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Faith Hope Charity · 01-27-2007, 01:47 PM

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.

Although you said there's no need to reply, like you, I'm sorry, I felt compelled to :D

Wael, 2 out of the 3 passages you mentioned are self-explanatory (when read in the correct context), so all I'm going to do is rewrite them within their proper boundaries & leave the meditation to you. I'll provide a brief explanation for the 3rd passage, however, I recall that you & I have previously been through it. Please pay attention this time, Mister :angry2: :lol:

I can't find an RSV translation online so I've opted for the NAB, which can't be too bad considering it's the one used on the Vatican's official website - it's way easier to understand...

St John 5:19-46

19

Jesus answered and said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also.

20

For the Father loves his Son and shows him everything that he himself does, and he will show him greater works than these, so that you may be amazed.

21

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes.

22

Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to his Son,

23

so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

24

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

25

Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

26

For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.

27

And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

28

Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice

29

and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

30

"I cannot do anything on my own; I judge as I hear, and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

31

"If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony cannot be verified.

32

But there is another who testifies on my behalf, and I know that the testimony he gives on my behalf is true.

33

You sent emissaries to John, and he testified to the truth.

34

I do not accept testimony from a human being, but I say this so that you may be saved.

35

He was a burning and shining lamp, and for a while you were content to rejoice in his light.

36

But I have testimony greater than John's. The works that the Father gave me to accomplish, these works that I perform testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me.

37

Moreover, the Father who sent me has testified on my behalf. But you have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

38

and you do not have his word remaining in you, because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent.

39

You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.

40

But you do not want to come to me to have life.

41

"I do not accept human praise;

42

moreover, I know that you do not have the love of God in you.

43

I came in the name of my Father, but you do not accept me; yet if another comes in his own name, you will accept him.

44

How can you believe, when you accept praise from one another and do not seek the praise that comes from the only God?

45

Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father: the one who will accuse you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope.

46

For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me.

47

But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

St John 13:12-20

12

So when he had washed their feet and put his garments back on and reclined at table again, he said to them, "Do you realize what I have done for you?

13

You call me 'teacher' and 'master,' and rightly so, for indeed I am.

14

If I, therefore, the master and teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash one another's feet.

15

I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should also do.

16

Amen, amen, I say to you, no slave is greater than his master nor any messenger greater than the one who sent him.

17

If you understand this, blessed are you if you do it.

18

I am not speaking of all of you. I know those whom I have chosen. But so that the scripture might be fulfilled, 'The one who ate my food has raised his heel against me.'

19

From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM.

20

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me."

St John 14: 9-31

9

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

10

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

11

Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.

12

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.

13

And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14

If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.

15

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

16

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,

17

the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

18

I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

19

In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.

20

On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.

21

Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."

22

Judas, not the Iscariot, 11 said to him, "Master, then what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"

23

Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.

24

Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.

25

"I have told you this while I am with you.

26

The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.

27

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.

28

You heard me tell you, 'I am going away and I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

29

And now I have told you this before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe.

30

I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming. He has no power over me,

31

but the world must know that I love the Father and that I do just as the Father has commanded me.

"Jesus is saying that the Father is "greater" because the Father's position in heaven is one of greater dignity and authority than the Son occupies on earth. This meaning, then, makes clear why the disciples should rejoice. The Son is returning to the right hand of the Father, to the glory He had with the Father before His existence on earth (St John 17:5). He had voluntarily humbled Himself in coming to earth (Philippians 2:6), taking the form of a servant. Now Jesus was returning to the Father to regain His former glory, where He could accomplish all the wonderful things promised to the disciples in His final discourse."

I'm aware that Muslims respect & honour Jesus Christ as a beloved Prophet, but isn't it true that Muslims regard Mohammad (PBUH) as the greatest of all prophets? Are you positive the Qur'an says not to make a distinction?

I just want you to know that although I'm always prepared to defend my faith, my goal isn't to convert anyone on these boards. I'm getting more than I originally bargained for. I had no idea I'd be spending so much time discussing my beliefs on an Islamic forum - hehe!

Glory to God, peace on earth, good-will to all.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 01-29-2007, 03:08 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Assalamo Alikum FHC

St John 5:19-46

19

Jesus answered and said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also.

20

For the Father loves his Son and shows him everything that he himself does, and he will show him greater works than these, so that you may be amazed.

21

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes.

22

Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to his Son,

23

so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

24

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

25

Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

26

For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.

27

And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

28

Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice

29

and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

30

"I cannot do anything on my own; I judge as I hear, and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

31

"If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony cannot be verified.

32

But there is another who testifies on my behalf, and I know that the testimony he gives on my behalf is true.

33

You sent emissaries to John, and he testified to the truth.

34

I do not accept testimony from a human being, but I say this so that you may be saved.

35

He was a burning and shining lamp, and for a while you were content to rejoice in his light.

36

But I have testimony greater than John's. The works that the Father gave me to accomplish, these works that I perform testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me.

37

Moreover, the Father who sent me has testified on my behalf. But you have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

38

and you do not have his word remaining in you, because you do not believe in the one whom he has sent.

39

You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.

40

But you do not want to come to me to have life.

41

"I do not accept human praise;

42

moreover, I know that you do not have the love of God in you.

43

I came in the name of my Father, but you do not accept me; yet if another comes in his own name, you will accept him.

44

How can you believe, when you accept praise from one another and do not seek the praise that comes from the only God?

45

Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father: the one who will accuse you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope.

46

For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me.

47

But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

Where in the above verses where Jesus declares that he did anything on his own power? In facts he admits that he was given the power by God (NOT HIS OWN)…

I do not want to argue about this much. But to be honest with you, I cannot see anywhere in the Bible where Jesus pbuh was doing anything on his own, all the works that he have done is God's (The Father if you would like to call Him), which mean to me that Jesus pbuh was not God.

13

You call me 'teacher' and 'master,' and rightly so, for indeed I am.

Very interesting verse… is there any verse similar to this where he said indeed I am God Almighty? (Please don’t quote “before Abraham was I am” because its vague and does not really mean that he is God)

10

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

according to Jesus the Father is dwelling in everyone, however this verse is another declaration from the lips of the master that the Father is the doer of all these great works and not Jesus. (in other words, Jesus is not doing anything on his own).

I'm aware that Muslims respect & honour Jesus Christ as a beloved Prophet, but isn't it true that Muslims regard Mohammad (PBUH) as the greatest of all prophets?

Not only Muslims who regard Muhammad pbuh as the greatest of all human beings, please allow me to quote unbiased historians, friendly critics and even avowed enemies and see what they said about that mighty messenger of God Muhammad pbuh. If the tributes of the non Muslims do not touch your heart, then there is nothing more can be said FHC…

Taken from Ahmed Deedat’s works.

Michael H. Hart, described as a historian, mathematician and astronomer has written a book called “The 100”. He has searched history, seeking for men who had the greatest influence on mankind. In this book he gives us The hundred most influential men, including Asoka, Aristotle, Buddha, Confucius, Hitler, Plato, and Zoroaster. He does not give us a mere chart of the topmost "one hundred" from the point of view of their influence on people, but he evaluates the degree of their influence and rates them in order of their excellence from No. 1, through to No. 100. He gives us his reasons for the placing of his candidates. We are not asked to agree with him, but we cannot help admire the man's research and honesty.

The most amazing thing about his selection is that he has put our Prophet Muhammad pbuh on the top of his list as No. 1 unknowingly, God's Own testimony in His Final Revelation to the World: 

MOST CERTAINLY, YOU HAVE IN THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH AN EXCELLENT PATTERN (OF BEHAVIOUR)
Holy Quran 33:21

A N D he placed Jesus pbuh as No 3. and he gave us his reason.

SINCE THERE ARE ROUGHLY TWICE AS MANY CHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD, IT MAY INITIALLY SEEM STRANGE THAT MUHAMMAD HAS BEEN RANKED HIGHER THAN JESUS. THERE ARE TWO PRINCIPAL REASONS FOR THAT DECISION.

MUHAMMAD PLAYED A FAR MORE IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF ISLAM THAN JESUS DID IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF 

CHRISTIANITY.

ALTHOUGH JESUS WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MAIN ETHICAL AND MORAL PRECEPTS OF CHRISTIANITY (INSOFAR AS THESE DIFFERED FROM JUDAISM), ST. PAUL WAS THE MAIN DEVELOPER OF CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY, ITS PRINCIPAL MUHAMMAD, HOWEVER, WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR BOTH THE THEOLOGY OF ISLAM AND ITS MAIN ETHICAL AND MORAL PRINCIPLES. IN ADDITION, HE PLAYED THE KEY ROLE IN PROSELYTIZING THE NEW FAITH, AND IN ESTABLISHING THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OF ISLAM. 

Michael H. Hart in his book - "THE 100"-pages 38/39

"MY CHOICE OF MUHAMMAD TO LEAD THE LIST OF THE WORLD'S MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS MAY SURPRISE SOME READERS AND MAY BE 

QUESTIONED BY OTHERS, BUT HE WAS THE ONLY MAN IN HISTORY WHO WAS SUPREMELY SUCCESSFUL ON BOTH THE RELIGIOUS AND SECULAR LEVEL."

Michael H. Hart "The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in history"

JULES MASSERMAN, United States psychoanalyst and professor of the Chicago University said:

"Leaders must fulfil three functions--"

No. 1 THE LEADER MUST PROVIDE FOR THE WELL-BEING OF THE LEAD ...

No. 2 THE LEADER OR WOULD BE LEADER MUST PROVIDE A SOCIAL ORGANIZATION IN WHICH PEOPLE FEEL RELATIVELY SECURE ...

No. 3 THAT THIS LEADER MUST PROVIDE HIS PEOPLE WITH ONE SET OF BELIEFS ...

PERHAPS THE GREATEST LEADER OF ALL TIMES WAS MUHAMMED, WHO COMBINED ALL THREE FUNCTIONS. TO A LESSER DEGREE, MOSES 

DID THE SAME

I think those people were not bribed to record such facts and share them with the rest of the world.

More quotes?

A Hindu scholar - Diwan Chand Sharma in his "The Prophets of the East," Calcutta 1935, p. 122.

"FOUR YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF JUSTINIAN, A.D. 569, WAS BORN AT MAKKAH, IN ARABIA THE MAN WHO, OF ALL MEN EXERCISED THE GREATEST INFLUENCE UPON THE HUMAN RACE ... MOHAMMED ..."

George Bernard Shaw, in "The Genuine Islam,- Vol. 1, No. 81936.

"I HAVE STUDIED HIM - THE WONDERFUL MAN - AND IN MY OPINION FAR FROM BEING AN ANTI-CHRIST, HE MUST BE CALLED THE SAVIOUR OF HUMANITY."

R. Bosworth-Smith in "Mohammed and Mohammedanism".- 1946.

"BY A FORTUNE ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE IN HIS- TORY, MOHAMMED IS A THREEFOLD FOUNDER OF A NATION, OF AN EMPIRE, AND OF A RELIGION."

Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th Edition

"MOHAMMED WAS THE MOST SUCCESSFUL OF ALL RELIGIOUS PERSONALITIES."

So not only Muslims who considered Muhammad to be the greatest, but even honest Non Muslims validate this fact.

Are you positive the Qur'an says not to make a distinction?

This link answers your question smart lady :)

Muhammad pbuh

I just want you to know that although I'm always prepared to defend my faith, my goal isn't to convert anyone on these boards.

Your goal and intention are clear and we believe you. Also our intention not to convert anyone to Islam, this is not our job, it’s only through Allah’s Guidance and Mercy do people find their way to Islam.

Salam

Wael.

Faith Hope Charity · 01-29-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:Bismillah:

Assalamo Alikum FHC

In the Name of God - Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier.

Wa alaykum al salam :)

Quote:Where in the above verses where Jesus declares that he did anything on his own power? In facts he admits that he was given the power by God (NOT HIS OWN)…

I do not want to argue about this much. But to be honest with you, I cannot see anywhere in the Bible where Jesus pbuh was doing anything on his own, all the works that he have done is God's (The Father if you would like to call Him), which mean to me that Jesus pbuh was not God.

I gave you ingredients to bake the cake yourself but all you did was make a mess in my kitchen - LOL!

We're not arguing, just discussing. I'm happy to carry on & I'm happy to stop - it's your call.

The passage clearly indicates that the Father & Son are co-equal. You don't even need a Catechism to work that one out.

I know that the idea of the Blessed Trinity is frowned upon in Islam & that's cool. There's a difference between understanding a truth & accepting it. I'm not asking for both.

Quote:Very interesting verse… is there any verse similar to this where he said indeed I am God Almighty? (Please don’t quote “before Abraham was I am” because its vague and does not really mean that he is God)

Wael, it's obvious that you're just testing me - LOL! I'll play your game, brother :P

St John 20:28-29 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe."

Yes, yes, yes... I know every Islamic apologist has a rebuttal for this verse. You can humour me all you like :D Just remember that taking God's name in vain is a breach of the 2nd Commandment, no Jew, let alone Christ, would condone such sin. & we've already touched on the Psalm Jesus recited whilst being crucified upon the Cross (My God, My God...), so please don't bring that up again. Best to just let it go!

Quote:10

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

according to Jesus the Father is dwelling in everyone, however this verse is another declaration from the lips of the master that the Father is the doer of all these great works and not Jesus. (in other words, Jesus is not doing anything on his own).

The Holy Spirit dwells within everybody.

Please read the first sentence of that verse again.

The Father & the Son cannot be separated.

One God, remember?

Quote:Not only Muslims who regard Muhammad pbuh as the greatest of all human beings, please allow me to quote unbiased historians, friendly critics and even avowed enemies and see what they said about that mighty messenger of God Muhammad pbuh. If the tributes of the non Muslims do not touch your heart, then there is nothing more can be said FHC…

That's awesome, Wael!

I value their opinion but I'm quite capable of forming my own. Besides, I didn't say anything contrary to their statements, all I did was ask a simple question - LOL!

John Lennon once topped a list of "The Most Influential People Ever". Jesus Christ & Mohammad (PBUH) were featured in the top 20. From memory, Moses beat them both.

Different strokes for different folks!

Quote:This link answers your question smart lady :)

Muhammad pbuh

Merci smart gentleman :)

"All prophets were sent to their own people for their own time (Ibrahim 14:4), but Prophet Muhammad was sent to all people for all time to come (Saba’ 34:28)."

I thought the Qur'an reveals that the Blessed Virgin Mary & her Son, Jesus Christ, were sent as a sign to ALL nations (I can't remember which sura/ayat but I can always find out for you if you're unfamiliar with it). Is that relevent at all to the above quote?

Quote:Your goal and intention are clear and we believe you. Also our intention not to convert anyone to Islam, this is not our job, it’s only through Allah’s Guidance and Mercy do people find their way to Islam.

Thanks for believing me :) Is it Allah's will that I be a Christian? Muslims hold a very strong belief in predestination, right? Perhaps I'm the way I am because that's what Allah decrees. Yes or no??? I have no idea!!!

Shukran Wael! Take care & God bless.

wel_mel_2 · 01-30-2007, 08:21 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:The passage clearly indicates that the Father & Son are co-equal. You don't even need a Catechism to work that one out.

Then why I cannot get it? 

If we agree for the sake of discussion that the Father and His son are co equal (and simultaneously co eternal), then the Father also must have died when Jesus Crucified. Otherwise we cannot call them co equal or co eternal.

Plus...

* Jesus declared that the Father is GREATER than him (not equal)

* Jesus declared that no one (and he included himself) knows about the Day of Judgment except the Father (not equal) If Jesus and God were equal then it follows that they will be equal in knowledge, which is not the case.

Quote:I know that the idea of the Blessed Trinity is frowned upon in Islam & that's cool. There's a difference between understanding a truth & accepting it. I'm not asking for both.

I am not asking for both either, I am honestly trying to understand it, but since no one can explain it (said St Augustine), then how can you expect us to understand something ambiguous?

Quote:Very interesting verse… is there any verse similar to this where he said indeed I am God Almighty? (Please don’t quote “before Abraham was I am” because its vague and does not really mean that he is God)

Wael, it's obvious that you're just testing me - LOL! I'll play your game, brother

Believe me FHC, am not playing any games… frankly speaking, I have no time for playing such games, and if my intention is to test you or to waste your time, then I shall expect no reward from God Almighty… am honestly asking you a very simple question (please read my statement carfully) because I myself till this day did not find any clear statement from the lips of Jesus himself where he plainly said "I am God Almighty, therefore worship me". There is none.

Quote:St John 20:28-29 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

That is really funny, in your post# 15 in thread “Three Beloved Prophets of Islam” when I told you about my wife’s miscarriage, then you said to me…

My Lord & My God!

Did anyone here understand that I am God (Astaghfurullah) ??? :D

Quote:Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe."
Yes, yes, yes... I know every Islamic apologist has a rebuttal for this verse.

Now you are quoting your Bible out of context…

You know what, when I read this verse, I immediately thought that I had finally found a verse that explicitly claims that Jesus "is" God. But please bear in mind that those words “My Lord and My God” spoken by Thomas and not by Jesus. However, there are a number of problems with interpreting this verse to mean that Jesus is God.

Firstly, the phrase "Thomas answered" is somewhat misleading since nowhere before this verses was Thomas asked a question. Thomas' words could more appropriately be referred to as an "outburst" or an "exclamation." This is indeed why most translations of the Bible (excluding the King James Version) follow this exclamation with an "exclamation mark" as follows: "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God !"

Christian scholars such as Theodore of Mopsuestia (c.350-428), the Bishop of Mopsuestia, interpreted this verse to not be directed at Jesus but at God "the Father." Thus, it is similar in meaning to our modern exclamations of surprise "My God!" or "My Lord!." In other words, this was an outburst designed to display surprise and disbelief rather than an affirmation that Jesus was in fact God.

That’s why I said earlier, that there is no where in the Bible any clear statement from Jesus himself claiming divinity… all verses that you may show are open for many interpretations. But as you know well, God is not the author of confusion!!!

Quote:The Father & the Son cannot be separated.
One God, remember?

Remember… The Father &The Son cannot be separated, therefore, The Father must have died with the Son after the alleged Crucifixion, or else don’t ever say that they cannot be separated.

Quote:"All prophets were sent to their own people for their own time (Ibrahim 14:4), but Prophet Muhammad was sent to all people for all time to come (Saba’ 34:28)."
I thought the Qur'an reveals that the Blessed Virgin Mary & her Son, Jesus Christ, were sent as a sign to ALL nations (I can't remember which sura/ayat but I can always find out for you if you're unfamiliar with it). Is that relevent at all to the above quote?

You are referring to Chapter 19 called Mary… Here Allah wanted to make Jesus as a sign for man. What this basically means is that Allah wanted the virgin birth to signify a mighty miracle and mighty proof and sign of God, because such a thing was impossible and unthinkable. But his message was meant only to the Jews and not to the whole of mankind, as it is also mentioned in the Bible that Jesus said “ I WAS NOT SEN BUT TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL”

Quote:Is it Allah's will that I be a Christian?

No you were born as a Muslim, The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist."

Quote:Muslims hold a very strong belief in predestination, right? Perhaps I'm the way I am because that's what Allah decrees. Yes or no??? I have no idea!!!

I leave this part for sister Muslimah to answer insh a Allah.

Salam for now

Wael.

Faith Hope Charity · 01-30-2007, 12:58 PM

My Lord & my God!

May the peace of Christ be with you!

Quote:Bismillah:

Then why I cannot get it?

Don't worry about it. Maybe it's better if you don't get it.

Quote:If we agree for the sake of discussion that the Father and His son are co equal (and simultaneously co eternal), then the Father also must have died when Jesus Crucified. Otherwise we cannot call them co equal or co eternal.

For the millionth time... Jesus Christ experienced death in His humanity, not His divinity.

Quote:* Jesus declared that the Father is GREATER than him (not equal)

* Jesus declared that no one (and he included himself) knows about the Day of Judgment except the Father (not equal) If Jesus and God were equal then it follows that they will be equal in knowledge, which is not the case.

Wael, I explained point 1 to you in this thread, & I explained the 2nd point to you in another thread. If I thought there were other members/guests following this topic then I'd go through it again, but I have a feeling it's just you & I - hehe!

Quote:I am not asking for both either, I am honestly trying to understand it, but since no one can explain it (said St Augustine), then how can you expect us to understand something ambiguous?

St Augustine said that it's easier to count every grain of sand along the beach then to fully comprehend the dogma of the Blessed Trinity. He never doubted the truth though! Numerous theologians over the years have developed a better understanding of the Blessed Trinity. John Paul II wrote many incredible & truly profound homilies in which he related the Blessed Trinity to the communion of love & everlasting bond between a human family on earth. Of course, there's a huge difference between humans & God, however, JP2 spoke in human terms to emphasize the harmony between the Father, Son & Holy Spirit & unbreakable union between a husband, wife & their child. The collection of homilies were formed into a book titled "Theology of the Body." If you like, I can send you a copy :)

Quote:Believe me FHC, am not playing any games… frankly speaking, I have no time for playing such games, and if my intention is to test you or to waste your time, then I shall expect no reward from God Almighty… am honestly asking you a very simple question (please read my statement carfully) because I myself till this day did not find any clear statement from the lips of Jesus himself where he plainly said "I am God Almighty, therefore worship me". There is none.

Why did you tell me not to mention, "Before Abraham was, I am" ("I am" is what God said to Moses on Mt Sinai). St John tells us that Jesus' disciples worshipped Him (St John 24:52).

Wael, let me ask you a reverse question... if you were a Christian meditating on Scripture, how could you not know that Jesus is the Son of God?

Quote:Bismillah:

That is really funny, in your post# 15 in thread “Three Beloved Prophets of Islam” when I told you about my wife’s miscarriage, then you said to me…

My Lord & My God!

Did anyone here understand that I am God (Astaghfurullah) ??? :D

:(

If you think that I'd foolishly break God's Commandments, then you don't know me as well as I thought you did!

Like St Thomas, Christians say "My Lord & My God" when they feel that He is near. I say it as soon as I wake up in the morning, when I hop in my car, before a meal, in unfortunate situations when I acknowledge His presence & ask for His divine assistance (like the other day after I'd just found out about your baby), etc.

I guess I need to keep in mind that I'm chatting to Muslims not Christians & they're not going to automatically understand what I mean. Anyways, I'm happy to teach as well as learn.

An exclamation mark indicates just that... exclamation. As you're aware, I use it a lot! Because I speak with such enthusiasm & excitement! It's a positive outcry.

Every Muslim I speak to has identical (word for word) objections/arguments. Where do you learn this stuff, man? LOL!

I'm challenging you to think for yourself!

Quote:Christian scholars such as Theodore of Mopsuestia (c.350-428), the Bishop of Mopsuestia, interpreted this verse to not be directed at Jesus but at God "the Father." Thus, it is similar in meaning to our modern exclamations of surprise "My God!" or "My Lord!." In other words, this was an outburst designed to display surprise and disbelief rather than an affirmation that Jesus was in fact God.

Theodore of Mopsuestia (RIP) never denied Christ's divinity, however, he did teach multiple other heresies. He was one step away from excommunication. He mended his relationship with the Church before his death.

By the way, the only person on earth who's infallible on doctrines regarding faith & morals is the Pope when he's teaching ex-Cathedra.

Quote:That’s why I said earlier, that there is no where in the Bible any clear statement from Jesus himself claiming divinity… all verses that you may show are open for many interpretations. But as you know well, God is not the author of confusion!!!

You are referring to Chapter 19 called Mary… Here Allah wanted to make Jesus as a sign for man. What this basically means is that Allah wanted the virgin birth to signify a mighty miracle and mighty proof and sign of God, because such a thing was impossible and unthinkable. But his message was meant only to the Jews and not to the whole of mankind, as it is also mentioned in the Bible that Jesus said “ I WAS NOT SEN BUT TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL”

Big mistake! The Bible is not open to interpretation. No no no! Of course, God's not the author of confusion. It's Satan who tries to brainwash us.

Quote:You are referring to Chapter 19 called Mary… Here Allah wanted to make Jesus as a sign for man. What this basically means is that Allah wanted the virgin birth to signify a mighty miracle and mighty proof and sign of God, because such a thing was impossible and unthinkable. But his message was meant only to the Jews and not to the whole of mankind, as it is also mentioned in the Bible that Jesus said “ I WAS NOT SEN BUT TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL”

Thanks for the clarification!

If you're referring to St Matthew 10:5, Jesus sent His apostles out on their first mission they were to avoid preaching to the Gentiles/Samaritans for the time being & spread the good news amongst Jews. The change-over from the old to the new people of God is taking place. Jesus Christ & His followers (St Paul in particular later revealed the Gospel to non-Jews).

Quote:No you were born as a Muslim, The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist."

I leave this part for sister Muslimah to answer insh a Allah.

As you know by now, I'm a perfectionist. I need to know EVERYTHING!!! Any idea why Allah would allow my parents to do that - turn me into a Christian?

I'll speak to you soon, Insh a Allah :)

Look after yourself!

Teh_Curious · 01-31-2007, 05:45 AM

Quote:In your case, yes Allah Knows you are Nasarania (Christian), although this is not what Allah Commanded you to be or Wants you to be. Yet, you are allowed a place on earth, benefit of Allah's countless blessings, allowed a chance to interact with Muslims and understand..

i ask a second time ... why would god send us his only son to spread the good news, then send someone like mohammed that preached .. pretty much the exact opposite of Jesus?

***Muslimah*** · 01-31-2007, 12:50 PM

Bismillah

salam FHC

Your point is totally irrelevant, you asked if your situation is the fruit of Allah's Will and if Allah Wants u to remain so. I tried to give u a reply.

Re read the reply, that was the point I mainly addressed.

Faith Hope Charity · 02-01-2007, 12:58 AM

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit...

May the peace of Christ be with you!

Quote:Your point is totally irrelevant, you asked if your situation is the fruit of Allah's Will and if Allah Wants u to remain so. I tried to give u a reply.

Re read the reply, that was the point I mainly addressed.

Muslimah, I don't think it's irrelevant, but rather, ties in nicely with what you wrote. It was the first thought that popped into my mind when you mentioned the sources of evil.

If my situation isn't what Allah willed for me, then it must be evil! But what is evil according to Islam? Where did it originate? Is it as powerful as Allah?

Will I receive an answer if I create a new thread?

Shukran :)

wel_mel_2 · 02-01-2007, 02:38 AM

Bismillah:

Assalamo Alikum FHC

Don't worry about it. Maybe it's better if you don't get it.

Alhamdulelah…

For the millionth time... Jesus Christ experienced death in His humanity, not His divinity.

So ONLY death did separate The Father from the Son, so don’t say that both cannot be separated.

Wael, I explained point 1 to you in this thread, & I explained the 2nd point to you in another thread. If I thought there were other members/guests following this topic then I'd go through it again, but I have a feeling it's just you & I - hehe!

Believe me if your explanation was sufficient enough,I would've never mention these points again, still I cannot see that Father and Son are equal.

St Augustine said that it's easier to count every grain of sand along the beach then to fully comprehend the dogma of the Blessed Trinity.

This is exactly what some priests have told me in the Philippines, they even make it clearer to me, they said “Son, we just have to believe in it”. 

Even some Christian scholars said the same:

God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it."
(Monsignor Eugene Clark)

John Paul II wrote many incredible & truly profound homilies in which he related the Blessed Trinity to the communion of love & everlasting bond between a human family on earth. Of course, there's a huge difference between humans & God, however, JP2 spoke in human terms to emphasize the harmony between the Father, Son & Holy Spirit & unbreakable union between a husband, wife & their child. The collection of homilies were formed into a book titled "Theology of the Body." If you like, I can send you a copy

You mean by email? Yes sure I will appreciate it. :)

But please note that even JP2 declared that "The inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity." (Pope John Paul II)

It is a mystery FHC, can never be clear.

Catholic scholars karl Rahner and Herbert Vorgimler stated in their Theological Dictionary: "The Trinity is a mystery . . . in the strict sense . . ., which could not be known without revelation, and even after revelation cannot become wholly intelligible."

A catholic Scholar admits that Trinity is not going to be fully understandable, just I want you to agree on this point and that’s it.

A L S O…

Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it….From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity."

And in the book of Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes:

The Trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows direct link with Christian theology."

In the Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, James Hasting wrote: "In Indian religion, e.g., we meet the Trinitarian group of Braham, Siva, and Visnu; in Egyptian religion, the Trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Hourus . . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the new-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality." Which is "triadically represented."

Why did you tell me not to mention, "Before Abraham was, I am" ("I am" is what God said to Moses on Mt Sinai).

Because the fact that Jesus pbuh was present before Abraham pbuh is not the same as him saying "I am God, worship me!" What then would we say about Solomon pbuh (Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews 7:3), who were supposedly present not only before Abraham, but also before all of creation?

What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. (see Ps.89:20, Is. 45:1, 61:1, 1 Sam. 24:6, and Jer.1:5)?

Plus, not only Jesus who used the words I AM, if you want to compare between Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59… please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.

"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]." John 9:9.

St John tells us that Jesus' disciples worshipped Him (St John 24:52).

"Worship" is one of those English words which carry a double meaning. The one most popular among most people is "to pray to." This is the meaning that immediately springs into everyone's mind when they read this word. However, "worship" has another meaning. It also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" .

Now you may interpret "kneeling down before Jesus." As praying to him, in this case we will have to ask the Bible to explain further:

"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid."

1 Samuel 25:23-24

When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?. 

Similarly,

"Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."

2 Kings 4:37

"And his (Joseph's) brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants."

Genesis 50:18

"And there went over a ferry boat to carry over the king's household, and to do what he thought good. And Shimei the son of Gera fell down before the king, as he was come over Jordan;"

2 Samuel 19:18

And so on… what we really need to see is clear statement from the master himself, because if he was God, he would never hesitate to declare it plainly to avoid all this kind of confusion. If he was God of the OT, then why he don’t repeat himself EVEN ONCE as saying for example,“I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD, BEFORE ME THERE IS NO OTHER GOD, or I AM THE LORD BEFORE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR????

Wael, let me ask you a reverse question... if you were a Christian meditating on Scripture, how could you not know that Jesus is the Son of God?

I said it many times FHC, I don’t have a problem if you call Jesus the son of God, (bear in mind that son of God does not mean GOD HIMSELF)

This term (son of God) doesn’t literally mean ‘SON’, but means servant or righteous man of God, and as you know, not only Jesus was called with this name, there are plenty of other men in the Bible are called Sons of God.

So even if I was a Christian “open minded” I will not stuck to such term to understand that Jesus is God or literally God's son.

If you think that I'd foolishly break God's Commandments, then you don't know me as well as I thought you did!

Like St Thomas, Christians say "My Lord & My God" when they feel that He is near. I say it as soon as I wake up in the morning, when I hop in my car, before a meal, in unfortunate situations when I acknowledge His presence & ask for His divine assistance (like the other day after I'd just found out about your baby), etc.

Firstly I was joking :), secondly I was trying to explain that using such terms doesn’t really imply that Thomas was talking to Jesus pbuh directly or addressing him with those words.

Every Muslim I speak to has identical (word for word) objections/arguments. Where do you learn this stuff, man? LOL!

Same when we talk to Christians, they have the same exact arguments, the difference is that we have our Qur’an in its original text, unchangeable and avialable to everyone who would like to verify, but your Bibles are so many and each sect of Chritianity claims that their Bible is the truth. :conf06:

I'm challenging you to think for yourself!

Ok you win the challenge if this will make you happy :)

Big mistake! The Bible is not open to interpretation. No no no! Of course, God's not the author of confusion. It's Satan who tries to brainwash us.

I mean when reading the Bible you can never understand its verses the same way as others do, because most of its verses are not really clear and straight to the point.

If you're referring to St Matthew 10:5, Jesus sent His apostles out on their first mission they were to avoid preaching to the Gentiles/Samaritans for the time being & spread the good news amongst Jews. The change-over from the old to the new people of God is taking place. Jesus Christ & His followers (St Paul in particular later revealed the Gospel to non-Jews).

No I was referring to Mathew15:24 where he said: “I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”

As you know by now, I'm a perfectionist. I need to know EVERYTHING!!! Any idea why Allah would allow my parents to do that - turn me into a Christian?

Ms Picky :D , am not sure if Sister Muslimah already answered this question or not… in any case I will leave it to her insh a Allah.

Salam

Wael.

Faith Hope Charity · 02-02-2007, 03:37 AM

In the Name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.

May the peace of Christ be with you!

Alhamdulelah…

Hehe! You're off the hook... so is every other Muslim! I realized I was asking for too much. Oh well!

So ONLY death did separate The Father from the Son, so don’t say that both cannot be separated.

:banghead: I'm blaming it on a communication breakdown!

JESUS' DIVINITY WAS UNTOUCHED!!! GOD CANNOT BE SEPARATED - GOD IS ONE!!!

When the Son of God walked the earth, He didn't cease being God. He took on a human nature - distinct from His divine nature.

END OF STORY!!! From now on, I'll be directing you to a Catholic forum - LOL!

Believe me if your explanation was sufficient enough,I would've never mention these points again, still I cannot see that Father and Son are equal.

Sorry Mate :(

I'm trying my best!

You mean by email? Yes sure I will appreciate it.

Whoa! It's over 500 pages! Initially, I thought about mailing/posting you a copy. I have some audio tapes. I might be able to transfer them onto my PC & send them to you. Let me see what I can do for you, Mate!

Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it….From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity."

To put it nicely... I refuse to even dignify that with an answer!

Because the fact that Jesus pbuh was present before Abraham pbuh is not the same as him saying "I am God, worship me!" What then would we say about Solomon pbuh (Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews 7:3), who were supposedly present not only before Abraham, but also before all of creation?

"I AM" is used to refer to God only twice in the whole Bible... both times by God Himself.

Proverbs 8:22-31 Hehe! Solomon is talking about "Wisdom" not himself or another person.

Whoever read the Bible & gave you these quotes out of context is not doing you or himself any favours.

Hebrews 7:3 Um... this one's a bit complicated if you're unfamiliar with the tribe of Levi in the O/T (descendents from Abraham). The Levitical Priesthood was sustained by hereditary succession, whereas, the order of Melchizadek originated with him, not his ancestors. It's superior to that of the Levites & lasts forever because Jesus Christ, the eternal High Priest, belongs to it. If you read on in the chapter, it'll make more sense to you.

What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. (see Ps.89:20, Is. 45:1, 61:1, 1 Sam. 24:6, and Jer.1:5)?

I don't see the connection in these verses, but as for Jeremiah 1:5 - that's one of my favourites in the Old Testament! Do you know why? Because it forbids abortion :) :) :) God in all His Omniscience & Omnipotence creates us with a purpose in life. He handpicks (so to speak) each & every soul that's brought forth into the world. Moves me to tears :wub:

Plus, not only Jesus who used the words I AM, if you want to compare between Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59… please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.

Again... context! Read those verses YOURSELF & stop consulting Islamic websites - LOL! What was Jesus Christ claiming when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM"? Similarly, God told Moses to say, "I AM sent me to you". Jesus' response that He is the true Son of God was considered blasphemes by the Sandhedrin & consequently, He was condemned to death, because they didn't like what they were hearing. Do you honestly think that the beggar was indicating that he's God when asked if he's the beggar? Haha! I don't think so, Wael! I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt as I'm assuming you haven't actually read the verses in their entire passages :D

"St John tells us that Jesus' disciples worshipped Him (St John 24:52)."

"Worship" is one of those English words which carry a double meaning. The one most popular among most people is "to pray to." This is the meaning that immediately springs into everyone's mind when they read this word. However, "worship" has another meaning. It also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" .

Now you may interpret "kneeling down before Jesus." As praying to him, in this case we will have to ask the Bible to explain further:

I've caught you! Now I know for sure that you're not consulting the Bible because I just noticed that I accidentally quoted the wrong Evangelist & you didn't pick it up - LOL! It's St Luke's Gospel not St John's.

Wael, please provide with real responses! If I want answers from an Islamic Apologist, I'd visit their websites myself. You said you were trying to understand, but it's obvious you don't really care.

If you read the passages, you'll realize the difference between worshipping God & showing reverence through an act of humility.

And so on… what we really need to see is clear statement from the master himself, because if he was God, he would never hesitate to declare it plainly to avoid all this kind of confusion. If he was God of the OT, then why he don’t repeat himself EVEN ONCE as saying for example,“I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD, BEFORE ME THERE IS NO OTHER GOD, or I AM THE LORD BEFORE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR????

When you study the Old & New Testaments without an ulterior motive, it becomes crystal clear that Jesus is the Son of God. I recommend you buy a Bible with Catholic commentary to assist you in interpreting verses. Otherwise learn Hebrew & Greek & read the ancient manuscripts!

You know, I can't picture Jesus Christ explicitly bragging about His divinity. Think of it in this way... I can walk around on a day to day basis declaring that I'm a Christian, but I don't, because I'd prefer people associate Christianity with my actions, not my words. Get it?

I said it many times FHC, I don’t have a problem if you call Jesus the son of God, (bear in mind that son of God does not mean GOD HIMSELF)

The Son of God is the Son of God. A son of God is a son of God. Pretty self-explanatory & not confusing one bit!

Please keep in mind what I said ages ago... Jesus is the Son of God... but... God is not Jesus! God is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Very important!

your Bibles are so many and each sect of Chritianity claims that their Bible is the truth.

Hehe! Don't worry, it confuses me too :confused_smile:

Ok you win the challenge if this will make you happy

It's not a competition ;)

No I was referring to Mathew15:24 where he said: “I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”

Okay! My bad! They're pretty similar verses. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant with the Jews & established a New Covenant with the world - all of God's people. The woman featured in the text you mentioned is a Canaanite. I don't expect you to know what I'm talking about - hehe!

Ms Picky, am not sure if Sister Muslimah already answered this question or not… in any case I will leave it to her insh a Allah.

Okie dokie! You seem to be more interested in questioning my beliefs than expressing your own - hahaha!

It's all good!

Take it easy, bro!

God bless.

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