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khalilah0312 · 10-07-2006, 03:06 PM

As Salaamu Waalaikum

This is a reminder that not only new shahadah's can benefit from but all muslim and muslimah's as well so insha'allah this touches EVERYONE!

THe Three Groups Of People On The Day Of Judgement

1. The Disbelievers---Those whom disregarded Allah (Subhan Allah Wa Ta'ala) Quran and Sunnah and their abode will be the Jahanam (Hellfire)

2. The Muslim's---Those whom submits to the will of Allah (Subhan Allah Wa Ta'ala) but lacks Iman (Faith) and faces possibilities of the Jahanam ( Hellfire)

BUT because of their Iman (Faith) they will be saved and go to Jannah (Paradise) by Allah (Subhan Allah Wa Ta'ala) permission and mercy

3. The Muminun's (The Believer's)----Those whom has fullfilled ALL obligations of Iman (Faith) and will go directly to Jannah ( Paradise) wihout punishment

May Allah ( Subhan Allah Wa Ta'ala) grant us all to become Mumin & Mumina as those he Blessed to be before us ( Salaf--- Predecessors) Ameen :D

Faith Hope Charity · 12-14-2006, 03:44 AM

Peace!

What category do Christians fall into?

Does Islam teach that hell is eternal?

When is the day of judgement according to Islam?

What happened to the billions of people who lived prior to Islam?

Thanks in advance for your answers :)

God bless you & yours.

Faith Hope Charity ... Openness Acceptance Equality

wel_mel_2 · 12-16-2006, 02:33 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:Peace!

Peace to you too FHC. :)

Quote:What category do Christians fall into?

Let me first clarify that it is not up to us to decide who is going paradise and who is going Hell, it is going to be Allah’s decision only… The Muslims' duty is to convey to all mankind the message of Islam, the message of mercy sent through Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him as a confirmation of all prophetic messages. We are not appointed as judges. Therefore, we must be forewarned against the temptation of saying which person goes to heaven or hell.

Allah says in The Qur’an

16:125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

Concerning the arguments of various religious groups as to who is saved, Allah settles the dispute by saying in chapter 2 Verse 111-112

“And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful.”, “Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good, - He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve”.

Furthermore, the Qur’an states that the Prophet Muhammad is the last and final messenger sent to the whole of mankind; he has come to affirm the perfect truth that all Prophets and Messengers had proclaimed before him. The Qur’an confirms, guards, and preserves this pure message free from all human tampering and alterations. And so it is the duty of everyone to respond to his message:

Qur’an 7.158

Say: (O Muhammad) "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

Therefore, if someone did not receive the message of Muhammad, he will definitely be judged by whatever message of truth he has received from Allah.

And so, I repeat that we should not judge as to who is going to paradise or hell. In this regard we can do no better than repeat the words of Prophet Jesus peace be upon him who is quoted in the Qur’an as saying concerning those who worshipped him:

If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, You, only You, are the August, the Wise.
 Qur’an 5: 118

Hope this answer your question insha’Allah.

Quote:Does Islam teach that hell is eternal?

I leave it to somebody else to answer insha’Allah.

Quote:When is the day of judgement according to Islam?

They ask thee about the (final) Hour - when will be its appointed time? Say: 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone)
: None but He can reveal as to when it will occur. Heavy were its burden through the heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden will it come to you.' They ask thee as if thou Wert eager in search thereof: Say: 'The knowledge thereof is with God (alone), but most men know not.' (The Quran, 7:187)"

Verily the Hour is coming - My design is to keep it hidden - for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavour.
(The Quran, 20:15)"

"They say: 'When will this promise come to pass, if ye are telling the truth?' If only the Unbelievers knew (the time) when they will not be able to ward off the fire from their faces, nor yet from their backs, and (when) no help can reach them! Nay, it may come to them all of a sudden and confound them: no power will they have then to avert it, nor will they (then) get respite.
(The Quran, 21:38-40)"

"Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with God (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with God is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things).
(The Quran, 31:34)"

"Men ask thee concerning the Hour: Say, 'The knowledge thereof is with God (alone)': and what will make thee understand?- perchance the Hour is nigh!
(The Quran, 33:63)"

Quote:What happened to the billions of people who lived prior to Islam?

Nor do We punish until We have sent a messenger. 
Qur’an 17: 15

The Islamic viewpoint is that to every nation was sent a Messenger to guide his people. The important matter was the concept of Tawheed i.e., in oneness of Allah. The secondary matter was the Law which kept changing from tribe to tribe and nation to nation. Allah, the most high, alone knows what is good for His creation. As it is mentioned in the Qur'ân:

And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. 
(Qur'ân 10:47)

And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghut (all false deities, etc. i.e., do not worship Taghut besides Allah)." Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth). 
(Qur'ân 16:36)

Some of these Messengers are mentioned in the Qur'ân by Allah and some of them are not as the Qur'ân says:

And, indeed We have sent Messengers before you (O Muhammad(P)); of some of them We have related to you their story and of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah. So, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost. 
(Qur'ân 40:78)

So those who follow the messengers who came before Muhammad PBUH were also saved. Insha'Allah.

and Allah knows best.

Quote:Thanks in advance for your answers :)

You are most welcome :)

Salam

Wael.

***Muslimah*** · 12-16-2006, 09:50 AM

Bismillah

salam FHC,

Just to be more specific regarding the position of Nasarah (christians) according to Quran, check this link:

http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=2553&hl=

BTW, this web site is quite rich, you may search around and Insh a Allah u will find a lot.

Insh a Allah i will come later with more.

Faith Hope Charity · 12-17-2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:Bismillah

salam FHC,

Just to be more specific regarding the position of Nasarah (christians) according to Quran, check this link:

http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=2553&hl=

BTW, this web site is quite rich, you may search around and Insh a Allah u will find a lot.

Insh a Allah i will come later with more.

Peace Muslimah,

Thanks for the link :)

I haven't finished reading the whole thread so I'll hold off on my comments for now. But just quickly, I thought I'd clear up a few misconceptions. I'm not saying I'm above the Koran, but all I can conclude from your Koranic quotes is that the true meaning of words are lost due to translation.

For instance...

Quote:"They say: (God) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"

Christians believe that the Father begot the Son. We do not say that God begot a son, therefore making 2 gods.

Quote:"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary."

It's improper to say that God is Christ. Christians believe that God is Father, Son & Holy Spirit. It is acceptable to say that the "Father is God", "the Son is God" & "the Holy Spirit is God" but not the other way around. We cannot say that "God is the Father", "God is the Son" or "God is the Holy Spirit." Do you know what I mean?

Quote:"but said Christ: O children of Israel worship God"

Christ always referred to God the Father as "Father". Christ taught us to worship the Father, through the Son, in the Spirit.

Quote:"O Jesus the son of Mary didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?"

Christians don't worship Mary. Christ never commanded anything of the sort. Mary is honored & venerated but not worshipped as she isn't divine!

Muslimah, you may want to place this post in the other thread. I'll leave it to your discretion :)

Peace!

Faith Hope Charity · 12-17-2006, 12:30 AM

Peace Wael!

Thank you so very much for the info. I'm learning quite a bit :)

Quote:Let me first clarify that it is not up to us to decide who is going paradise and who is going Hell, it is going to be Allah’s decision only… The Muslims' duty is to convey to all mankind the message of Islam, the message of mercy sent through Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him as a confirmation of all prophetic messages. We are not appointed as judges. Therefore, we must be forewarned against the temptation of saying which person goes to heaven or hell.
Therefore, if someone did not receive the message of Muhammad, he will definitely be judged by whatever message of truth he has received from Allah.

So how do Muslims such as yourself feel about leaders who promise their members abundant rewards in Paradise if they become suicide bombers, etc.??? It's a case of humans playing the role of Allah, right?

Also, if Allah is the judge of all humankind, why do Islamic authorities implement harsh penalties for "crimes" such as proselytizing & apostasy? I can understand why we'd be inclined to imprison a rapist or a murderer, but practicing the faith of your choice is not a threat to the common good, so shouldn't we allow everybody the freedom to belong to whatever religion they like & let Allah have the ultimate say? Especially considering non-Muslims are eligible for Heaven too so it seems :)

Quote:Concerning the arguments of various religious groups as to who is saved.

As far as Catholics are concerned, we have a similar doctrine to yours :) The only difference is we believe the means of salvation have been granted to all peoples by the merits of Jesus Christ through the Incarnation & Paschal Mystery.

God bless.

Faith Hope Charity... Openness Tolerance Equality

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 12-18-2006, 03:34 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:Christians believe that the Father begot the Son. We do not say that God begot a son, therefore making 2 gods.

And who is the Father in Christian terminology? You believe that God the Father, and God the son and God the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, although you are calling “ALL OF THEM” One, but yet each one have got separate personality.

According to the catholic creed, indeed they say that Jesus “The son” is the only begotten son of God, which means that God has begotten a son, same as what the Qur’an describes… so how can you say that “we do not say that God begot a son”???

Here is the Catholic Creed.

Quote:We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
,

So indeed the Christians do say that God begets a son, and this is exactly what the Qur’an says.

Quote:It's improper to say that God is Christ. Christians believe that God is Father, Son & Holy Spirit. It is acceptable to say that the "Father is God", "the Son is God" & "the Holy Spirit is God" but not the other way around. We cannot say that "God is the Father", "God is the Son" or "God is the Holy Spirit." Do you know what I mean?

I don’t really understand… all what I can say is that the Qur’anic verse referring to those who worship Jesus as God, and you know that almost all Christians do worship Jesus pbuh as God.

Quote:Christ always referred to God the Father as "Father".

he also referred to God as “My God”. Which indicate that he "Jesus" was not God.

Quote:Christ taught us to worship the Father, through the Son, in the Spirit.

If you are referring to John 14:6 then I do not see where does he teach you to worship the Father through him?? Because it was his job ‘as a prophet’ to guide his nation to the correct path and so if no one follow him during his mission, then he or she will not be guided to the true path (Heaven). This is what he meant and this is how I understand this verse, and so did many other Christians.

Quote:Christians don't worship Mary.

Indeed the Catholic do worship Mary, (am not talking about honoring Mary because we Muslims do honor her as well) I am talking about worshipping her, praying to her to forgive sins, bowing down to her images, touching them to gain blessing, Rosary, and other practices which I’ve seen with my own eyes when I was in the Philippines, and during my discussion with Catholics. So the verse is talking about those who worship Mary. Plus accorinding to the Catholic creed, Mary was also "God the son" incarnate, and that’s why many people do worship her:

Quote:light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man
.

So, if you personally don’t worship her, then we Muslims should congratulate you for this.

Quote:So how do Muslims such as yourself feel about leaders who promise their members abundant rewards in Paradise if they become suicide bombers, etc.??? It's a case of humans playing the role of Allah, right?

Which leaders are you talking about? Could you name some?

Quote:Also, if Allah is the judge of all humankind, why do Islamic authorities implement harsh penalties for "crimes" such as proselytizing & apostasy?

Here are 2 links covering apostasy issue.

http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showt...425&hl=apostasy

http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showt...752&hl=apostasy

Please don’t forget that death penalty was prescribed for apostasy in the Bible too 

Also here is a very informative link by Dr Yusuf Al Qaradawi speaking on apostasy.

Dr Yusuf Al Qaradawi on Apostasy

Quote:As far as Catholics are concerned, we have a similar doctrine to yours The only difference is we believe the means of salvation have been granted to all peoples by the merits of Jesus Christ through the Incarnation & Paschal Mystery.

I’ve been asking Christians to show me one single verse quoted by Jesus pbuh himself to support the above claim… but I got none…

I mean where he (Jesus pbuh) said that ‘Salvation were granted to ALL people by my merits or through my blood'

Salam

Wael.

Faith Hope Charity · 12-18-2006, 11:13 AM

In the name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit...

May the peace of our Lord & Saviour, Jesus Christ, be with you!

Quote:And who is the Father in Christian terminology? You believe that God the Father, and God the son and God the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, although you are calling “ALL OF THEM” One, but yet each one have got separate personality.

Nope! Same personality! Same essence! Same attributes!

Quote:According to the catholic creed, indeed they say that Jesus “The son” is the only begotten son of God, which means that God has begotten a son, same as what the Qur’an describes… so how can you say that “we do not say that God begot a son”???

Wael, I have no idea where you got that version from, but here is the Nicene Creed that Catholics have professed day after day since the 4th Century AD...

We believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made,

of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,

and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Quote:he also referred to God as “My God”. Which indicate that he "Jesus" was not God.

Dude, when Jesus was on the cross, He recited a line from the Book of Psalms. It was aimed at the Jews who refused to believe that He is the Son of God. Psalm 22 begins with the verse, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me..." It also includes the passage, "A company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet. I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots." This is exactly what took place at Christ's crucifixion. The Jews who sing the psalms as part their daily devotion, would've been able to make sense of what was going on & realized that Christ is the Messiah who was prophesized in the O/T.

Quote:If you are referring to John 14:6 then I do not see where does he teach you to worship the Father through him?? Because it was his job ‘as a prophet’ to guide his nation to the correct path and so if no one follow him during his mission, then he or she will not be guided to the true path (Heaven). This is what he meant and this is how I understand this verse, and so did many other Christians.

Wael, I joined this forum to learn about Islam. I'm not going to argue with you. You're entitled to your own opinions. According to the Church's interpretation of Scripture, we hold different beliefs. St John's Gospel (1:1-10) is a good place to start. It's one of many profound & meditative texts in the Holy Bible.

Quote:Indeed the Catholic do worship Mary, (am not talking about honoring Mary because we Muslims do honor her as well) I am talking about worshipping her, praying to her to forgive sins, bowing down to her images, touching them to gain blessing, Rosary, and other practices which I’ve seen with my own eyes when I was in the Philippines, and during my discussion with Catholics. So the verse is talking about those who worship Mary.

Wael, the next time you see a Christian worshipping Mary, please do me a favour & tell them that they're in error! Worship is due to God alone. The only thing Mary can do for Christians is intercede for us. So in actual fact, we aren't praying to Mary, we're asking her to pray for us (in the same way as I can ask you to say a prayer for me). Mother Mary doesn't have the power to forgive sins. She only does what any devout mother would do... she pleads on her children's behalf. For example, if a kid wants something from his father, he would probably go through his mother to get it, since she has more influence ;) The Rosary is a great prayer to pray to God WITH the Virgin Mary

Quote:Here are 2 links covering apostasy issue. Also here is a very informative link by Dr Yusuf Al Qaradawi speaking on apostasy.

Much appreciated. I'll check them out as soon as I have a chance. This issue is near & dear to my heart!

Quote:Please don’t forget that death penalty was prescribed for apostasy in the Bible too

Bro, Please be careful how you interpret the Bible. The death penalty is not condemned by the Church but the abuse of it most certainly is! John Paul II (Allah yerhamou) once said, "the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically non-existent." Apostasy as you understand it is not a valid reason for capital punishment. It would be a violation of human dignity and freedom.

Quote:I mean where he (Jesus pbuh) said that ‘Salvation were granted to ALL people by my merits or through my blood'

One example is during the Last Supper (St Matthew 26:27)... "This is my blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Wael, now you've got me thinking... I wonder whether Muslims would embrace Christianity if they learnt the truth about the faith rather than a false & distorted account of it :conf06:

Regardless, all I ask is that you be the best person you can be, whether you're Christian, Muslim, both or neither :)

God bless you my friend :)

Faith Hope Charity... Openness Tolerance Equality

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 12-19-2006, 03:56 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Nope! Same personality! Same essence! Same attributes!

You are totally going against the Catholic catechism… moreover; you are claiming that all of them have died on the cross by being SAME person and SAME essence. if this is wrong, then you can never call them ONE.

According to your catechism regarding Trinity, it says:

We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons
, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves 
but each of them is God whole and entire.

The divine persons are really distinct from one another
. "God is one but not solitary
."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another
: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin:
"It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten
, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."

So you do believe that all of them are ONE GOD, but at the same time they are THREE DISTINCT PRESONS, and not one person, not having the same attributes, and even their knowledge of the Day of Judgment is kept secret to the Father ONLY, neither the Son, nor the Spirit have any knowledge of that day. So how can you say that they are all having the same personality, essence and attributes?

And by the way, am not trying to teach you Catholicism, I am only trying to present to you my simple understanding, because am not going be so blind to believe in something which does not make sense “to me at least” (with due respect to you and your beliefs).

Wael, I have no idea where you got that version from, but here is the Nicene Creed that Catholics have professed day after day since the 4th Century AD..

Subhan Allah, this was the translation of the Greek text of the Constantinopolitan form.. You may check this link. Nicene Creed

But even if it was wrong (for the sake of discussion) , doesn’t the Bible (which is more important to you than any other Creed) say in John 3:16 “For GOD so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN SON!!!” So here again your Bible clearly states that Jesus is the begotten son of God, so who are you to say that

Quote:“we do not say that God begot a son”

Dude, when Jesus was on the cross, He recited a line from the Book of Psalms. It was aimed at the Jews who refused to believe that He is the Son of God. Psalm 22 begins with the verse, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me..." It also includes the passage, "A company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet. I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots." This is exactly what took place at Christ's crucifixion. The Jews who sing the psalms as part their daily devotion, would've been able to make sense of what was going on & realized that Christ is the Messiah who was prophesized in the O/T.

Are you sure that this is the only time he called the father MY GOD ?

Didn’t he also say that: “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God” - (JOHN 20:17)

Not only is God Jesus' father, but He is also his GOD

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR GOD is one Lord:… Mark 12:29

OUR GOD, including himself. 

Wael, I joined this forum to learn about Islam. I'm not going to argue with you. You're entitled to your own opinions. According to the Church's interpretation of Scripture, we hold different beliefs.

most welcome to learn about Islam. however, please be informed that i am not arguing here, I am presenting my view point, you may accept it or reject it, it is totally up to you. And it is also good chance for me to learn something NEW about Catholicism from you. (if you don’t mind)

Church’s interpretation of the Bible is huge thing FHC, and I don’t think so you are going to accept the Protestant interpretation or the Anglican Church interpretation of the Bible, because they themselves have thrown out 7 whole books from the Bible and called them ‘doubtful’, even some Christian denominations declared that Jesus pbuh was not God. so I don’t think you are going to believe in such thing, and the reason is always vague.

St John's Gospel (1:1-10) is a good place to start. It's one of many profound & meditative texts in the Holy Bible.

You may search on the web, we have discussed John 1:1 with CC and other Christians guests here, so you can see my responses.

Wael, the next time you see a Christian worshipping Mary, please do me a favour & tell them that they're in error! Worship is due to God alone.

Don’t worry, I am working on it insha’Allah.

The only thing Mary can do for Christians is intercede for us.

Any reference from the Bible?

So in actual fact, we aren't praying to Mary, we're asking her to pray for us

Is she alive today to pray for you? 

Rosary is a great prayer to pray to God WITH the Virgin Mary

Do you have right to call her the mother of God during Rosary? Does the Bible give you the right to call her with this title? any reference from the Bible ? 

Bro, Please be careful how you interpret the Bible. The death penalty is not condemned by the Church but the abuse of it most certainly is!

then we are in agreement here.

One example is during the Last Supper (St Matthew 26:27)... "This is my blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

You must not forget that Jesus (pbuh) also informs us that for him to tell a man that his sins are forgiven is much easier than to cure a paralytic and cause him to walk, and since Jesus (pbuh) had the power to cure paralytics, therefore, he demonstrates to us that forgiving sins is much easier for him.

And as you know that God the father is greater than all human being, including Jesus, you also know that Jesus pbuh have no power of his own, and that all miracles that he performed were the work of God alone.

So it stands to reason that what is easy for Jesus (pbuh) is trivial and inconsequential for God Almighty Himself. Thus, if Jesus (pbuh) can forgive sins with the utmost ease simply by uttering the words "your sins are forgiven you," then it is well within the ability of God Almighty Himself to do the same simply by willing it, even without uttering a word. The Bible says:

"Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy."

Micah 7:18

"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again."

Psalm 78:38-39

"I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins."

Isaiah 43:25

How then does God Almighty forgive our sins? Is He able to simply say "you are forgiven" to those who turn to Him in repentance or must He first sacrifice a sinless individual before He can do this? Hear what the Bible said:

"It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin." 

Jeremiah 36:3

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." 

Isaiah 55:7

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah." 

Psalm 32:5

"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged..." 

Proverbs 16:6

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 

2 Chronicles 7:14

"To do righteousness and justice [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." 

Proverbs 21:3

"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." 

Hosea 6:6

And finally here is what the Qur’an says regarding forgivness:

"Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt (through excessive sin)! Despair not of the mercy of Allah. Verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful."

The noble Qur'an, 39:53

Wael, now you've got me thinking... I wonder whether Muslims would embrace Christianity if they learnt the truth about the faith rather than a false & distorted account of it

Maybe if you really prove that what has been said is false. But sadly until today the Bible contains a lot of statements which are ambiguous and can be interpreted and understood in many different ways, not only among Muslims, but even the Christians themselves do not understand the Bible the same way. so the Truth that you are talking about can easily be verified when reading the Bible. "if you know what i mean"

Salam

Wael.

Faith Hope Charity · (This post was last modified: 12-19-2006, 01:58 PM by Faith Hope Charity.)

In the name of God - Father Son Holy Spirit.

May the peace of our Lord & Saviour, Jesus Christ, be with you!

"You are totally going against the Catholic catechism…"

Never!

moreover; you are claiming that all of them have died on the cross by being SAME person and SAME essence. if this is wrong, then you can never call them ONE.

Hehe! God can't die! Jesus Christ, the Son of God, assumed a human nature, therefore, He experience death in His humanity.

There is one God with one set of attributes (Quiescent Attributes - Eternity, Immensity & Omnipresence, & Immutability. Operative Attributes - Knowledge & Will. Other Attributes - Power, Holiness, Majesty, Wisdom & Goodness, Justice, providence, Truth, Mercy).

Jesus isn't ignorant of the hour of the second coming, but rather, He cannot reveal it, neither can men or angels, because it's reserved for the Father only to announce.

And by the way, am not trying to teach you Catholicism, I am only trying to present to you my simple understanding, because am not going be so blind to believe in something which does not make sense “to me at least” (with due respect to you and your beliefs).

Don't ever believe in anything you're unsure of & I encourage you to keep studying until it all makes sense to you!

Subhan Allah, this was the translation of the Greek text of the Constantinopolitan form.. You may check this link. Nicene Creed

Read it carefully! It says: the only begotten Son of God as opposed to the only [/b]begotten son of God.

But even if it was wrong (for the sake of discussion) , doesn’t the Bible (which is more important to you than any other Creed) say in John 3:16 “For GOD so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN SON!!!” So here again your Bible clearly states that Jesus is the begotten son of God, so who are you to say that

Dude, throw out that dodgy version of the Bible & buy one with the following translation... "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him" (RSV).

Didn’t he also say that: “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God” - (JOHN 20:17) Not only is God Jesus' father, but He is also his GOD

Indeed! Jesus sent out a message to the Jews which echoed 2 Kings 2:9-12 & Ruth 1:16 (Your people shall be my people, and your God my God). The Father of Jesus will now become the Father of the diciples because, once ascended, Jesus can give the Spirit that comes from the Father & they can be reborn as God's sons. That's why He calls them "my brothers."

St Athanasius (4th Century AD) is the author of one of my favourite quotes... "The Son of God became the Son of Man so that the sons of man may become sons of God."

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR GOD is one Lord:… Mark 12:29

OUR GOD, including himself.

Jesus was simply quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

most welcome to learn about Islam. however, please be informed that i am not arguing here, I am presenting my view point, you may accept it or reject it, it is totally up to you. And it is also good chance for me to learn something NEW about Catholicism from you. (if you don’t mind)

I'm extremely grateful to this forum for giving me the opportunity to learn & share. I'm glad there's mutual respect between us. Insha'Allah one day Muslims & Christians can co-exist throughout the world in peace, love & harmony :) I admire your passion for Islam.

You may search on the web, we have discussed John 1:1 with CC and other Christians guests here, so you can see my responses.

Will do! Thanks Mate!

Wael, the next time you see a Christian worshipping Mary, please do me a favour & tell them that they're in error! Worship is due to God alone.

Don’t worry, I am working on it insha’Allah.

I should've mentioned this yesterday... Having a picture/statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary in your house (or any other Saint) isn't a sin. It's just like hanging family photos on the wall & acknowledging the people in them.

The only thing Mary can do for Christians is intercede for us. 

Any reference from the Bible?

St John 2:1 (Wedding at Cana).

So in actual fact, we aren't praying to Mary, we're asking her to pray for us

Is she alive today to pray for you?

Yes! In Heaven (Revelation 12:1-18). I can barely interpret the book of Revelation due to its apocolyptic & symbolic language, so if you're going to attempt it, have a copy of the Catechism handy - just a helpful tip :)

Rosary is a great prayer to pray to God WITH the Virgin Mary

Do you have right to call her the mother of God during Rosary? Does the Bible give you the right to call her with this title? any reference from the Bible ?

St Luke 1:41-45. The Bible never contradicts reason. It took me a while but I kind of worked out this mystery using logic.

One example is during the Last Supper (St Matthew 26:27)... "This is my blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

You must not forget that Jesus (pbuh) also informs us that for him to tell a man that his sins are forgiven is much easier than to cure a paralytic and cause him to walk, and since Jesus (pbuh) had the power to cure paralytics, therefore, he demonstrates to us that forgiving sins is much easier for him.

But there's more to it, Wael! By dying for our sins, Jesus destroyed death & by His resurrection, He has restored our life. The New Covenant means that the gates of Heaven have now been opened.

And as you know that God the father is greater than all human being,

Amen!

including Jesus

In His humanity... Yes! In His divinity... the Son is equal to the Father! Jesus' humanity & divinity were united through the Incarnation. Jesus Christ is a Divine Person (Son of God) with a fully divine nature & a fully human nature. True God & True Man!

you also know that Jesus pbuh have no power of his own, and that all miracles that he performed were the work of God alone. 

Jesus is God (but remember it's improper to say that God is Jesus).

Maybe if you really prove that what has been said is false.

Wael, all I ask for is that people reject Catholicism for what is it not for what it is not

But sadly until today the Bible contains a lot of statements which are ambiguous and can be interpreted and understood in many different ways, not only among Muslims, but even the Christians themselves do not understand the Bible the same way. so the Truth that you are talking about can easily be verified when reading the Bible. "if you know what i mean"

Sad but true! Hey, just so you know... before the Reformation (16th Century AD), all Christians held the same beliefs (but there were 2 traditions - East & West). Unfortunately, today there are approximately 50,000 different Christian denominations worldwide all teaching whatever they want - it's ridiculous! I guarantee you that the Catholic Church will stand the test of time! It's the only one that constantly gets attacked & targeted by Satan throughout the ages. Why? Because it's the true Church of Christ Jesus!

Take care, Wael!

I'm praying for you. Please pray for me too.

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