and allowed him to tempt us so that our resistance to temptation will raise us spiritually and strengthen our willpower. Just as hunger stimulates human beings and animals to further exertion and discovery of new ways to be satisfied, and fear inspires new defenses, Satan’s temptations cause us to develop our potentials and guard against sin.


It is truly beautiful when you resist Satan’s temptation and defeat him. May Allah always protect us from such temptations, Ameen.


Salam


Wael.

Please stop this madness, Wael. That’s completely unsupported conjecture. You’re waving your religious dogma around like a teenage cheerleader flailing her pom poms.


I’m not evil. No one I know is truly evil. Most of the true evil in the world has been in furtherance of political or, more often that not, religious ideologies. Currently, the greatest evil in the world is being carried out in furtherance of one specific politico-religious ideology. Go figure, eh?


The problem with all of this is that given the story, man did not commit the first sin-- Lucifer did, and thus became Satan. Everyone prefers to forget that before man was created, there had to be a conflict that allowed Lucifer to become the temptor in the test God offers to his unenlightened creations, Adam and Eve. Clearly, God has created evil, and allowed it to flourish even before Man is created. The issue of "less than perfection" has already been completely established and is extant in the universe before Man is culled from dust.


And so, when God creates Man, the result of everything is already set in place. God knows Man must fail, as he has created Satan already to allow Man to fail, and in fact decides to give Satan-- whom God knows is evil prideful rebellion incarnate-- to have power of such magnitude that it will actually become a war of good versus evil in the "last days" -- when in fact God should be able to eradicate Satan and evil and hell and damnation --with a metaphorical blink of an eye. He just doesn't do it. So much for a loving god(s).


Free will under a god paradigm is a hopeless failure unfortunately. It cannot be without reducing god in some way, and theists insist god is omniscient and perfect (how perfection creates something less than perfection-- existence-- is always unanswered as well). One cannot assert an all-knowing god and then say "but we are not robots"-- because god knows every choice we can make and every choice we will make. While there is an illusion that we are not robots, we clearly are from god's perspective. You've admitted this by noting "He is aware of whatever going to happen in the future but that doesnt mean that he is responsible for our actions.


This nicely segues to my second point: You proffer this unsupported idea that allll of this evil exists only to teach us how to be better, but then "better" can only come through god(s) and no matter how much evil is there to "perfect us" (!) we are doomed to fail miserably.


So it's useless to argue that the bad exists to make us good. Of what purpose then are there "natural evils"? How many fires wiping out cities have we needed to learn to "be good" to one another? Do we really need mudslides eradicating villages and snuffing out the lives of children just so we can rescue some of them and "be good"?


Just think, Wael, moslems killing in the name of jihad is ultimately god(s) will to make us better people. I'm down with that.

[Dan]

Bismillah


Cool. Now it is in writing in your book AND on the board.


I don't remember saying that you did not deny it... just a need to be a part of?... or just a love for miss kitty-clapper. I admit that I look for excuses to use some emotioncons

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Creator Redeeemer Sanctifier.


May the peace of Christ be with you!

Two people with the same illness treated by the same doctor, one dies, one does not. Why?


Two people are in a car accident and the car it totalled, one walks away, the other does not.


Two people go to the ER. One has a headache and the other was shot in the head. Headache dies, Gun shot lives.

Sobhan Allah, without even realizing it, you've argued my point for me, Dan.


Please think for a moment & see if you can work out for me what the difference is between the above examples & dying due to "bombs from the sky", "explosions" & "abortions".

Do we really have any say over when we die?

It depends whether or not it occurs naturally (hint hint).

To deny that life and death are ultimately up to the Creator is to deny His Absolute Power and Knowledge. I will never take back the statement that Allah is in control of all.

To a certain extent, I'd agree with you. But this is where I get confused over pre-destinaion & freewill in Islam. If Allah (SWT) decreed that Sadam Hussein (RIP) die in the manner he did, do his killers get away scot free because they were just co-operating with Allah's (SWT) will??? (sorry for using a poor example)


DO YOU FINALLY UNDERSTAND WHERE I'M COMING FROM???


This topic is bitter-sweet... interesting yet sad.


May God bless all His creation.

[Dan]

Bismillah


"Sobhan Allah, without even realizing it, you've argued my point for me, Dan."


I hope that you are just being silly... but in case you are not...


Two people are in the same World Trade Center Tower. It collapses. One lives... One dies. Did not that terrorist want everyone to die? Whose decision was it ultimately? Better?


"DO YOU FINALLY UNDERSTAND WHERE I'M COMING FROM???"


I understand. You are trying to understand how the Creator can Know everything and still allow for freewill. Okay...


How about if the Creator did not know everything (astaghfirullah), that allows for freewill? But then He is no longer All-Knowing ((astaghfirullah). You CANNOT have an All-Powerful, All-Knowing Creator not know even the smallest bit. It denies an attribute. Big Sin.


As I pointed out, you (small and unknowing... just like me!) are trying to fathom the unfathomable. Have this circle be a square too. Cannot be done. It is against logic. Do we think for one moment that an ant understands religion, poetry, art, etc... NO! It is not in their capacity. That is how they are created. Same as us. It is enough to know that He is All-Powerful and All-Knowing, just as all the ant really has to know about me is that my picnics can provide some food.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God now & forever. Amen.


Salam Dan,

"Sobhan Allah, without even realizing it, you've argued my point for me, Dan."


I hope that you are just being silly... but in case you are not...


Two people are in the same World Trade Center Tower. It collapses. One lives... One dies. Did not that terrorist want everyone to die? Whose decision was it ultimately? Better?

Dude, I was totally being serious!


Great example! We're almost there. The one who dies is dead in accordance with Allah's (SWT) plan for him. Destiny. He wouldn't have died in that circumstance had it not been for the terrorist. Freewill. THEREFORE, was the whole incident set up by Allah (SWT) or the terrorist (despite his intentions)? Who willed it?

"DO YOU FINALLY UNDERSTAND WHERE I'M COMING FROM???"


I understand. You are trying to understand how the Creator can Know everything and still allow for freewill. Okay...


How about if the Creator did not know everything (astaghfirullah), that allows for freewill? But then He is no longer All-Knowing ((astaghfirullah). You CANNOT have an All-Powerful, All-Knowing Creator not know even the smallest bit. It denies an attribute. Big Sin.

You still don't understand me, Mate! It has nothing to do with God's Omniscience & Omnipotence. I believe God's All-Knowing & All-Powerful. But I also believe that God never interferes with our free-will. We're not programmed robots. Predestination doesn't exist in Catholicism. God wills all souls to spend eternity in Heaven, but whether we make it there or not depends on our how well our will corresponds to His.

As I pointed out, you (small and unknowing... just like me!) are trying to fathom the unfathomable. Have this circle be a square too. Cannot be done. It is against logic. Do we think for one moment that an ant understands religion, poetry, art, etc... NO! It is not in their capacity. That is how they are created. Same as us. It is enough to know that He is All-Powerful and All-Knowing, just as all the ant really has to know about me is that my picnics can provide some food.

I tend to disagree. It's not against logic to know God. Human beings were created with an intellect for a reason (no pun intended).


The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God & for God; & God never ceases to draw man to Himself. Only in God will he find the truth & happiness he never stops searching for (CCC 27). Although we're limited in our human nature, we have the capacity to know who God is in His essence (Christianity), not only His will & attributes (Islam).


If a judge instructs me to stone an adulterer because Allah recommends it, I'd say "No way" because I know that's not who/what Allah is.


Rhetorical question (no need to answer)... Is adultery wrong because it's contrary to the essence of conjugal love, or because Allah says says it's wrong?


Salam Muslimah,

salam FHC so that u dont keep mixing issues up, if u r refering to martyrdom operations, there are views on that:


http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=971


This is one topic, long read it up, u may continue searching using martyrdom operations u will get more info. I found out that the same link contains another link to more info. Enjoy.

Thanks for that!


I'll check out the thread as soon as I get a chance.


But I'm not mixing up issues. The topic at hand is predestination/free-will. Dan & I used martyrdom only as an example, however, it's an interesting subject so I wouldn't mind reading up on it. Thanks again.

salam FHC so that u dont keep mixing issues up, if u r refering to martyrdom operations, there are views on that:


Insh aAllah I will have to look for the pre destination replies, bring them all under one topic (this is what u and wael do to me when u take things up in several threads), then Insh aAllah see what is missing and fill the gaps.

Haha! I take full responsibility. We should turn the forum into a chatroom.


God bless.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


FHC


I will just make a quick comment, i really want to put the pre destination related replies together for the benefit of others.


However, death is certain pre destined by Allah, time, place, means, take for example the honey moon Israeli couple who were in Indonesia during Tsaunami. They went there because they had to die there, so are those tourists who were just holidaying. Allah Willed for them to die there, some of them even were destined to have the sea as grave.


But if someone decided to blow a place for example, the blowing part is his decision, Allah Knows about it certainly before hand, like if someone decides to commit suicide, let us discuss it this way. Suicide is haram. Period, we all know that, he/she decides to commit a haram act. His death time and manner is known certainly to Allah, even pre destined, but Allah Didnt tell him to commit haram. Can u see the difference.

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - One God now & forever. Amen.


Salam Dan,



Dude, I was totally being serious!



Great example! We're almost there. The one who dies is dead in accordance with Allah's (SWT) plan for him. Destiny. He wouldn't have died in that circumstance had it not been for the terrorist. Freewill. THEREFORE, was the whole incident set up by Allah (SWT) or the terrorist (despite his intentions)? Who willed it?

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.

I will just make a quick comment, i really want to put the pre destination related replies together for the benefit of others.

Creating a new thread is a good idea! I hope you're able to locate all the posts which deal with this topic. Please let me know if you'd like help :) We've really ruined the sentiment of this thread, haven't we? I'll try to avoid a repeat of this in the future.

However, death is certain pre destined by Allah, time, place, means, take for example the honey moon Israeli couple who were in Indonesia during Tsaunami. They went there because they had to die there, so are those tourists who were just holidaying. Allah Willed for them to die there, some of them even were destined to have the sea as grave.

I know you said not to apologize, but I can't help it. I'm sooooooo sorry... I'm struggling to understand your reasoning. But I appreciate your time & effort.


If it was there destiny to die there, did they really have a choice in the matter? Could they have exercised their freewill in any way to save them? No... right? Therefore, their will isn't free!


If you ask me... predestination + freewill = a paradox.

But if someone decided to blow a place for example, the blowing part is his decision, Allah Knows about it certainly before hand, like if someone decides to commit suicide, let us discuss it this way. Suicide is haram. Period, we all know that, he/she decides to commit a haram act. His death time and manner is known certainly to Allah, even pre destined, but Allah Didnt tell him to commit haram. Can u see the difference.

We've established that God's Omniscient. Alhamdulilah, we both agree on this truth. But why would Allah predestine something that's haram? If an act is predestined by Allah then it must also be willed by Allah... not by us. True or false?

we will not allow this Insh a Allah, and I ve been asking nicely right????

Oh I was only kidding ;)


You're always nice :)


Take care & God bless.

[Dan]

Bismillah


"Predestination doesn't exist in Catholicism."


Nor Islam... it is by our own actions that we go to heaven or hell. To say that Allah does not know where we will be, limits His Knowledge. So freewill does co-exist with Allah's All-Knowing.


"Human beings were created with an intellect for a reason"


I thought one had to divorce from logic to understand the trinity. 3=1


Nowhere in the universe is this equation true. All math and science (branches of logic and reason) will only state 1=1. To say 3=1 and claim that it is logical and based on reason would be to deny everything else in the universe.


When christians say that 3=1 is a matter of faith, I can acept that as part of the belief system but to say that 3=1 is based on logic?


Speechless...

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit - Three Persons subsisting in the One Divine Nature.

"Predestination doesn't exist in Catholicism."


Nor Islam... it is by our own actions that we go to heaven or hell. To say that Allah does not know where we will be, limits His Knowledge. So freewill does co-exist with Allah's All-Knowing.

It's not that I don't believe what you're saying, it's just that I'm struggling to understand your reasoning.


You keep coming back to Allah's (SWT) Omniscience. That's neither here or there. I wholeheartedly agree with you in this respect.


But how can you turn around & say that predestination doesn't exist in Islam after all the examples you've given & especially your original comment on this thread...


<i>"The bombs don't kill unless it is Allah's Will. Everyone's time has already been written."</i>


Speechless...

"Human beings were created with an intellect for a reason"


I thought one had to divorce from logic to understand the trinity. 3=1


Nowhere in the universe is this equation true. All math and science (branches of logic and reason) will only state 1=1. To say 3=1 and claim that it is logical and based on reason would be to deny everything else in the universe.


When christians say that 3=1 is a matter of faith, I can acept that as part of the belief system but to say that 3=1 is based on logic?

Logic's never eliminated in Catholicism. The Most Holy Trinity is a mystery (because strictly speaking it cannot be proven), but It's a supernatural truth that doesn't contradict reason. If I were to say that: Three Persons = one person or One God = three gods... then I'd be contradicting myself. But that's not what we say! We profess the belief in One God (what) not three, & Three Persons (who) not one.


What are the 3 acts of the human intellect?


1. Simple Apprehension


2. Judgement


3. Reasoning


In the case of the Most Holy Trinity & Incarnation, God elevates human judgement. That's the only difference between natural & supernatural truths.


Agree to disagree?


Peace & blessings.

[Dan]

Bismillah


"Agree to disagree?"


Of course. If I believed as you do, then I would be Catholic and if you believed as I do, you would be Muslim.