A Tradgedy

[Faith Hope Charity]

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.


Salam Wael!


Here's one more question to add to your collection :lol:


Why did Allah create angels, jinns & humans? I agree that He's perfect (therefore, He doesn't anything/anyone). But what's the purpose of our existence?


Merci :)


God bless.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Why did Allah create angels, jinns & humans? I agree that He's perfect (therefore, He doesn't anything/anyone). But what's the purpose of our existence?


Merci :)

Allah created us for only one purpose and that is to worship him. He state in Quran: <b>"I have only created Jinns and men that they may worship Me; no support do I require from them nor do I require that they should feed Me." </b> (Chapter 51-56-57)


Our Prophet Mohammed pbuh says: <b>“Allah created this whole universe for the benefit of human beings. But He created the human beings for Himself”</b> We are created to adore Him as he adores us, to believe in Him. fear Him and obey His commands. He did not create us for any other purpose.


And if you want to know more about the meaning of the word “WORSHIP/Ibadah” in Islam then I guess sister Muslimah may enlighten us more on this subject.


Salam


Wael.

[Ruggedtouch]

Bismillah:


Allah created us for only one purpose and that is to worship him. He state in Quran: <b>"I have only created Jinns and men that they may worship Me; no support do I require from them nor do I require that they should feed Me." </b> (Chapter 51-56-57)


Our Prophet Mohammed pbuh says: <b>“Allah created this whole universe for the benefit of human beings. But He created the human beings for Himself”</b> We are created to adore Him as he adores us, to believe in Him. fear Him and obey His commands. He did not create us for any other purpose.


And if you want to know more about the meaning of the word “WORSHIP/Ibadah” in Islam then I guess sister Muslimah may enlighten us more on this subject.


Salam


Wael.

Splendid. You have provided us all with a fairly straightforward explanation for the self imposed limitations on your own intellectual latitude. But why you would imagine for a second that other thinking should people should accept those same limitations is beyond me.


You see, when not encumbered by those limitations, one is free to evaluate all the evidence at its face value, and not reject most of the historical record for purposes of theological convenience.


Sorry, but your claim that allah did this or that is a religious claim by definition, and cannot be shown to have any evidence. This clearly and inarguably separates it from rationality and reason. "God created this and that" is not supportable, it's a theistic claim.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

But why you would imagine for a second that other thinking should people should accept those same limitations is beyond me.

I will not imagine that someone like you will ever accept any of what I said, I don’t even expect that. :)

Sorry, but your claim that allah did this or that is a religious claim by definition, and cannot be shown to have any evidence. This clearly and inarguably separates it from rationality and reason. "God created this and that" is not supportable, it's a theistic claim.

The evidence is there, but i have no long breath to argue with someone who refused to listen and ready to argue for the sake of argument only or to win a debate.


Salam


Wael.

[Ruggedtouch]

Bismillah:


I will not imagine that someone like you will ever accept any of what I said, I don’t even expect that. :)

Intellectually honest people use facts to conceive their educated opinions, not defend their preconceived ones. But, of course, intellectual honesty isn't for everyone.

The evidence is there, but i have no long breath to argue with someone who refused to listen and ready to argue for the sake of argument only or to win a debate.
Salam


Wael.

Of course the "evidence" is there. Yet, quite revealingly, you are unable to provide specificity, merely vague, unsubstantiated assertions. Humans have (for millemnia) had gods, so such projections of a spirit world are integral to the human condition itself. Specific religions merely evidence cultural bias, a predilection for organization, sanctioned approved behaviour, etc. People always get religion wrong because they are fallible humans.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Of course the "evidence" is there. Yet, quite revealingly, you are unable to provide specificity, merely vague, unsubstantiated assertions. Humans have (for millemnia) had gods, so such projections of a spirit world are integral to the human condition itself. Specific religions merely evidence cultural bias, a predilection for organization, sanctioned approved behaviour, etc. People always get religion wrong because they are fallible humans.

The creation of the universe is the ultimate proof of the existence of one Creator.


Salam


Wael.

[Ruggedtouch]

Bismillah:


The creation of the universe is the ultimate proof of the existence of one Creator.


Salam


Wael.

Nonsense. You believe that because you've been coached by religious authorities who've told you it's true. You've blindly accepted the creation myths because it's promoted by the religious culture that you were raised in.

[Dan]

Bismillah


""God created this and that" is not supportable, it's a theistic claim."


"God did not create this and that" is not supportable, it's an atheiist claim.


You are on the board complaining about how muslims are arrogant but you see to be the most arrogant... and the least knowledgable. Your prejudiced blanket statements are, fortunately, revealing this intolerance.


Why are you asking for that which you do not give?

[Ruggedtouch]

Bismillah


""God created this and that" is not supportable, it's a theistic claim."


"God did not create this and that" is not supportable, it's an atheiist claim.


You are on the board complaining about how muslims are arrogant but you see to be the most arrogant... and the least knowledgable. Your prejudiced blanket statements are, fortunately, revealing this intolerance.


Why are you asking for that which you do not give?

Look Dan, I’m going to type this very slowly. See if you can stay with me.


Weal (and others), have made the positive assertion that the existence of the universe is proof of gods existence. This claim is made absent a single shred of supportable evidence.


My reply to wael’s claim was:

Nonsense. You believe that because you've been coached by religious authorities who've told you it's true. You've blindly accepted the creation myths because it's promoted by the religious culture that you were raised in.

Did you read anywhere my claiming

"God did not create this and that" is not supportable, it's an atheiist claim.”

?
No. You didn’t. Further, your comment is presumptive.


Suggesting a god(s) did this or that with any sort of <i>intent</i> is asserted by you, so now the onus for proving such intent rests solely with you. I do not assert nor embrace the idea that a god(s) of any persuasion intelligently directed any seemingly natural event.


You’re the one making that case. Please support your argument.


I’ve said repeatedly that the <i>theistic</i> claims of gods are self-contradictory and thus reject’able. But I made no claims to know for sure that a god couldn't have done it. Perhaps a god did! But there is no evidence of it, and there's nothing to say this god didn't do it and walk away, or didn't do it and die, or didn't do it period.


Every time I hear this same argument asserting that god(s) created the universe it just tells me that those who assert it are just unschooled in basic logic.


I don't "disprove" god(s), angels, etc., -- your requirement that someone disprove something is irrelevant right off the bat. I cannot disprove that which hasn't been proven to exist (or even been tried to be proven).


Look, use something other than god(s).


Do you believe in leprechauns? Let's assume you don't. I tell you leprechauns exist. Now, are you expected to "disprove" my assertion or are you obligated to believe me even though I offer no proof? Wouldn't you reply, "Prove leprechauns exist." ?


If I wanted to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, wouldn't you EXPECT me to show PROOF That I owned it? What if I say to you, "I have proof. You DISPROVE I own it?"


Come on people, this is SIMPLE. You don't go through life just mindlessly believing every assertion made, you ask for proof of things before you believe them.


The ONLY time you make exceptions is when it's a religious belief, because you would like for it all to be true. Then your normal standards of proof go flying out the window. It's ridiculously obvious.


Dan, by the way, you owe me 30 million dollars. Disprove it. If you can't I want my money in 24 hours.


First, let me make the frighteningly obvious point that most of this debate is not a question of evidence, and it should be, but rather one of chosen interpretation. We are drawn to one analytical framework or another. I will attempt to explain why it is that I prefer the abio/evolutionary framework over the spiritual.


Also, I have slightly different approaches in how I regard abiogenesis as opposed to evolution that I may go into in another (hopefully shorter) post. What both views have in common can be encapsulated in what I find preferable about naturalism as an explanation for physical.


The first reason is tired and old, but one that became so precisely because it bears repeating; naturalistic explanations that have passed through the filter of the scientific method or that are at least founded upon reasonable inductive hypotheses based on the available evidence have proven again and again to be far superior to any other method in bringing us to a better understanding of the universe, life, and even our place in it.


Physiology and psychology began the evisceration of metaphysics as the province of the philosophy and theology (although it is only right to recognize the extensive assistance of both philosopher and theologian in this task) and carried much of this lofty battle to a less friendly scientific arena where rude physical truths must be accounted for. In a similar way the development of the scientific method and the consensus it brings, combined with the academic and intellectual freedoms of the Renaissance and the Age of Enlightenment, left less and less room for literal interpretations of any creation stories.


It does us well to remember that Darwin was not operating in an intellectual vacuum regarding an old earth. The prevailing scientific viewpoint was that the earth was extremely old by the 1800s, which was at odds with a literal interpretation of the bible.


Assuming a natural explanation for phenomena has been validated again and again. Even the work of great intellects who sought to use their scientific discoveries as proofs of the glories of God, men like Copernicus and Newton, has been pressed into the service of naturalism. Their methods and the evidence thereby derived were completely sound; their motivations noble. Nevertheless, the naturalist has encompassed their learning and driven on, pushing back the limitations of naturalism further and further into the past, surging up even to the gates of the Original Origin itself.


The second reason is to some extent predicated on the first – as naturalism has had such coruscating success, why place limits on what it might achieve? Introducing supernaturalism into the picture is an unnecessarily limiting factor, particularly when the existence of this creator is itself speculative. Some would argue that this is a contradictory position to take; that locking out the divine from the picture is blinkered thinking. But I have yet to see a convincing argument as to how allowing for supernatural creation really advances our understanding. Without a plausible framework to show us how we are to know the sculptors hand or understand the tools that he used, it is futile.


Until theology or creation science can come up with a plausible means to investigate the method of supernatural creation, some tentative hypothesis, a beginnings of a framework, then what useful role can they have in advancement of knowledge? Even the more sophisticated arguments of intelligent design only seem to serve as foils for complexity, not as alternative mechanisms. In physics, when infinity shows up as a result of equations, the equations are not considered solved; they are considered to have no real-world validity. Supernatural intervention as a function seems to have a similar deadening effect.


Is this approach hubris? Is it misplaced pride? I don’t believe so, if we proceed such that human knowledge is still paltry and unsure, especially when compared to the vast spans of energy, matter, and time that encompass us. We have made some astounding discoveries and gained some amazing insights into the fundamentals of nature, but there is so much left to be discovered and it may never be possible to answer the most significant questions with any certainty. Even the purest realms of deductive reasoning are bounded by the rules of their own systems. Knowledge, evidence, inductive or deductive reasoning aren’t absolute.


So basically, Dan, don’t be such a rube.

[Ruggedtouch]

Besides all these negative things that caused by Evil, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. So it is wrong to see one side of the coin (Evil) and not to see the other side (goodness). Please also note that it is a fact that the element of good is more in the creation than the element of evil. We all see that there are more people who are healthy than those who are sick. There are more that eat well than those who starve. There are more that lead decent life than those who commit crimes. Goodness is the rule and evil is the exception. Virtue is the norm and sin is the aberration. Generally trees bear fruits, the flowers bloom, the winds move smoothly.
But then the question is why does Allah allow these exceptions to the rules?


Let us ask this question to understand Allah’s ways in His creation. The Qur’an tells us that good, evil and whatever happens in this world happens by Allah’s Will (mashi’at Allah). Only Allah knows fully His Will. We finite beings cannot grasp fully His infinite Will and Wisdom. He runs His universe the way He deems fit. The Qur’an tells us that Allah is Wise and everything that Allah does is right, just, good and fair. We must submit and surrender to His Will. The Qur’an has not given us all the details about Allah’s Will, but it has enlightened us with the guidance that is useful and sufficient for us. There are several points that we should keep in our mind to understand this issue:


1. First of all, Allah did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times comes it will die, come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, nor the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the evil consequences of their sins and corruption.


2. Allah has placed a physical law and a moral law in this universe. Allah allows suffering to occur when one or more of these laws are broken. The physical law is based on cause and effect. Sickness comes if one does not take care of one’s health or is exposed to infections. A car accident occurs when one is not alert, or drives in a careless manner, or if the cars are not checked, roads and freeways are not made and kept in right shape, or the traffic laws are not right or not properly enforced. Study of causes and effects is very important to facilitate safeguards. Even here we should keep in mind that Allah often saves us and He does not let us suffer from every negligence. How many times it happens that we are not careful and still we reach safely to our destinations. The way people drive in some cities, it is a miracle that more accidents do not happen and more people do not suffer. Allah says:


“(Allah) Most Gracious! It is He Who has taught the Qur’an. He has created man: He has taught him speech (and Intelligence). The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; and the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice), in order that you may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance. It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures." (Ar-Rahman:1-10)


The way we exceed the measures set by Allah and violate His laws of cause and effect is incredible. It is really the mercy of Allah that we are saved. Strictly speaking, the question should not be why does Allah allow suffering, but how much Allah protects us and saves us all the time in spite of our violations and negligence. The Qur’an says:


“If Allah were to punish people according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His servants." (Fatir:45)


But sometimes Allah does punish people because of their violations of His laws whether they are physical or moral. The Qur’an tells us that many nations and communities were destroyed because of their sinful lifestyles:


“If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the Peoples before them (with their Prophets), the People of Noah, and Ad and Thamud. Those of Abraham and Lut; and the Companions of the Madyan people; and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)! How many populations have We destroyed, which were given to wrong-doing! They tumbled down on their roofs. And how many wells are lying idle and neglected, and castles lofty and well-built?" (Al-Hajj: 42-45)


3. Suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. Allah allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Even Allah’s Prophets and Messengers were made to suffer. Prophet Ayyub is mentioned in the Qur’an as a Prophet who was very patient. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.


4. Allah sometimes allows some people to suffer to test others, how they react to them. When you see a person who is sick, poor and needy, then you are tested by Allah. Allah is there with that suffering person to test your charity and your faith. In a very moving Hadith Qudsi (Divine Hadith) the Prophet, peace be upon him, said:


“Allah will say on the Day of Judgment, ‘O son of Adam, I was sick and you did not visit Me.’ He will say, ‘O my Lord, how could I visit You, when you are the Lord of the Worlds.’ Allah will say, ‘Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was sick and you did not visit him? Did you not know that if you had visited him, you would have found Me there?’ Allah will say, ‘O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not.’ He shall say, ‘O my Lord, how could I feed you and you are the Lord of the Worlds?’ And Allah will say, ‘Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was in need of food and you did not feed him? Did you not know that if you had fed him, you would have found that to have been for Me?’ ‘O son of Adam, I asked you for water and you did not give Me to drink.’ The man shall say, ‘O my Lord, how could I give You water, when You are the Lord of the Worlds?’ Allah will say, ‘My servant so-and-so asked you for water and you did not give him to drink water. Did you not know that if you had given him to drink, you would have found that to have been for Me.’ (Muslim, Hadith no. 4661)


Prophet `Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, is also reported to have said something similar. (See Matthew 25: 35-45)


So to summarize, we can say that sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to Allah’s natural and moral laws. It is sometimes to punish those who violate Allah’s natural or moral laws. It is to test our faith in Allah and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves, “Have we broken any law of Allah?” Let us study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods. “Could it be a punishment?” Let us repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways. “Could it be a test and trial for us?” Let us work hard to pass this test.


Believers face the sufferings with prayers, repentance and good deeds. The non-believers face the sufferings with doubts and confusions. They blame Allah or make arguments against Him.

What an utterly bleak and hopeless existence this portrays.


Good thing none of it is supportable as fact.