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John 15:18 · 09-29-2006, 04:58 AM

Bismillah:

Of course am aware of this verse, in fact I have discussed this same verse with ‘curious Christian’ before, but here we go again.

First you must understand that "before Abraham was I am" is not the same as "worship me!"

That wasn't the challenge. You asked us to find a single verse where Jesus said he was God OR where he said "worship me". I found one of those. Can't change the rules now. If he's God, you would agree that he is worthy of worship.

The fact that Jesus pbuh was present before Abraham pbuh is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then would you say about Solomon pbuh (Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec Hebrews 7:3, who were supposedly present not only before Abraham pbuh, but also before all of creation? What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births? 

Proverbs 8 

The person speaking in Proverbs 8: Wisdom. Nice try. Wisdom has every right to exist before the world, and isn't a person.

Hebrews 7

Melchizadek was around before Abraham. He was dead long before the arrival of Christ. His eternality, lack of parents, etc, is to show his difference from the priesthood of Aaron. Jesus was a priest, but not a levite, whose rules for succession were based on geneology. Jesus was a priest from the eternal order of Melchizadek, which is not based on time or on descendency.

With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by Jesus pbuh used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.

"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.

Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty!!!! (Astaghfurullah). Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?

You must see the difference between saying "I am" in reference to a question, "are you that guy", and "I AM" in reference to being in existence before Abraham. Someone uses the name of God, and uses it in reference to eternal existence. Not the same thing.

Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God?

Naturally not. And you know that isn't the case. Not everyone who says these two words is God. But, in the context of the issues posed to Jesus at the time, that was his message. You disagree.

Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (which was Jesus) he replied:

"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17 NOT GOD, and not even GOD THE SON... but a prophet.

Read a little further. Jesus tells him who he is: "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered, "And who is he, sir? Tell me so I may believe in Him" Jesus said to him, "you have seen him. And the one speaking with you is He." He said, "Lord, I believe." and he WORSHIPPED HIM" (John 9:35-38). After Jesus reveals who he is, the beggar worships him. Jesus does not correct him. The worship comes naturally.

Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.

Do you see how we have once again been reduced to implication?. Notice how since Jesus never once says "I am God!" or "Worship me!" that our own desire for him to actually say that he is God is making us "interpret" every innocent statement he makes to be equivalent to "I am God!"

Jesus uses the exact same words that God used in the Old Testament to say that is how he would be known forever and ever. Can it be any clearer? That's the name God Himself chose. Jesus used it. You don't think it means that Jesus is God. He would disagree.

Is it so impossible for us to bring one clear verse like for example Isaiah 66:23 where Jesus HIMSELF also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right to say it plainly that he is God.

He did. I just referred to it. He used the Name God Himself used. I call that clear. Not inference. If it was as casual as something that had already been said about several other people, why would those listening have wanted to stone Him after he said it

The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth...

Why is it necessary: 

1-For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and

2- for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father." ?????

while it is NOT necessary:

1- For Jesus pbuh to explicitly command us to worship him, or

2- for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?

Last verse, from the end of the Gospel of John: "Thomas answered him 'My Lord and MY GOD!' Jesus said to him, 'have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have yet come to believe'". If Jesus was not God, he would not have credited Thomas, would he?

Jesus is God. God is worthy of worship. That means Jesus is worthy of worship. Logical argument. I have shown where Jesus said he was God, and you would agree that God is worthy of worship. Either you say that Jesus was not saying he was God, or you are saying that God is not worthy of worship. I figure it will be the first one. Needless to say, I have brought forth the verse you were looking for. I assume the challenge is over now.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 09-29-2006, 08:42 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:That wasn't the challenge. You asked us to find a single verse where Jesus said he was God OR where he said "worship me". I found one of those. Can't change the rules now. If he's God, you would agree that he is worthy of worship.

Are you saying that you really found where Jesus said I am God? is the term I am means I am God? cant you see that the word 'God' is missing in the statement that Jesus used?? please show me where he said I am God and so worship me… but what i can see in the Bible is that Jesus can do nothing on his own, the words he spoke are no his own, that he does not know about the day of judgment, that God used him to perform these miracles… are you still saying that he is God… come on please…

Quote:The person speaking in Proverbs 8: Wisdom. Nice try. Wisdom has every right to exist before the world, and isn't a person.
Hebrews 7

Wisdom speaking? Is this another mystery like trinity? This interpretation makes no sense at all.

Quote:Melchizadek was around before Abraham. He was dead long before the arrival of Christ. His eternality, lack of parents, etc, is to show his difference from the priesthood of Aaron. Jesus was a priest, but not a levite, whose rules for succession were based on geneology. Jesus was a priest from the eternal order of Melchizadek, which is not based on time or on descendency.

Really the verse does not need your comments… it is clear cut statement.. it says that this King of Salem IS Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life… so if anyone claim that Jesus is God, then Melchazdics is a greater God…

With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by Jesus pbuh used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.

"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.

Quote:You must see the difference between saying "I am" in reference to a question, "are you that guy", and "I AM" in reference to being in existence before Abraham. Someone uses the name of God, and uses it in reference to eternal existence. Not the same thing.

Don’t you know that Jeremiah was made a prophet before his birth? Why cant you understand that Jesus was also saying that he was there in the plan and knowledge of God before Prophet Abraham was sent?

"Before I formed thee in the belly (of your mother) I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

Quote:Read a little further. Jesus tells him who he is: "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered, "And who is he, sir? Tell me so I may believe in Him" Jesus said to him, "you have seen him. And the one speaking with you is He." He said, "Lord, I believe." and he WORSHIPPED HIM" (John 9:35-38). After Jesus reveals who he is, the beggar worships him. Jesus does not correct him. The worship comes naturally.

Note that Jesus did not ask him “do you believe in me as God”? he said do you believe in the Son of man… and also the term Lord does not always mean God… now the man worshipped Jesus, oh and Jesus didn’t object, therefore he is God, is that what you are trying to say ?

Now you need to understand the term worshipped which is translated from the Greek word "prosekunesan" which is derived from the root word proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o}. The literal meaning of this word is "to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand." This word also has the general meaning of "bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate." Please check the Strong's concordance for the true meaning of this word. Is the act of kissing someone's hand the same as worshipping him? Once again, selective translation. 

How can you explain "kneeling down before Jesus."? Should we understand that they were "praying" to him? Look at what your Bible says:

"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid." 
1 Samuel 25:23-24

When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?. this act was repeated several times in the Bible, I could quote many verses if you wish…

The word "Worship" also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" (see Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition). Doesn’t really mean that this man worship Jesus as God… still you have no provide any thing to proof Jesus’ divinity.

Quote:[/b]Jesus uses the exact same words that God used in the Old Testament to say that is how he would be known forever and ever. Can it be any clearer? That's the name God Himself chose. Jesus used it. You don't think it means that Jesus is God. He would disagree.

Using God’s name (if that was really His name) does not mean that he himself is God. Or else why he commanded you to worship and serve the father ONLY?

Jesus (pbuh) never in his lifetime told anyone to worship him. It was others who did that. Quite the contrary, whenever Jesus (pbuh) spoke of worship, he always attributed it to God and never himself: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve"
Luke 4:8. Notice the words: "Him ONLY." Jesus did not say "US only," or "Him and I only." How could he possibly make it more clear than that? What abstract meaning are we now going to concoct for this verse to show that what Jesus "really" meant was "worship BOTH of us"? 

Salam

Wael

John 15:18 · 09-29-2006, 04:38 PM

Bismillah:

Are you saying that you really found where Jesus said I am God? is the term I am means I am God? cant you see that the word 'God' is missing in the statement that Jesus used?? please show me where he said I am God and so worship me… but what i can see in the Bible is that Jesus can do nothing on his own, the words he spoke are no his own, that he does not know about the day of judgment, that God used him to perform these miracles… are you still saying that he is God… come on please…

I showed you where Jesus said that he was God. He used the words "I AM" which is exactly what God called himself in the Old Testament. You are overlooking that. But even then, why would Jesus use the present tense for the verb, instead of the past tense? This is more than him being ordained as a prophet, this is him existing before all time.

Wisdom speaking? Is this another mystery like trinity? This interpretation makes no sense at all.

Proverbs 8:1-2: Does not Wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?" That's not my interpretation. That's who is listed as speaking. It's a personification. I take it you didn't read the passage in question before posting about it.

Really the verse does not need your comments… it is clear cut statement.. it says that this King of Salem IS Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life… so if anyone claim that Jesus is God, then Melchazdics is a greater God…

Melchizadek is listed as being "like the son of God". Keep reading to Hebrews 7:11 and following. With all this discussion of Jesus being a priest in the order of Melchizadek, is the case being made that he and Melchizadek are equal? Not really. Melchizadek's ancestry, birth and death are unknown, yet he is a priest. That is what it is.

With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by Jesus pbuh used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself.

"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.

I've already adressed this. Jesus' words are using the ancient name of God, which God himself gave. Part of that is attaching eternity (a power of God) with Jesus, which he did. When the beggar says it, he is speaking of himself, and answering questions about someone who healed him, someone else who used the power of God. Yes, someone else says I am, but you'll notice that they don't pick up stones to stone the beggar. They aren't saying the same thing.

Don’t you know that Jeremiah was made a prophet before his birth? Why cant you understand that Jesus was also saying that he was there in the plan and knowledge of God before Prophet Abraham was sent?

Jeremiah was ordained as a prophet before his birth, that is true. But Jesus was more than that. He clearly isn't saying "before Abraham, I was conceived as a plan in God's eyes, and ordained to be a prophet when I was born". Rather, he says "Before Abraham was, I AM". He has existed, been himself for all this time.

"Before I formed thee in the belly (of your mother) I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

Note that Jesus did not ask him “do you believe in me as God”? he said do you believe in the Son of man… and also the term Lord does not always mean God… now the man worshipped Jesus, oh and Jesus didn’t object, therefore he is God, is that what you are trying to say ?

Now you need to understand the term worshipped which is translated from the Greek word "prosekunesan" which is derived from the root word proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o}. The literal meaning of this word is "to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand." This word also has the general meaning of "bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate." Please check the Strong's concordance for the true meaning of this word. Is the act of kissing someone's hand the same as worshipping him? Once again, selective translation. 

We're getting Greek now, are we? Oh, very good. Yes, that word is in greek, and yes, it means to bow, keel, and to prostrate. It also means to worship. But, even if Jesus was being bowed to, crouched before, crawled before, knelt before, or prostrated before, would he not have stopped it, were he not God? Bowing before Jesus IS bowing before God.

How can you explain "kneeling down before Jesus."? Should we understand that they were "praying" to him? Look at what your Bible says:

"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid." 
1 Samuel 25:23-24

When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?. this act was repeated several times in the Bible, I could quote many verses if you wish…

David was a king. You bow before kings. It's only right. You don't worship them. Who was Jesus king of, to get this secular prostration?

The word "Worship" also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" (see Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition). Doesn’t really mean that this man worship Jesus as God… still you have no provide any thing to proof Jesus’ divinity.

Is that the challenge now? I thought all I had to do was find the one verse?

Using God’s name (if that was really His name) does not mean that he himself is God.

That was the challenge. To find a single verse where Jesus said he was God. You've basically said I've done that. He used God's name in reference to himself. He called himself God.

Or else why he commanded you to worship and serve the father ONLY?

So people wouldn't get confused. Like you obviously have done. I'll break it down for you. Jesus shows and displays all the majesty and power of God. He has existed from eternity, he healed the sick, raised the dead, walked on water, had power over storms, etc. And he says "give all glory to God", but does not object when people call Him God, or when people worship him. He also uses the ancient name of God in reference to himself. Why? Because he doesn't want people to think that there are two gods, but one God, ancient and eternal. This God is in three persons, but it doesn't make it two gods, or three gods. If Jesus had said "worship me as well", then there is a significant danger that people would have worshipped them separately, and had two gods. Which we do not. We have one God, co-existent, and co-eternal.

Jesus (pbuh) never in his lifetime told anyone to worship him. It was others who did that. Quite the contrary, whenever Jesus (pbuh) spoke of worship, he always attributed it to God and never himself: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve"
Luke 4:8. Notice the words: "Him ONLY." Jesus did not say "US only," or "Him and I only."

They're both God.

How could he possibly make it more clear than that? What abstract meaning are we now going to concoct for this verse to show that what Jesus "really" meant was "worship BOTH of us"? 

Because they're one God. I know Muslimsl in general can't see that as anything but polytheism, but that's where it is right there.

Salam

Wael

Steve Consilvio · (This post was last modified: 09-29-2006, 08:43 PM by Steve Consilvio.)

wel_mel_2 your argument has shifted from "does the Trinity exist" to "Should Jesus be worshipped." I suppose you are trying to establish that if Jesus is not to be worshipped, then he is not part of the Trinity, and therefore the Trinity does not exist.

I find this a quite curious method of inquiry given the high regard Muhammed is held by Muslims. While he is not regarded as God, clearly his words are. Whereas in Jesus we have someone who God proclaims to be His son, and therefore more likely to speak witout error.

(Keep in mind that Jesus was born of a virgin, just as Abraham and Sarah were given a son in their older years. There is nothing difficult about God making a miracle is there? Just as Isaac was to be sacrificed, so too was Jesus. Isn't it odd that the narratives should be so similar if Jesus was just another prophet?)

Also, Jesus says He does not bring peace, but division. You seem to be making His words come true by trying to find reasons to dispute His teaching.

The central narrative of the Bible is that men ignore the teachings of God and stone the prophets, and so God takes his revenge on the disobedient. I find the same narrative in the Qu'ran. Yet, men insist on seeking permission in the scripture to do the exact opposite of what it says. (The most common thing being to kill one another while serving in worship to a pagan symbol like a nation's flag.)

Have you not fallen into the same trap?

Please answer me a basic question: Does man have a right to kill another man, either by the word of God or by the laws of man?

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 09-30-2006, 03:06 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:I showed you where Jesus said that he was God. He used the words "I AM" which is exactly what God called himself in the Old Testament. You are overlooking that. But even then, why would Jesus use the present tense for the verb, instead of the past tense? This is more than him being ordained as a prophet, this is him existing before all time.

First of all you did not show me any single verse where Jesus said I am God… what you show me is something which is very ambiguous and insufficient... here is why:

Let us consider for the sake of argument that Jesus pbuh meant to claim by these words that he was alive before Abraham, is this sufficient ground to say that he was divine? If Jesus was there before Abraham and then came down to earth it might mean something remarkable, but it would not be enough to establish that he was God, using these words “I am” are open to other interpretation, you can’t imagine Prophet Jeremiah who had a pre-human existence and so you find a suitable way of interpreting the words of Jeremiah 1:5 which portray such a situation, if taken literally why not apply a similar understanding in the case of John 8:58??

Now you are connecting Exodus 3:14 with John 8:58 to mean that BOTH TERMS were used by God the father and God the son, and so they are one. Am I right? ….. Ok, you know well that the original of the first quotation was in Hebrew while the original of the second was in Greek, all but a few of Jesus’ words were recorded in Greek, and for 200 years before the time of Jesus, the Jews used a Greek translation of their Hebrew Scriptures, The Septuagint. This word translated is the key phrase “I am” of Exodus as HO ON, while the words of Jesus “I am” have been given to us in Greek as EGO EIMI, Now if the gospel writer of John 8:58 wanted to tell his Greek speaking people that Jesus had imitated God, he would have used the familier words of the Septuagint, otherwise the point would be lost. So your evidence of John 8:58 is far from conclusive.

Quote:Melchizadek is listed as being "like the son of God". Keep reading to Hebrews 7:11 and following. With all this discussion of Jesus being a priest in the order of Melchizadek, is the case being made that he and Melchizadek are equal? Not really. Melchizadek's ancestry, birth and death are unknown, yet he is a priest. That is what it is.

His birth and death are unknown???, 
the Bible should say that not you… but the Bible clearly says that he is Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; … these are the quality of God alone

Quote:We're getting Greek now, are we? Oh, very good. Yes, that word is in greek, and yes, it means to bow, keel, and to prostrate. It also means to worship. But, even if Jesus was being bowed to, crouched before, crawled before, knelt before, or prostrated before, would he not have stopped it, were he not God? Bowing before Jesus IS bowing before God.

Am using the same method of your Scholars who taught me that sometimes we need to go back to the original writings in order to understand certain situations in the Bible… and so you must know that according to the lexical aids to the Bible, the proper Greek word for 'worship' is 'sebomai' (4576) from the root 'seb'. That word 'sebomai' is used by Matthew in 15:9 where Jesus said; "But in vain do they worship me, ..." so if the Bible wanted to convey that Jesus was worshipped', then the authors of the Bible should have used the word 'sebomai' which they did not. and so am still looking for unequivocal statement from the lips of Jesus Christ where he say I am God or where he say worship me, and so the question of Jesus stopping them for worshipping, therefore does not arise, because they simply bowed or prostrated to him as a sign of respect and honor and not as God
.

Quote:David was a king. You bow before kings. It's only right. You don't worship them. Who was Jesus king of, to get this secular prostration?

Ok forget about David, he was a King and people used to bow and prostrate to them in olden days.. but how about Elisha and Joseph of Genesis?

"Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."
2 Kings 4:37

"And his (Joseph's) brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants."
Genesis 50:18

Quote:Is that the challenge now? I thought all I had to do was find the one verse?
That was the challenge. To find a single verse where Jesus said he was God. You've basically said I've done that. He used God's name in reference to himself. He called himself God.

You didn’t meet the challenge yet… you are like drowning in the middle of the sea and finally, you found a piece of wood, then you swim with difficulty towards it to save yourself. The verse you have quoted in fact disprove Jesus’ divinity.

Quote:So people wouldn't get confused. Like you obviously have done. I'll break it down for you. Jesus shows and displays all the majesty and power of God. He has existed from eternity, he healed the sick, raised the dead, walked on water, had power over storms, etc. And he says "give all glory to God", but does not object when people call Him God, or when people worship him.

Ok here is another story, first, Jesus did not perform miracles on his own, he didn’t raise the dead, and he never controls the storms… all these miracles were performed by God Almighty (whom you call The Father) through Jesus, in other words, God used Jesus as instrument to perform these miracles… and here what the Bible said:

1. Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Means the power is not belongs to Jesus.

2. Luke 11:20: "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils." Not on his own.

3. Matthew 12:28 "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God." again not on his own.

4. John 5:30: "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." He can do nothing on his own “God”.

5. John 10:25: "the works that I do in my Father's name." 

6. John 8:28-29 "...I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." The father indeed deserve our worship and not Jesus.

7. Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know” and this is my point. God did the miracles by Jesus.

Plus Jesus pbuh himself tells us that miracles by themselves do not prove anything:

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect
" Matthew 24:24

So even false Christs can supply great wonders and miracles of such magnitude that even the most knowledgeable among men shall be deceived. So miracles does not prove that Jesus is God.

Quote:They're both God.

Ok so now you are telling me that the term worship the father ONLY means worship both of US????… well, no comments.

Quote:Because they're one God. I know Muslimsl in general can't see that as anything but polytheism, but that's where it is right there.

if both are God, then we should at least read one single verse where there is clear explanation that they are both are the same God… but when you read the Bible you see the exact opposite. So what I can see now is that Christianity is based on what people have said about Jesus pbuh and not what he declares about himself.

Salam

Wael.

wel_mel_2 · (This post was last modified: 09-30-2006, 03:45 AM by wel_mel_2.)

Bismillah:

Quote:wel_mel_2 your argument has shifted from "does the Trinity exist" to "Should Jesus be worshipped." I suppose you are trying to establish that if Jesus is not to be worshipped, then he is not part of the Trinity, and therefore the Trinity does not exist.

Both topics are related Steve… you believe in Trinity and that’s why you worship Jesus as "the second person" of Trinity. but did he teach Trinity? Did he order people to worship him? No… therefore there is no such thing called Trinity and so you should not worship him.

Quote:I find this a quite curious method of inquiry given the high regard Muhammed is held by Muslims. While he is not regarded as God, clearly his words are. Whereas in Jesus we have someone who God proclaims to be His son, and therefore more likely to speak witout error.

We honor Muhammad pbuh, follow his teaching, and obey him but we never worship him, simply because he is not God. But you guys went to the extreme by elevating Jesus to be a 'flesh-god' and to be worshipped along with the One True God while he commaded you to worship only the father.

Quote:(Keep in mind that Jesus was born of a virgin, just as Abraham and Sarah were given a son in their older years. There is nothing difficult about God making a miracle is there?

I do believe that he was born of a virgin; I too believe that he was born miraculously without any male intervention. The main difference is that we Muslims worship the One True God, creator of the heavens and earth and all that exists, exclusively, but you worship Jesus alongside the One True God. while you worship Jesus, we worship the Creator of Jesus. Whereas you worship one who ate, drank, relieved himself in the bathroom, we worship the One who is perfect in all His Attributes, free of all human needs. God says about Himself: There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.
[Qur'an 42:11].

Quote:Also, Jesus says He does not bring peace, but division. You seem to be making His words come true by trying to find reasons to dispute His teaching.
The central narrative of the Bible is that men ignore the teachings of God and stone the prophets, and so God takes his revenge on the disobedient. I find the same narrative in the Qu'ran. Yet, men insist on seeking permission in the scripture to do the exact opposite of what it says. (The most common thing being to kill one another while serving in worship to a pagan symbol like a nation's flag.)

Absolutely wrong, Am trying to think with your mind, am really striving hard to understand how did you believe in such concept while it is not clearly explained in your holy Book.

Quote:Please answer me a basic question: Does man have a right to kill another man, either by the word of God or by the laws of man?

Am sorry, I am not in a position of giving an Islamic ruling or what we call it Fatwa regarding your question. I know that fighting was prescribed by God in the Qur’an against unbelievers who show hostility towards Muslims, who persecuted them for years and kicked them out of their land and so in certain cases killing might be justified, the Bible also teaches the same thing. But am not the one to decide such thing.

Allah knows best.

Salam

wael

John 15:18 · (This post was last modified: 09-30-2006, 04:52 AM by John 15:18.)

Quote:Bismillah:

if both are God, then we should at least read one single verse where there is clear explanation that they are both are the same God… but when you read the Bible you see the exact opposite. So what I can see now is that Christianity is based on what people have said about Jesus pbuh and not what he declares about himself.

Salam

Wael.

I'm tired. I don't have the time or the presence of mind to go through the whole argument. What I will say are the two following things:

1 - Jesus' words were not to 21st century Muslims. They were to first century Jews, who understood the implication of invoking the ancient and sacred name of God. "I AM" meant to the Jews the same thing as saying "I am God".

2 - Looking for a single verse where Jesus says that he and God are the same....

John 10:30: "I and the father are one". That, in Greek, is in the neuter, not in the masculine, so "one essence" over "one person". You can say I am slanting the Greek, but Jesus is saying that he and the father are one. Thus the I AM earlier, in case you didn't follow him. That is what Jesus declared about himself. He and the father are one.

And the earlier verse still stands. To his audience, who knows the Old Testament, He was saying that He was God. Thus they tried to stone him. Why? Because

John 10:33: "We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God".

They got what Jesus was saying. You do not. And I understand that you will not, so that's fine. You've helped me to defend my faith, and to look back and ensure that Jesus is divine.

It has been interesting sparring verbally with you. You make a good case, and you've been well taught.

"How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand. My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my father's hand. I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

All that he says about God applies to himself as well. And the Jews felt the need to stone him. Because they could not understand that Jesus could be God, even though he could be nothing else.

I know you're going to quote John 17, saying that Jesus prayed: "Protect them by the power of YOUR name - THE NAME YOU GAVE ME - so that they may be one, as we are one."

The disciples should be as united in mind and purpose as God the Father and God the Son. Father and Son are of the same essence, the disciples are of one essence as well. And they should continue to be united in purpose as well. Oh, and here, Jesus says that the name of the Father is the name that is his name as well.

wel_mel_2 · 09-30-2006, 07:05 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:1 - Jesus' words were not to 21st century Muslims. They were to first century Jews, who understood the implication of invoking the ancient and sacred name of God. "I AM" meant to the Jews the same thing as saying "I am God".

So they understand and we did not… ok in this case, we cannot prove anything because even you were not there with them in the first century and so if he was God, he should be the God for those who understand his weird language. But for me, these words does not prove his divinity. They are not clear and they are open for many interpretation. what we are looking for is clear statement

now there are few points to mention:

Since Jesus never said it PLAINLY that he is God Almighty the Creator of everything, then:

Are you claiming that Jesus is incapable when telling his disciples "worship the Father only” to add the words "...and the Son because we are the same God"? 

Are there no words in his language to say "I am God therefore worship me”, “worship both of us"? 

Now when Jesus said "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve” the problem with your interpretation (actually with all Christians) is that they "interpret" the words "he" and "him" to mean "we" and "us" when it suits them, in cases such as Luke 4:8, they claim that "him" really means "us." But in cases where God "begets" Jesus, or where God "sacrifices" Jesus, or where Jesus died, “him" and "he" is God alone or Jesus alone and does not mean "us" and "we." … Subhan Allah.

Quote:2 - Looking for a single verse where Jesus says that he and God are the same....
John 10:30: "I and the father are one". That, in Greek, is in the neuter, not in the masculine, so "one essence" over "one person". You can say I am slanting the Greek, but Jesus is saying that he and the father are one. Thus the I AM earlier, in case you didn't follow him. That is what Jesus declared about himself. He and the father are one.

And the earlier verse still stands. To his audience, who knows the Old Testament, He was saying that He was God. Thus they tried to stone him. Why? Because

John 10:33: "We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God".

They got what Jesus was saying. You do not. And I understand that you will not, so that's fine. You've helped me to defend my faith, and to look back and ensure that Jesus is divine.

It has been interesting sparring verbally with you. You make a good case, and you've been well taught.

"How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand. My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my father's hand. I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

All that he says about God applies to himself as well. And the Jews felt the need to stone him. Because they could not understand that Jesus could be God, even though he could be nothing else.

I know you're going to quote John 17, saying that Jesus prayed: "Protect them by the power of YOUR name - THE NAME YOU GAVE ME - so that they may be one, as we are one."

The disciples should be as united in mind and purpose as God the Father and God the Son. Father and Son are of the same essence, the disciples are of one essence as well. And they should continue to be united in purpose as well. Oh, and here, Jesus says that the name of the Father is the name that is his name as well.

Very simple, again this verse is open for another interpretation… he and his father are one IN WHAT?? In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. read the verses again start from John10:23 and you will see that as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.

And no, am not going to quote John 17 (although the same ONE used in John 10:30 was also used in John 17)

But here are more verse carrying the same meaning 

"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit,"
1 Corinthians 6:15-17

Another example:

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Ephesians 4:6

And

"For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."
1 Corinthians 12:12-14

Now the message of Paul was clear that:

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Ephesians 4:4

"St. Paul" was speaking about Christian unity, not about a plurality of gods merged into one body. Then why cant you apply the same thing to John 10???

if he was God he should have said it plainly.

Salam

Wael.

John 15:18 · 09-30-2006, 01:33 PM

You yourself have said it: This verse is open to another interpretation. Even when Jesus comes straight out and says that he is God, you do not want to see it, and therefore, it is not to you.

The fact is, that you are asking the same questions, with almost the same language, as the Jews did who were asking Jesus about his divinity in John. Remember, they said, "Tell us plainly". Jesus replies with "I did tell you....I and the father are one". Their response to that is "You, a mere man, claim to be God". They ask for a straight answer. Jesus gives it. They respond with an appropriate answer for Jesus' response. Had Jesus' words been more likely to be another interpretation, or been incredibly loose, then he would have told them what he meant, and told them that he was united with the father in purpose only. However, the Jews pick up stones in verse 31 because they say that Jesus sets himself up as God, then in verse 39, after Jesus has had a chance to clarify his statement, and remove any doubt about what he said, they still want to arrest him/stone him/whatever.

The point? Jesus is speaking clearly enough. His audience gets it. I get it. And each attempt to make this passage vague is reaching more and more. Again, look at the structure. They ask for a straight answer. Jesus says that he and the father are one. The Jews want to kill him because he sets himself up as God. Jesus clarifies his statement. The Jews continue to want to kill him.

Had he meant that he was united in purpose with the father, their desire to mess him up would have gone away. But, they don't stop wanting to kill him right up until they do. With crucifixion.

And the body of Christ is a big long extended metaphor. It has a dual purpose; that we as believers should be united as a body, but also that Christ is as in charge of the church as the head is in charge of the body. And this unity happens through Holy Communion, where the body and blood of Christ, broken and shed for us, are partaken of, and "we must consider that Christ is in us, not only according to the habit which we understand as love, but also by a natural participation".

We won't get into communion now, but suffice it to say that the reason that mentality of purpose, community, etc. applies to those verses you brought up, and not to John 10 (and good verses they are, too), is that unlike in John 10, no equality is presented. In John 10 (which the Jews understood), snatching the sheep out of Jesus' hand is equal to snatching them out of the father's hand. And then Jesus and the father are one. That is plain. I understand the desire to make it appear as though Jesus is saying something else, but that is a lot more difficult than allowing Jesus to say what he says in this passage. Following your previous lines of questioning:

"If Jesus meant that he and the Father were of one purpose, why didn't he say so plainly in this passage?"

It would have been easy to do, but instead, we find Jesus saying that he and the father are one. This whole debate, you have been trying to say that Jesus does not speak plainly. And then, when he does, adressing your question of "when does Jesus say that he and the Father are one God?" you say he speaks vaguely again. But I put the question back to you. If all it would take to get the Jews to get the right idea would be to say "I and the father are of one purpose", then why does he not do it? Why does he not speak plainly there?

Unless he had already spoken plainly, twice in rapid succession, saying that before Abraham was, I AM, and I and the Father are one.

wel_mel_2 · 10-01-2006, 03:06 AM

Bismillah:

Quote:You yourself have said it: This verse is open to another interpretation. Even when Jesus comes straight out and says that he is God, you do not want to see it, and therefore, it is not to you.

No I said it once in the Philippines in public discussion with Christians and I will say it again, if anyone is able to show me a single verse where Jesus declare it plainly that he is God, or where he say worship me, I am ready to embrace Christianity
… but there is none and therefore I cannot believe in such invention.

Quote:The fact is, that you are asking the same questions, with almost the same language, as the Jews did who were asking Jesus about his divinity in John. Remember, they said, "Tell us plainly". Jesus replies with "I did tell you....I and the father are one".

No, now you are 'removing words' from the original text to suite your desires because in fact this is the way how you want to believe, if you told me that I have faith that Jesus is God, then am not going to open my mouth, I will defently respect your faith, but to say that he himself claim divinity!!! I will disagree very strongly… now see and read the question which was posed by the Jews to Jesus.

The Jews asked Jesus the following: "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ
, tell us plainly." (John 10:24). And as you know, Christ does not mean God… they tell him if you are Christ say it plainly. And he replied in verse 25 to 30:

25. "Jesus answered, I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,"

26. "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

Jesus rebuts the false charge of his enemies that he was ambiguous in his claims to being the Messiah that they were waiting for. He says that he did tell them clearly enough, yet they would not listen to him, but:

27. "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."

28. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

29. "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all
; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.." (John 10:29).

How can anyone be so blind as not to see the exactness of the ending of the last two verses. But spiritual blinkers are more impervious than physical defects. He is telling the Jews and recording for posterity, the real unity or relationship between the Father and the son. The most crucial verse:

30. "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30).

One in what? In their Omniscience? In their Nature? In their Omnipotence? No! One in purpose! That once a believer has accepted faith, the Messenger sees to it that he remains in faith, and God Almighty also sees to it that he remains in faith. This is the purpose of the "Father" and the "son" and the "Holy Ghost" and of every man and every woman of faith. And that was explanined also in the book of John



."That they all may be one as thou. Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us..." I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one..."(John 17:20-22)

the same word "ONE" was used in both verses.

Quote:Their response to that is "You, a mere man, claim to be God". They ask for a straight answer. Jesus gives it. They respond with an appropriate answer for Jesus' response. Had Jesus' words been more likely to be another interpretation, or been incredibly loose, then he would have told them what he meant, and told them that he was united with the father in purpose only. However, the Jews pick up stones in verse 31 because they say that Jesus sets himself up as God, then in verse 39, after Jesus has had a chance to clarify his statement, and remove any doubt about what he said, they still want to arrest him/stone him/whatever.

You are jumping...

31. "Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,"

32. "but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33. "The Jews answered him, saying : 'For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself a God.'" (John 10:31-33).

So what he said:

34. "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods'?" 

35. "If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came --and the Scripture cannot be broken--," 

36. "what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God's Son'?" (John 10:34-36).

He is a bit sarcastic in verse 34, but in any event, why does he say: "Your Law"? He is obviously quoting from the 82nd Psalm , verse 6, "I have said, ye are gods: and all of you are the children of the most High."

Jesus, continues: "If he (i.e. God Almighty) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (meaning that the prophets of God were called 'gods') and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:35), in other words he is saying: "you can't contradict me!" Jesus knows his Scripture; he speaks with authority; and he reasons with his enemies that: "If good men, holy men, prophets of God are being addressed as 'gods' in our Books of Authority, with which you find no fault, then why do you take exception to me? When the only claim I make for myself is far inferior in our language, viz. 'A son of God' as against others being called 'gods' by God Himself. Even if I (Jesus) described myself as 'god' in our language, according to Hebrew usage, you could find no fault with me." This is the plain reading of Christian Scripture and many other Christians sects interpreted and understood the same context as Muslims. 

Salam

Wael

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