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wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 12-20-2006, 06:02 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

"You are totally going against the Catholic catechism…"

Never!

doesnt seems so!!

Hehe! God can't die!

Therefore Jesus is not God.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, assumed a human nature, therefore, He experience death in His humanity.

Therefore Jesus is not God.

There is one God with one set of attributes (Quiescent Attributes - Eternity, Immensity & Omnipresence, & Immutability. Operative Attributes - Knowledge & Will. Other Attributes - Power, Holiness, Majesty, Wisdom & Goodness, Justice, providence, Truth, Mercy).

same as what we believe, the question is who is this God? 

Jesus isn't ignorant of the hour of the second coming, but rather, He cannot reveal it, neither can men or angels, because reserved for the Father only to announce.

I don’t know if the word “KNOW” means KNOW or means CANNOT REVEAL in your language?? That is redicilus, you are trying to explain the Bible the way you desire… the verse is crystal clear and doesn’t need anyone interpretation.. he DID NOT KNOW, NOT that he knew but cannot reveal.

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but
the Father." (Mark, 13:32)

ONLY the father knows about that day, but the son have no knowledge at all regarding this day.

Don't ever believe in anything you're unsure of & I encourage you to keep studying until it all makes sense to you!

Who told you that I am unsure of what I presented or that i might believe in something that is vague?

Read it carefully! It says: the only begotten Son of God as opposed to the only [/b]begotten son of God.

Huh?? The only begotten Son of God is opposed to “The only begotten son of God”? I can only see letter S capital in your first quotation and the second one is small, is this what you mean?

Well, then you must know that in the Greek language (as well as Arabic and Hebrew) there is no differentiation between a capital and small letters as in the languages of the Western countries today; then how come your translators have come up with this interpolation? They openly played fast and loose when translating even the Bible. For example:

" In whom the god (the Devil) of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not "2 Cor 4:4

"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. " Exodus 7:1

Now you may also compare the above with JOHN 1:1, where the Christians have used capital "G"'s and "W"'s when referring to Jesus where in fact the original language have no such capital letters.

Dude, throw out that dodgy version of the Bible & buy one with the following translation... "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him" (RSV).

Wow… be careful FHC, we have some protestant guests :)

it is also strange that you are asking me to obtain the RSV while it is missing 7 whole books as compare to the Cathoic version?

Anyway, I do have the RSV… actually 2 of them, now it seems that you are using the Revised Standard Version of 1952, where the word begotten was removed (from the KJV), now I’ve got another Revised Standard Version of 1971, where the word Begotten was re-inserted once again!!

now you tell me which version should we follow?

whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

here is what Jesus himself said about eternal life.

Luke 10:25-28:

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, what is written in the law? How readest Thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and Thou shalt live. 

These verses tell us that the inheritance of eternal life is for anyone who believes and worships no other God, but the One True God. these verses WHICH WERE SAID BY JESUS HIMSELF never mentioned anything about , that whoever believes in him (THE SON) should not perish but have eternal life. Luke 10:25-28 agrees with Matthew 19:16-17 which says;

"And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he (Jesus) said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? – No one is good but One that is, God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments." 

Indeed! Jesus sent out a message to the Jews which echoed 2 Kings 2:9-12 & Ruth 1:16 (Your people shall be my people, and your God my God). The Father of Jesus will now become the Father of the diciples because, once ascended, Jesus can give the Spirit that comes from the Father & they can be reborn as God's sons. That's why He calls them "my brothers."

St Athanasius (4th Century AD) is the author of one of my favourite quotes... "The Son of God became the Son of Man so that the sons of man may become sons of God."

What you just said doesn’t refute the fact that Jesus did have a God who is more powerful than him, and that’s why peter declared that Jesus is only A MAN approved of God with wonders, miracles and signs WHICH GOD DID BY HIM, So God was only doing his Job through Jesus, but that doesn’t mean that Jesus himself was a God.

Jesus was simply quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

So you mean he is quoting from OT but he doesn’t really mean what he was saying? That is lame, because Jesus pbuh did pray to God in many situations which can be found in the Bible, and since he needed a God to rely on then he is in no way can be a God.

I'm extremely grateful to this forum for giving me the opportunity to learn & share. I'm glad there's mutual respect between us. Insha'Allah one day Muslims & Christians can co-exist throughout the world in peace, love & harmony I admire your passion for Islam.

I will definitely echo what you just said. And once again you are most welcome to learn and ask about Islam.

I should've mentioned this yesterday... Having a picture/statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary in your house (or any other Saint) isn't a sin. It's just like hanging family photos on the wall & acknowledging the people in them.

This is the beginning of committing the unforgivable polytheistic sin, now you are saying that there is no problem if you keep images and statues (whether at your home or in the Church), afterwards you might also say, there is no problem if I bow down as a sign of respect to the blessed Mary, there is no problem if I touch the images, there is no problem if I honor her through this image… all of these are acts of worship. You do worship her images but you cant admit it.

You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I The Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and keep My Commandments." RSV

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; KJV

I hope you don’t tell me to throw away both translations.

The only thing Mary can do for Christians is intercede for us. 

Any reference from the Bible?

St John 2:1 (Wedding at Cana).

There is no mention of any intercession in John 2:1? Do you mean because she said that they do not have wine, asking him to make wine?

So in actual fact, we aren't praying to Mary, we're asking her to pray for us

Is she alive today to pray for you?

Yes! In Heaven (Revelation 12:1-18). I can barely interpret the book of Revelation due to its apocolyptic & symbolic language, so if you're going to attempt it, have a copy of the Catechism handy - just a helpful tip

There are millions of pious people living in heaven!! That doesn’t give you the right to ask them to pray for you, why? can’t God accept your prayers and listen to you directly if you are sincere?

Do you have right to call her the mother of God during Rosary? Does the Bible give you the right to call her with this title? any reference from the Bible ?

St Luke 1:41-45. The Bible never contradicts reason. It took me a while but I kind of worked out this mystery using logic.

Oh please, Please… do you mean because Elizabeth called her “the mother of my Lord” ? lord does not mean God, Abraham was also called lord in the Bible by his wife, yet no one worshipped him.

But there's more to it, Wael! By dying for our sins, Jesus destroyed death & by His resurrection, He has restored our life. The New Covenant means that the gates of Heaven have now been opened.

I really don’t care; I care about how simple salvation and forgiveness are according to the Bible without any need of sacrifice sinless person to save the sinners!!!.

In His humanity... Yes! In His divinity... the Son is equal to the Father! Jesus' humanity & divinity were united through the Incarnation. Jesus Christ is a Divine Person (Son of God) with a fully divine nature & a fully human nature. True God & True Man!

Same as you are telling me that I have a friend who is short & tall man!!! If you believe that such person exist who is tall and short at the same time, then maybe we can consider to believe in a God who is God and a man at the same time, which is impossible.

Jesus is God (but remember it's improper to say that God is Jesus).

What an amazing statement. Jesus is God, yet God is not Jesus.

Anyway, according to my little knowledge, Christians believe that Jesus SHARES THE FATHER’S NATURE but he is not the Father, and That HE (JESUS)

IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE THE FATHER but he is not really the Father". Now numerous quotations from the Bible can be given just to prove that Jesus neither SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD, he therefore can never be God. if we just replaced the name Jesus with “God” and quoted some verses from the Bible the picture will be crystal clear, and we have full right to do that since you are claiming that Jesus is God. So let us try. For example:

"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ/God, our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3)

"The generations of Jesus/God, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1)

And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the Child/God, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21)

"Jesus/God was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew, 2:1)

"Jesus/God was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3),

"and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew, 13:55)

"And Jesus/God, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14)

"Shoes of Jesus/God" (Luke, 3:16), "Garments and coat of Jesus/God" (John, 19:23)

"And immediately the spirit driveth him/God into the wilderness. And he/God was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13)

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE BIBLE ALSO SAID THAT TRUE GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED WITH EVIL 

"God cannot be tempted with evil,neither tempteth he any man." (James,1:13)

"And when he/God had fasted forty days and forty nights, he/God was

afterward an hungered." (Matthew 4:2),

"Now in the morning as he/God returned into the city, he/God hungered." (Matthew, 21:18),

"and on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he/God was hungry." (Mark, 11:12)

I still can go on and on, but according to the quotations of the Bible given above and many more was not quoted, you can easily conclude that that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He is, therefore, definitely NOT God! 

Sad but true! Hey, just so you know... before the Reformation (16th Century AD), all Christians held the same beliefs (but there were 2 traditions - East & West). Unfortunately, today there are approximately 50,000 different Christian denominations worldwide all teaching whatever they want - it's ridiculous! I guarantee you that the Catholic Church will stand the test of time! It's the only one that constantly gets attacked & targeted by Satan throughout the ages. Why? Because it's the true Church of Christ Jesus!

They also say that they are the True Church of Christ, they are also attacked by other denominations, and many Catholics have lost their faith recently specially after watching the popular movie (the passion of Christ).

:) have a nice day

Salam

Wael.

Faith Hope Charity · (This post was last modified: 12-20-2006, 09:28 AM by Faith Hope Charity.)

In the name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.

May the peace of our Lord & Saviour, Jesus Christ, be with you!

Hehe! God can't die!

Therefore Jesus is not God.

The Son of God humbly took on human flesh to show us the true meaning of ours. He suffered & died for the world in His humanity, however, His divinity was untouched (obviously).

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, assumed a human nature, therefore, He experience death in His humanity.

Therefore Jesus is not God.

Nonsense!

There is one God with one set of attributes (Quiescent Attributes - Eternity, Immensity & Omnipresence, & Immutability. Operative Attributes - Knowledge & Will. Other Attributes - Power, Holiness, Majesty, Wisdom & Goodness, Justice, providence, Truth, Mercy).

same as what we believe, the question is who is this God?

Wael, you & I both believe in Allah - the God of Abraham. To Christians Allah is God the Father. I'm happy to just leave it at that :) As long as you're a good Muslim, Mate, I have no reason to argue with you!

Jesus isn't ignorant of the hour of the second coming, but rather, He cannot reveal it, neither can men or angels, because reserved for the Father only to announce.

I don’t know if the word “KNOW” means KNOW or means CANNOT REVEAL in your language?? That is redicilus, you are trying to explain the Bible the way you desire… the verse is crystal clear and doesn’t need anyone interpretation.. he DID NOT KNOW, NOT that he knew but cannot reveal.

The Greek word used in the original text is "eido" which implies a different tense (make known) when used in several other biblical verses, e.g. 1 Corinthians 2:2.

I was reluctant to mention this yesterday because it's diving too deep into Theology & it's totally irrelevant to that particular verse, but you probably should know that Jesus Christ possessed omniscient knowledge in His divinity & finite knowledge as a man (like the rest of us). I know it sounds far fetched, but please just take my word for it.

Huh?? The only begotten Son of God is opposed to “The only begotten son of God”? I can only see letter S capital in your first quotation and the second one is small, is this what you mean?

LOOK AT IT CAREFULLY! "Begotten Son of God" (which is the title given to the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity) as opposed to, "begotten son of God".

Dude, throw out that dodgy version of the Bible & buy one with the following translation... "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him" (RSV). 

Wow… be careful FHC, we have some protestant guests :)

Oops! Sorry! I honestly don't mean to offend anyone. Protstants are my Christian brethren - I got nothing but love for them ;) Wanna hear something funny? The worst translation of the Bible is actually a CATHOLIC one (NRSV). Some liberal Catholics put it together not too long ago. It's the only one that the Vatican has condemned!

it is also strange that you are asking me to obtain the RSV while it is missing 7 whole books as compare to the Cathoic version? 

now you tell me which version should we follow?

Um... when we're discussing Catholicism, I'd appreciate it if you refer to the Ignatius or Navarre Bible (RSV - CATHOLIC EDITION) which is the closest to St Jerome's Latin Vulgate (4th Century AD). The Catholic version hasn't been tampered with. Our RSV is complete with all 73 books :)

These verses tell us that the inheritance of eternal life is for anyone who believes and worships no other God, but the One True God. these verses WHICH WERE SAID BY JESUS HIMSELF never mentioned anything about , that whoever believes in him (THE SON) should not perish but have eternal life. Luke 10:25-28 agrees with Matthew 19:16-17 which says; 

"And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he (Jesus) said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? – No one is good but One that is, God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."

When Jesus told the lawyer to worship God, He was referring to the One & Only God WHICH CONSISTS OF THREE DIVINE PERSONS! Why would Jesus say worship the Son? God is not the Son, but the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

"Why do you call me good?" As far as I know this is the token verse that many Christians use to prove to Muslims that Jesus is God. The Scribe called Jesus "good". Jesus responded by stating that only God is good, therefore, He is truly God. Personally, I would rather Christians have strong faith rather than heavy proof.

St Athanasius (4th Century AD) is the author of one of my favourite quotes... "The Son of God became the Son of Man so that the sons of man may become sons of God."

What you just said doesn’t refute the fact that Jesus did have a God who is more powerful than him, and that’s why peter declared that Jesus is only MAN approved of God with wonders, miracles and signs WHICH GOD DID BY HIM, So God was only doing his Job through Jesus, but that doesn’t mean that Jesus himself was a God.

I always throw that quote in wherever I can - it's so profound!

Jesus is truly man, no doubt about it! But He is truly God too! It's complicated. When Jesus said "My God & your God" to St Mary Magdalene, he was drawing on O/T passages which speak about God reconciling Himself to the world. Jesus, who is the Messiah & King of the Jews, represents Israel (God's chosen people), however, Jesus didn't only save Jews, He saved Gentiles (sinners, non-Jews) too, so now the God of the 12 tribes of Israel is the God of all. We can now call upon our Heavenly Father as Jesus did because we share in the Divine Sonship of God (through the incarnation). Like I said, it's complicated! Let's stick to the basics for now.

Jesus was simply quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

So you mean he is quoting from OT but he doesn’t really mean what he was saying? That is lame, because Jesus pbuh did pray to God in many situations which can be found in the Bible, and since he needed a God to rely on then he is in no way can be a God.

He was conversing with Jews... why wouldn't He quote from the O/T? He did many times. If you were to ask me what the 1st Commandment is, I would say "Our God" too (although you're not Christian), because that's the literal way it was written down.

Jesus often communicated with our Father in Heaven. Perfectly fine!

And once again you are most welcome to learn and ask about Islam.

Thanks! If only everybody could join this forum. I think Islam is very misunderstood.

You do worship her images but you cant admit it. 

To worship Our Lady would violate the first commandment. She, herself, would be devastaed if we worshipped her.

Catechism, paragraph 2131 - The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it. The honor paid to sacred images is a respectful veneration, not the adoration due to God alone.

There is no mention of any intercession in John 2:1? Do you mean because she said that they do not have wine, asking him to make wine?

You answered your first question with your second one ;)

There are millions of pious people living in heaven!! That doesn’t give you the right to ask them to pray for you, why? can’t God accept your prayers and listen to you directly if you are sincere? 

Of course you can pray directly to God. You don't have to call on the help of Saints if you don't want to.

Oh please, Please… do you mean because Elizabeth called her “the mother of my Lord” ? lord does not mean God, Abraham was also called lord in the Bible by his wife, yet no one worshipped him. 

"And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? ... Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord'."

The Blessed virgin Mary is the new Arc of the Covenant (she carries God's presence within her). A quick breakdown...

2 Samuel 6:2 - "Then David and all the people who were with him set out for Baala of Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which bears the name of the LORD of hosts enthroned above the cherubim."

Luke 1:39 - "During those days Mary set out and travelled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah."

2 Samuel 6:9 - "David feared the LORD that day and said, ‘How can the ark of the LORD come to me?’ "

Luke 1:43 - "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

2 Samuel 6:11 - "The ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite for three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and his whole house."

Luke 1:56 - "Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home."

2 Samuel 6: 14, 16 - "Then David … came dancing before the LORD … As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Saul’s daughter Michal looked down through the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, and she despised him in her heart."

Luke 1:44 - "For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy."

I really don’t care; I care about how simple salvation and forgiveness are according to the Bible without any need of sacrifice sinless person to save the sinners!!!

Wait a second... Catholics don't believe that we are automatically taken up to Heaven when we die. We most certainly have to make sacrifices & try to live a sinless life (& continually ask for God's forgiveness) in order to be worthy of Heaven. Jesus Christ has offered us all salvation. It is now up to each individual to accept or reject His invitation. God made it possible through the life, death & resurrection of His Son. We make it happen by allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us there.

What an amazing statement. Jesus is God, yet God is not Jesus.

I repeat... Jesus is God (Incarnate). God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit - simple if you ask me!

Now numerous quotations from the Bible can be given just to prove that Jesus neither SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD, he therefore can never be God. if we just replaced the name Jesus with “God” and quoted some verses from the Bible the picture will be crystal clear, and we have full right to do that since you are claiming that Jesus is God. So let us try.

Wael, please remember that Jesus Christ is fully God & fully Man - He possess 2 natures (human, divine). The verses you brought up testify that Jesus Christ is the fulfilment of the Old Testament prophesies (the seed of David, Abraham's descendent, a Jewish Messiah, born in the town of David, a humble King, who will defeat Satan).

They also say that they are the True Church of Christ 

Yet, they can't trace their origin back to Christ or the Apostles. You can view a list of Popes from St Peter the Apostle (first Pope), to St Benedict XVI (our current Pope) here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

and many Catholics have lost their faith recently specially after watching the popular movie (the passion of Christ).

That's Hollywood for you!

 :) have a nice day

Thanks! I was working all day (my co-worker is Muslim - we get along great!). Hope you had/have a nice day too :)

wel_mel_2 · 12-20-2006, 10:44 AM

Bismillah:

i am not going to repeat what i've said earlier, i already presented my view point and your replies are totally respected but yet rejected.

Anyway, to summarize what we have discussed so far I would say that:

1- You believe in a God who is consists of 3 distinct persons, you cant call each one separately as God, but altogether they are One God, in other words, Trinity. (which I truly and honestly do not understand)

2- You also believe in Allah, who is the God of Abraham (by the way, thanks for admitting this point as some of our Christians friends on this board were strongly against this fact that the term Allah is indeed used by Arab Christians and found in their Arabic Bible).

3- You have shown very unique attitude (unlike most Christians) where you said that being a good Muslim is more important than converting to Christianity. (or if I understand you correctly.

4- You believe that Jesus have the knowledge of the last day. (but your explanation was not convincing so far since the Bible tells us that he can do NOTHING of his own)

5- Regarding our arguments about the word “begotten”, you don’t believe that Jesus is the begotten son of God, but you believe that he is the only son of God. (my understanding of the terms SON and FATHER is totally different from what you have been told. “we can discuss this matter later”

6- You do admit that many versions of the Bible are interpolated / corrupted and you have advised us to use the RSV - CATHOLIC EDITION (in which I will examine it soon, but I will not ignore other versions since the same claim is made by other Christians defending their version of the Bible)

7- On the other thread of “Divorce in Islam” your solution for unsuccessful marriage was separation but not divorce (but I’ve already pointed out the danger of separation and hot it is terrible solution which may lead to sin i.e fornication.

8- You believe that Jesus is both God and human at the same time (so you do agree on the concept of tall & short man at the same time). As of me I can’t get it.

9- You admitted that the worship of Mary is wrong and worship due to God alone, but at the same time you don’t mind to honor Mary through her images (acts/forms of worship) but you don’t really worship her. (kind of confusing me)

10- You believe that Mary can intercede between man and God and you supported your claim by quoting John 2:1 where she asked Jesus to turn water into wine ( to me this is not intercession at all. This we may call it request.

11- You admitted that you can pray directly to God, but you don’t mind to ask the dead to pray for you if require.

12- You don’t mind to call Mary the mother of God, since someone else call her the mother of my lord and as we said earlier the term Lord does not mean God, it means master, teacher and even Prophet Abraham was called Lord by his wife in the Bible.

I cant remember more points nowr, but the above was the basic. Anyway no arguments shall be added insha'Allah. I understand your views and well respected.

Waiting for more questions about Islam.

Salam

Wael.

***Muslimah*** · 12-24-2006, 07:10 PM

Bismillah

Quote:Wael, I joined this forum to learn about Islam.

This is the statement that settled everything, since u made your intention quite clear, pls feel free to ask questions, and I think you ought to be respected in this FHC. I m sure that u know enough about your faith that u dont need us to argue with u.

Thus do focus on what u learn in Islam, start as much threads as u want, and Insh aAllah we will be trying our best to reply.

waiting for a flood of thread... :)

***Muslimah*** · 12-24-2006, 07:45 PM

Bismillah

FHC one of the questions, my dear brother Wael :) decided to leave it unattended:

Does Islam teach that hell is eternal?

I leave it to somebody else to answer insh a’Allah.

See, the issue of Hell is really massive.

For instance, Allah, may He be Glorified, Say:

19:71

"There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished."

Now to explain this, we need a long post, are you ready, ok i know u r :)

the underlined sentence refers to something called Sirat, in the Day of Judgement, we will have to pass over it, according to the deeds of each given person, the pace of passing will vary, some evern shall not be able to make. Thus, shall fall into Hell.

The eternity part: To be brief, those who didnt believe in Allah according to Islamic monotheism which is the only religion accepted to Allah starting from Adam till Mohamed prayer and peace be upon all of them, shall be eternal in hell. Otherwise, Muslims dwelling in hell shall vary according to their deeds. I mean, each Muslim, according to the deeds and with the Mercy of Allah Shall serve a time in Hell, in some cases, there are those who shall be pardoned totally and just go straight to Heaven, may Allah Makes us among them. While there is a third group who shall remain in neutral site till Allah Judges their situation.

Thus, eternity in hell shall be destined to those who dont believe, as in:

"Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidences and the guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers.* Except those who repent and do righteous deeds, and openly declare (the truth which they concealed). These, I will accept their repentance. And I am the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.* Verily, those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, it is they on whom is the Curse of Allah and of the angels and of humankind, combined.* They will abide therein (under the curse in Hell), their punishment will neither be lightened, nor will they be reprieved." (Quran 2: 159-162)

With all due respect to the translator, the underlined part literally means abide eternally.

This is just one example, I dont want to flood you with Quranic verses.

Faith Hope Charity · 12-25-2006, 01:40 PM

Salam Sister Muslimah,

Thanks for reviving this thread :)

I re-read Wael's first post & now I'm more confused than ever :confused_smile:

Quote:To be brief, those who didnt believe in Allah according to Islamic monotheism which is the only religion accepted to Allah starting from Adam till Mohamed prayer and peace be upon all of them, shall be eternal in hell.

Where do I stand? Am I cursed (according to Islam)? Have I received & rejected Muhammed's (PBUH) message?

Quote:whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good, - He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

Would Blessed Mother Teresa (who worked among poor Muslims) be accepted for her good deeds although she lacked the Islamic faith?

Quote:Let me first clarify that it is not up to us to decide who is going paradise and who is going Hell, it is going to be Allah’s decision only

Can we possibly know the answers to my above questions in this life or must we wait until Judgement Day?

Quote:Sirat, in the Day of Judgement, we will have to pass over it, according to the deeds of each given person, the pace of passing will vary, some evern shall not be able to make

So, according to Islam, what's the bottom line for devout Christians like myself?

Do you belong to the brand of Islam that believes Jesus Christ will return before the end of time & convert all His followers to Islam?

Thank you so much! This is extremely interesting :)

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