Qadar

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - All Loving, All Knowing, All Present, All Powerful!

"And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; <b>will you then force men till they become believers?" </b> (Yunus: 99)

There you have it!


According to this verse, the Lord doesn't wish that we all believe. He has destined some of us to be unbelievers! May Allah's will be done!


Peace!

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

There you have it!


According to this verse, the Lord doesn't wish that we all believe. He has destined some of us to be unbelievers! May Allah's will be done!


Peace!

Hold it miss picky hehe!! :D


I think you better read the interpretation of this verse on Ibn Kathir Website


Salam


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

Glory be to the Father & to the Son & to the Holy Spirit.


Peace be with you!


Wael, you're in China? As in Communist China??? Look out, bro! Don't pray out on the street, you might get arrested (God forbid).

Ask him to show the references of those ‘numerous Ayats and Hadiths’ and we may explain them to you if you wish, ask him to provide further proofs regarding this "tiny minority of Muslims accept the notion of free will” and that the majority reject it… !!!

I don't know when I'm going to see him next. He said that Sunnis hold a strong belief in pre-destination. I know you guys don't like to differentiate between Muslims so that's why I said "minority" instead of mentioning denominations.


Anyways, I did some research on the side & managed to find some references...


The Noble Qur'an Al-Hadid 57:22



"No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves


but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees -- (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz),


before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah"


The Noble Qur'an - At-Tauba 9:51


Say: "Nothing shall ever happen to us except what Allah has ordained for us. He is our Maula (Lord, Helper and Protector)." And in Allah let the believers put their trust.


The Noble Qur'an - Al-Qamar 54:53


And everything, small and big is written (in Al-Lauh Al-Mahfûz already beforehand i.e. before it befalls, or is done by its doer).


The Noble Qur'an - At-Takwir 81:28-29


To whomsoever among you who wills to walk straight, And you will not, unless (it be) that Allâh wills, the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists).


Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 4:621, Narrated Abu Huraira


Allah's Apostle said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam, 'You are Adam whose mistake expelled you from Paradise.' Adam said to him, 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His Messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly; yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my creation?' " Allah's Apostle said twice, "So, Adam overpowered Moses."


Hadith - Bukhari, Narrated Anas bin Malik


The Prophet said, "Allah has appointed an angel in the womb, and the angel says, 'O Lord! A drop of discharge (i.e. of semen), O Lord! a clot, O Lord! a piece of flesh.' And then, if Allah wishes to complete the child's creation, the angel will say. 'O Lord! A male or a female? O Lord! wretched or blessed (in religion)? What will his livelihood be? What will his age be?' The angel writes all this while the child is in the womb of its mother."


Hadith - Tirmidhi and Ahmad, Narrated Matar ibn Ukamis


Allah's Messenger said: When Allah decrees that a person is to die in a certain land, He creates a need for him to go there.


Hadith - Tirmidhi and Ahmad, Narrated AbudDarda'


Allah's Messenger said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, has ordained for every servant amongst His creation five things: his death, his action, his abode, the places of his moving about and his means of sustenance.


Hadith - Al-Tabrezi, Mishkat Al-Messabih


Allah has written for the son of Adam his inevitable share of adultery whether he is aware of it or not.


Muslim Creedal Statement - based on Qur'an 37:94


God’s one possible quality is His power to create good or evil at any time He wishes, that is His decree.... Both good things and evil things are the result of God’s decree. It is the duty of every Muslim to believe this.... It is He who causes harm and good. Rather the good works of some and the evil of others are signs that God wishes to punish some and to reward others. If God wishes to draw someone close to Himself, then He will give him the grace which will make that person do good works. If He wishes to reject someone and put that person to shame, then He will create sin in him. God creates all things, good and evil. God creates people as well as their actions: "He created you as well as what you do".


Hadith - Haqq 152


Abu Bakr and Umar came to the Apostle of Allah. Said he, "What is it you are disputing about that causes you to raise your voices so and cmake such a clammer?" "It is about the decree" they answered, "Abu Bakr asserts that Allah decrees good but does not decree evil, but Umar says that he decrees both alike." Mohammad replied, "The decree necessarily determines all that is good and sweet, and all that bitter. That is my decision between you." Then he slapped Abu Bakr on the shoulder and said, "Oh Abu Bakr, if Allah most high had not willed that there be disobedience, He would not have created the Devil."


Wael, I just want you to know that my purpose is not to argue or prove you wrong. I'm just trying to learn & understand your perception of Allah's world.


Thanks Mate!


God bless.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Wael, you're in China? As in Communist China??? Look out, bro! Don't pray out on the street, you might get arrested (God forbid).

Yes i am living in China... the communist <_< but things have changed now, we can pray anywhere now and no problem Alhamdulelah...


I have read the verses and Hadiths you have quoted it seems that they are matching perfectly with what catholic believe... so what is your problem?


Salam


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.

Yes i am living in China... the communist <_< but things have changed now, we can pray anywhere now and no problem Alhamdulelah...

Alleluia! I am so glad to hear that. Stay safe!

I have read the verses and Hadiths you have quoted it seems that they are matching perfectly with what catholic believe... so what is your problem?

That was uncalled for, Wael!


No need to discuss evil in Islam if you do not want to. I can always write a letter to the scholar you recommended & hope that he assists me in my studies.


Catholics don't believe God created evil. It would be contrary to God's nature. Satan is the fallen angel, Lucifer. God created him good & pure. In Catholicism, angels have freewill. Evil results from a lack of goodness on our part... it has nothing to do with God, who possesses infinite Goodness.


The above Ayats & Hadiths couldn't be further from Catholic understanding.


Peace!

[radiyah]

Bismillah

Catholics don't believe God created evil. It would be contrary to God's nature. Satan is the fallen angel, Lucifer. God created him good & pure. In Catholicism, angels have freewill. Evil results from a lack of goodness on our part... it has nothing to do with God, who possesses infinite Goodness.

Now first, Allah created Heaven and Hell, why ??


So if u do good u go to heaven and if u do evil u go to hell, then why is there evil in the world, if Allah did not permit it to happen then why does it exist, if all can sin and go to heaven, why Allah would create hell and let people do evil in the first place. If He knew that He will sacrifice His son for others then from the begining no need for heaven and hell, no need for all what we are going throuhg in this life, then we could have stayed in heaven in first place.


We are born in this life to be tested, evil is there for us created by Allah so we can be tested, nothing can exist in this world without His will or knowledge, when u say that He did no create it then u are saying that He has no ability or will over human beings, or has no knowledge that evil will happen, and so on, in Islam it is the contrary, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has the power over everything and He created everything, and knows what was and what will be. You want a God that is love only and forgive all sins that u make, and still can go to heaven. it does not make any sense. Yes it is a lack of goodness in our part, but by will of Allah(SWT) that has nothing to do with Him being Evil or possesing evil. He gives permission for everything to happen, evil and good.


Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:


<b>Everyone is going to taste death, and We shall make a trial of you with evil and with good, and to Us you will be returned. (Al-Anbiya 21:35)
</b>


Satan is not an angel Satan is from the Jin


Bismillah Al-ahman Al-Raheem:


<b>And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblîs (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him (Iblîs) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zâlimûn (polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc). (Al-Kahf 18:50)
</b>


Angels do not have free will, they do what they are ordered and they do not sin.


Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:


<b>O you who believe! Ward off from yourselves and your families a Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, over which are (appointed) angels stern (and) severe, who disobey not, (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allâh, but do that which they are commanded. (At-Tahrim 66:6)
</b>


This is what angels are, creations of Allah who obey Him and do what He asks them to do.


http://www.islamonline.net/english/introdu...article01.shtml

Alleluia

isnt this supposed to be Halleluyah. In Islam we have the word Hallello lahu= <b>هللو له</b> which means praise Allah as one.
Check in wikipedia the origin of it in hebrew, and psalms does it differ from Islam??


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallelujah


RT, Imagine yourself in a room alone with closed doors, can u see behind the door, of course not u cannot, now u are in the room have a pen in your hand and put it close to your eyes, can u see it yes u can, now keep it a bit far can u see it as it is clear as in front of your eyes, now throw it to the farest point of the room is it as clear as it is from first or second, now open the door throw the pen and close the door, can your sight see the pen that is behind the door?? :conf06: no u cannot. So if u cannot see a small object that is behind a door, how can u see the Creator of this vast Universe. Can u see The gravity RT. But it exists does it not. Humanity never knew ever about what existed in the universe until scientist started to study and search till we can see now all those fantastic pictures of the universe, can your weak eye sight see all those horizons without all those high technical cameras and machines. You must know u as a human being have limited powers in sight and hearing, so it does not work like I will not beleive until I c, I beleive that I am alive, I cannot exist without a Creator, and that Creator cannot create and leave His creations, because then everything will fall and blow into each other, The Creator creates, looks after His creations, attends them, and take care of them. The whole universe with what is in it humans jins and all creatures are Allah's creation, He looks after us hears and knows what was and what will be. I hope u think about it in the logic I put above, I will end it with a verse, I know u do not beleive in Quran, but read it wether convinced or not up to u, but i do pray that u will be more logical, and do not look at islam from a hating point of u, and do not look at it by what ignorant muslims do.


Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem:


<b>
</b>


We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their ownselves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur'ân) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things? (Fussilat 41:53)


Peace.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.


Peace be with you, radiyah :peace:


You asked quite a few questions & went on to provide answers yourself (from an Islamic perspective)... which is fantastic! Thanks so much for contributing :) But I'm just wondering if you were also seeking answers from me based on Catholic teaching ??? If so, please let me know. It appears that the Church's definitions of hell, evil, angels, life's purpose, etc, vary greatly from Islam's. I'm open to a friendly discussion if you are :D


By the way, I understand that Allah "permits" evil, however, what I was getting at is... <i>DOES ALLAH "CAUSE" EVIL</i>? I think this is an area where Islam & Catholicism clash... & many Muslims it seems :confused_smile:


"Alleluia" is the Latin form of "Hallelujah". Same meaning, darl ;)


You go girl :thumb: If you can convince RT that Allah exists, I'll give you a million dollars!!! Hope you have better luck than me :P


God bless you all.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

By the way, I understand that Allah "permits" evil, however, what I was getting at is... DOES ALLAH "CAUSE" EVIL? I think this is an area where Islam & Catholicism clash... & many Muslims it seems

Yes, maybe Catholics will disagree on this point, but the Bible will always say sometihng else!!


<b>Isaiah 45:7 </b>


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, <b>and create evil</b>: I the LORD do all these things."



Before you jump to interpret the verse the way that suite your Church’s beliefs, I would like to explain my understanding regarding this topic and I hope my brothers and sisters correct me if I was wrong…


In Islam God did create Satan as good until <b>“he choose with his free will” pride/evil</b>, and I guess this is exactly the interpretation of the verse above, which means God did created Satan, but He was not responsible for his evil deeds.


Salam


Wael.

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - All Good & All Loving!

Yes, maybe Catholics will disagree on this point, but the Bible will always say sometihng else!!

Yes, I agree! A Protestant Bible (which you quoted from) will always differ from a Catholic Bible ;)

Before you jump to interpret the verse the way that suite your Church’s beliefs

Hahaha! Great! You've learnt that there's always an answer :) Here I go again...


The verse is taken from a passage written in poetry form. God creates EVERYBODY - those who freely love Him & those who freely reject Him. We all belong to the One True God. The correct translation is: <i>"I am the Lord and there is no other ... I make weal and create woe."</i>


God creates human beings who turn evil, but evil, itself, cannot be created!


By the way, no one besides the Church has been given authority to interpret Scripture.

In Islam God did create Satan as good until <b>“he choose with his free will” pride/evil</b>

Yeah yeah yeah, we're past that initial stage, Wael! Was Satan just fulfilling Allah's plan though?

and I guess this is exactly the interpretation of the verse above, which means God did created Satan, but He was not responsible for his evil deeds.

You managed to understand the Bible but what about the Qur'an/Sunnah?


I know where you stand on this issue but are other Muslims permitted to shun the idea of complete freewill based on certain Ayats/Hadiths? Is private interpretation permitted in Islam? It appears that a handful of Muslims accept freewill as a core belief, whereas others find the whole concept foreign.

(FHC, sorry about all the unwanted company at your house)

Shucks pal :blush: Drop by anytime for some delicious Lebanese cuisine :D We'll even invite my Muslim neighbour over & have a ball :P

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:


Assalamo Alikum.

Yes, I agree! A Protestant Bible (which you quoted from) will always differ from a Catholic Bible

And I have full right to quote from whatever Bible available infront of me, because each of the Christian denominations claims that their Bible is <i>“The true Gospel of Jesus”, </i> they too have full right to make such claim since <b>there is no original source available today to verify which one is true and which is false.</b>

By the way, no one besides the Church has been given authority to interpret Scripture.

Of course you are referring to <i>the Catholic Church</i>, but other Churches interpretations are rejected…

Yeah yeah yeah, we're past that initial stage, Wael! Was Satan just fulfilling Allah's plan though?

Somehow you are right; Satan was created for important purposes. If Satan, who continually tries to seduce us, did not exist, our creation would be meaningless and futile. God gave us free will so that we could know good from evil. In addition, He gave us great potentials. Our development of these potentials and our struggle to choose between good and evil make us experience a constant battle in our inner and outer worlds. Just as God sends hawks upon sparrows so that the latter will develop their potential to escape, He created Satan and allowed him to tempt us so that our resistance to temptation will raise us spiritually and strengthen our willpower. Just as hunger stimulates human beings and animals to further exertion and discovery of new ways to be satisfied, and fear inspires new defenses, Satan’s temptations cause us to develop our potentials and guard against sin.


It is truly beautiful when you resist Satan’s temptation and defeat him. May Allah always protect us from such temptations, Ameen.

You managed to understand the Bible but what about the Qur'an/Sunnah?

Alhamdulelah am struggeling to gain better understanding of my Deen, may Allah increase our knowledge, give us wisdom and forgive our sins… Ameen.

I know where you stand on this issue but are other Muslims permitted to shun the idea of complete freewill based on certain Ayats/Hadiths?

As I told you in previous posts, I know <b>NO</b> Muslim who rejects the idea of "complete freewill", almost all Muslims do believe that God has given us free will to choose right from wrong, we are not just some puppets controlled by God. yes He is aware of whatever going to happen in the future but that doesnt mean that he is responsible for our actions... let me give you an example and hopefully insh a Allah you can get better understanding on this subject:


Suppose an experienced teacher, before the final examinations, predicts that a particular student will fail in the exams, since the student is very mischievous, not attentive in class and does not do his homework. If after the student appears for the examination, he fails, who is to be blamed for the student failing: the teacher or the student? Just because the teacher predicted, it does not mean that the teacher is to be blamed but the student himself is responsible for his failure.


Similarly Allah knows in advance that there are some people who are bent on rejecting the faith and follow evil, and so Allah has put a seal on their hearts. Thus these non-Muslims themselves are responsible for rejecting the faith and not Allah.

It appears that a handful of Muslims accept freewill as a core belief, whereas others find the whole concept foreign.

I have no idea from where did you get this in your head? Just because <i>ONE</i> ex Muslim guy has told you so you believe?


Salam


Wael.