What to expect from prayer?

[voice of reason]

I tend to think logically, logic which is axiomatic, like math 2+2=4 no matter what objects designate numbered. Some things are logical and contradictions and paradoxes do not really exist except on paper. Take this for an example Something cannot be all red but yet have some green on it. Otherwise it is not ALL red.


That just covers a little of how I think. If I were to pray to a tree and received no reponse of ANY kind why would I pray to this tree?


If I were to pray to a statue and received no response at all, why would I continue to pray to this statue?


If I were to pray to a man across the world and did not receive any communication back why would I pray to this man?


If I were to pray to a spirit or a god and received no communication back why would I continue to pray to this being?


If Allah exists and has spoken to others then why am I any different? Does Allah pick favorites? That would be human bias.


I believe IF Allah exists then he gave me the reason I have. Therefore I am under no obligation to believe hearsay from someone else that told me Allah spoke to them.


This is extremely unfair hearsay is not accepted in a court of law because it is illogical. My reason then tells me that I should not accept hearsay evidence of any kind from any person. I may believe that person because they have shown to be honest but I cannot be absolute in my belief.


When I have prayed I have heard no response not physically or internally. Nothing at all. Perhaps if Allah exists I am not chosen, so He does not respond to me. All is predestined if Allah is an omnipotent being.


Perhaps I am predestined to be destroyed?


That is truly sad though, because I have sought after a god I have searched, and asked, and prayed for answers. Though no response.


I thought this to be a good healthy discussion because I was posed this question and that was my answer above in short. I can dialogue in much deeper detail.


Thanks an peace to all who respond,


Voice of Reason

[dattaswami]

<b>Stages In Worship Of Lord</b>



In the first stage, a servant is sitting and singing on the owner without doing any work. He is asking the remuneration for his song from the owner. The owner refuses remuneration because the singer has already got happiness by singing and that happiness itself is the remuneration. One cannot get two remunerations for single work even if you treat the singing as a work. In the second stage the servant is doing work and is also singing. The owner will pay for his work only but not for the song. The servant is singing while he is doing the work in order to get happiness to forget the tiredness in the work. Therefore, here also only the work is remunerated but not the song. In the third stage the servant is advised to stop singing because his energy is wasted in the song. If he works without singing all his energy can be concentrated in the work and the servant will get more remuneration. In this third stage it is only an advice but the servant is not blamed for singing. Singing is not wrong at all. But singing has no remuneration.


Similarly in the first stage people pray and express devotion without proving their love in action. In this stage the people are getting the peace and bliss by the prayers and expression of devotion. They cannot charge the Lord again for their prayers and devotion. In the second stage people participate in the mission of the Lord by sacrificing the work and the fruit of the work. While working for the Lord, they pray and sing devotional songs, which give them peace and happiness. Their prayers and songs are not wrong at all. But they will get the fruit from the Lord for their work only and not for their prayers (words) and for their devotion (mind).


In the third stage they are advised to stop the prayers and expression of devotion by practicing silence and control of mind. The reason for this is that they can store their energy, which is wasted in prayers, and devotion and which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. The energy wasted in these two channels can be diverted to the work only and more work can be done so that they can get a better fruit from the Lord. Of course, they should not expect any fruit for their work. Then only the Lord is pleased and will give the real fruit. But if they concentrate all their energy in the work only, they can get a better real fruit from the Lord though they do not aspire for any fruit.


Please note that we are not finding fault with the prayers and devotion. We are only saying that you are wasting your energy in those two channels, which cannot bring any fruit from the Lord. If you control those two channels, better fruit is given to you. If you need relaxation by prayers and devotion, you will be in the second stage. Therefore there is no contradiction because in the third stage it is only an advice in the light of Yoga. Yoga means concentration of the entire energy in one channel that is useful. The root word of Yoga is “Yuj”, which means to unite the dissipated streams of energy in various useless channels and concentrate the whole energy as a single stream in the useful channel.


The third stage is the highest stage. Hanuman never uttered prayers and never expressed devotional feelings on the Lord as per the Valmiki Ramayana, which is the only authority. Hanuman concentrated all His energy in the work of Lord Rama. Lord Rama also never expressed His love through words or feelings on Hanuman. He also gave silently the highest real fruit to Hanuman, which is the post of future creator (Brahma). Veda says “Yato Vacho Nivartante Apraapya Manasaasah”. This means that the words and mind cannot touch the Lord and will return back to you only. He will never hear your prayers and will never observe your ex-pression of devotional feelings. The reason is that they are giving you the immediate fruit, which is peace, happiness and satisfaction. It is like a self-employment scheme.


Since the fruit is immediate and automatic the Lord need not pay any attention. But when you work for Him by sacrifice, you are not getting the peace, happiness and satisfaction. When you offer the sweet to the Lord you are suffering with hunger though you may feel it as happiness. But the Lord is not a sadist. He will pay His attention to you and will give you the real fruit. Therefore in this highest stage silence and control of mind are recommended by Gita also (Mounam Atma Vinigrahah).


In the second stage by prayers and devotion, you are eating the sweet. Why should the Lord pay attention for that because you are getting the enjoyment in eating the sweet? Shall He give you the cost of the sweet to you for your eating? When you give the sweet to Him without aspiring for its cost, the Lord will be pleased for your sacrifice, which alone can prove your real love on Him and then reward you with real infinite fruit at the appropriate time and place. He will delay in giving the fruit since He wants to see you whether you have sacrificed the fruit expecting something in return.


If you have sacrificed the sweet in terms of business, you will come out with your real color in the time of delay done by the Lord. The Lord is the top most genius.


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami


Anil Antony


www.universal-spirituality.org


Universal Spirituality for World Peace


antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

[wel_mel_2]

I tend to think logically, logic which is axiomatic, like math 2+2=4 no matter what objects designate numbered. Some things are logical and contradictions and paradoxes do not really exist except on paper. Take this for an example Something cannot be all red but yet have some green on it. Otherwise it is not ALL red.


That just covers a little of how I think. If I were to pray to a tree and received no reponse of ANY kind why would I pray to this tree?


If I were to pray to a statue and received no response at all, why would I continue to pray to this statue?


If I were to pray to a man across the world and did not receive any communication back why would I pray to this man?


If I were to pray to a spirit or a god and received no communication back why would I continue to pray to this being?


If Allah exists and has spoken to others then why am I any different? Does Allah pick favorites? That would be human bias.


I believe IF Allah exists then he gave me the reason I have. Therefore I am under no obligation to believe hearsay from someone else that told me Allah spoke to them.


This is extremely unfair hearsay is not accepted in a court of law because it is illogical. My reason then tells me that I should not accept hearsay evidence of any kind from any person. I may believe that person because they have shown to be honest but I cannot be absolute in my belief.


When I have prayed I have heard no response not physically or internally. Nothing at all. Perhaps if Allah exists I am not chosen, so He does not respond to me. All is predestined if Allah is an omnipotent being.


Perhaps I am predestined to be destroyed?


That is truly sad though, because I have sought after a god I have searched, and asked, and prayed for answers. Though no response.


I thought this to be a good healthy discussion because I was posed this question and that was my answer above in short. I can dialogue in much deeper detail.


Thanks an peace to all who respond,


Voice of Reason

Ok here is my personal opinion.


It is mentioned in the Qur’an chapter 40 verse 60


“And your Lord says: “Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer): <b>but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell – in humiliation!”</b>



So maybe you are praying but at the same time you do not really feel that it is right to do such thing, or maybe God Almighty still want to test your patience and see whether you will keep on asking for guidance or you will just give up?


Many people went through this same experience, but they knew for sure that <b>there is</b> a Creator for this universe but they didn't know who is He!!, and so they kept on searching and asking this <b>UNKNOWN</b> Creator for guidance and Alhamdulelah they were guided, and even some of them now are Scholars of Islam, like Bilal Philips for example.


So my advise to you my friend is, <b>don’t give up
</b>. Keep on praying with conviction, with feelings that you are in need of help, be sure that one day you are going to be guided by God, and that this Unknown Creator is going to respond one day. Insha’Allah. but He alone knows when would be the right time. because He also tells us in the Qur'an:


chapter 2 verse 216:


“But it is possible that ye dislike a thing <b>which is good for you</b>, and that ye love a thing <b>which is bad for you</b>. <b>But Allah knows, and you know not</b>.”



So keep on asking for guidance, and let Him decide the time.


Try to <b>prostrate yourself </b> before Him and ask Him sincerely for guidance, cry, weep and I too am going to ask Him to guide you to His right path. may He guide all of us to the straight way, Insha'Allah.


I wish to hear more opinions on this <b>very important </b> subject. Thank you all.


Salam


Wael.

[dattaswami]

Ok here is my personal opinion.


It is mentioned in the Qur’an chapter 40 verse 60


“And your Lord says: “Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer): <b>but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell – in humiliation!”</b>



So maybe you are praying but at the same time you do not really feel that it is right to do such thing, or maybe God Almighty still want to test your patience and see whether you will keep on asking for guidance or you will just give up?


Many people went through this same experience, but they knew for sure that <b>there is</b> a Creator for this universe but they didn't know who is He!!, and so they kept on searching and asking this <b>UNKNOWN</b> Creator for guidance and Alhamdulelah they were guided, and even some of them now are Scholars of Islam, like Bilal Philips for example.


So my advise to you my friend is, <b>don’t give up
</b>. Keep on praying with conviction, with feelings that you are in need of help, be sure that one day you are going to be guided by God, and that this Unknown Creator is going to respond one day. Insha’Allah. but He alone knows when would be the right time. because He also tells us in the Qur'an:


chapter 2 verse 216:


“But it is possible that ye dislike a thing <b>which is good for you</b>, and that ye love a thing <b>which is bad for you</b>. <b>But Allah knows, and you know not</b>.”



So keep on asking for guidance, and let Him decide the time.


Try to <b>prostrate yourself </b> before Him and ask Him sincerely for guidance, cry, weep and I too am going to ask Him to guide you to His right path. may He guide all of us to the straight way, Insha'Allah.


I wish to hear more opinions on this <b>very important </b> subject. Thank you all.


Salam


Wael.

Hi i have a point to make,


<b></b>


Why one should ask some worldly things?


You are doing worship and service to God. However, you are asking some worldly desires. For all this, you are forgetting that God Himself is the highest fruit. You can get infinite happiness even by singing a song on Him. Then how much bliss you get from serving Him? Then you are getting the infinite bliss directly from the worship and service of God. Why should you ask some worldly benefit which does not give even a trace of happiness and instead gives misery only?


You are given a pot with divine nectar. You are selling it in a hotel for a cup of sugarless coffee. Therefore the devotees, who have tasted the bliss from His knowledge and from the devotion to Him, never ask for any other fruit. After all, the aim of the boon is only to get happiness. When you are deriving it in infinite quantity directly from God, why should you sell God for getting misery? The rich people who are blessed by God for their prayers are not at all happy.


They are running to the spiritual people for getting just a drop of the divine nectar.A real spiritual devotee will refuse to sell even a drop of divine nectar to these rich people because if he does so, he will become rich and will have the same fate. If you see Goddess Lakshmi who is pressing the feet of the Lord with Her both hands is gaining infinite bliss from the service of the Lord. The Lord has given infinite wealth to Her. She knows that the wealth gives only misery. Therefore she never feels that she is the possessor of that wealth.


She feels that she is the constant slave of the Lord. With just Her left hand, She is showering the inert gold coins, which give lot of misery only to the people who are craving for the wealth. While praying Goddess Lakshmi, we do not even understand Her nature and philosophy.


Parvati is very beautiful. She was serving Lord Shiva with all good qualities like obedience etc. Still Lord Shiva was not attracted to Her even though the stupid cupid tried for it. The Lord turned him into ash and disappeared. The external beauty (form of matter) and good qualities (forms of awareness) are considered as unreal only by the Lord.


However, when Parvati developed immense love through penance, the Lord tested whether such devotion was still attached to the external form and qualities. He came in disguise and discouraged Parvati about the frightening external form and the bad qualities about Shiva. But when the love of Parvati was proved to be above the external form and qualities, the Lord gave half of His body to Her. Later on He became even a slave of Her, keeping Himself under Her feet as you can see the dance of Kaali over Shiva.


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami


Anil Antony


www.universal-spirituality.org


Universal Spirituality for World Peace


antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

[WITNESS THE REAL]

Hi i have a point to make,


<b></b>


Why one should ask some worldly things?


You are doing worship and service to God. However, you are asking some worldly desires. For all this, you are forgetting that God Himself is the highest fruit. You can get infinite happiness even by singing a song on Him. Then how much bliss you get from serving Him? Then you are getting the infinite bliss directly from the worship and service of God. Why should you ask some worldly benefit which does not give even a trace of happiness and instead gives misery only?


You are given a pot with divine nectar. You are selling it in a hotel for a cup of sugarless coffee. Therefore the devotees, who have tasted the bliss from His knowledge and from the devotion to Him, never ask for any other fruit. After all, the aim of the boon is only to get happiness. When you are deriving it in infinite quantity directly from God, why should you sell God for getting misery? The rich people who are blessed by God for their prayers are not at all happy.


They are running to the spiritual people for getting just a drop of the divine nectar.A real spiritual devotee will refuse to sell even a drop of divine nectar to these rich people because if he does so, he will become rich and will have the same fate. If you see Goddess Lakshmi who is pressing the feet of the Lord with Her both hands is gaining infinite bliss from the service of the Lord. The Lord has given infinite wealth to Her. She knows that the wealth gives only misery. Therefore she never feels that she is the possessor of that wealth.


She feels that she is the constant slave of the Lord. With just Her left hand, She is showering the inert gold coins, which give lot of misery only to the people who are craving for the wealth. While praying Goddess Lakshmi, we do not even understand Her nature and philosophy.


Parvati is very beautiful. She was serving Lord Shiva with all good qualities like obedience etc. Still Lord Shiva was not attracted to Her even though the stupid cupid tried for it. The Lord turned him into ash and disappeared. The external beauty (form of matter) and good qualities (forms of awareness) are considered as unreal only by the Lord.


However, when Parvati developed immense love through penance, the Lord tested whether such devotion was still attached to the external form and qualities. He came in disguise and discouraged Parvati about the frightening external form and the bad qualities about Shiva. But when the love of Parvati was proved to be above the external form and qualities, the Lord gave half of His body to Her. Later on He became even a slave of Her, keeping Himself under Her feet as you can see the dance of Kaali over Shiva.


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami


Anil Antony


www.universal-spirituality.org


Universal Spirituality for World Peace


antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

So you do not desire worldly things?

[dattaswami]

So you do not desire worldly things?

The ultimate aim of human life is to please Lord.


When one is in that aim and work for it, why should one bother about worldly activities, it will be carried out with full dignity and accuracy through God's will. One must strive for developing devotion to Lord. Divine knoweldge only induce love towards Lord. Our material desires should not become an obstacle to devotion. If our love material things and worldly things more than Lord then our devotion is not 100%, and pleasing of Lord is not 100%.


We must slowly withdraw ourselfs from worldly matters, and spent more and more time towards developing love towards Lord through serving Him in His mission of divine knoweldge propagation when He comes down in human form. We only should fulfill our responsibility to family members without any attachement. Our extent of Love to Lord decides our extent of attachemnt to Lord.


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami


Anil Antony


www.universal-spirituality.org


Universal Spirituality for World Peace


antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Hi i have a point to make,


<b></b>


Why one should ask some worldly things?

Asking Allah for health is worldly thing, asking Allah for peace in this world is worldly thing, asking Allah for some money to spend it in the way of God is also worldly thing. <b>So why one should NOT ask some worldly things from the One who created the worlds.</b>


Salam


Wael.

[WITNESS THE REAL]

The ultimate aim of human life is to please Lord.


When one is in that aim and work for it, why should one bother about worldly activities, it will be carried out with full dignity and accuracy through God's will. One must strive for developing devotion to Lord. Divine knoweldge only induce love towards Lord. Our material desires should not become an obstacle to devotion. If our love material things and worldly things more than Lord then our devotion is not 100%, and pleasing of Lord is not 100%.


We must slowly withdraw ourselfs from worldly matters, and spent more and more time towards developing love towards Lord through serving Him in His mission of divine knoweldge propagation when He comes down in human form. We only should fulfill our responsibility to family members without any attachement. Our extent of Love to Lord decides our extent of attachemnt to Lord.


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami


Anil Antony


www.universal-spirituality.org


Universal Spirituality for World Peace


antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

Are you attached to not-having, because if you are then you are still attached. It appears from your posts that you are very materialistic indeed, in-fact you are so materialistic that you keep trying to "incarnate Allah in human flesh" so that you might benefit by saying you are that incarnation.


I ask you do you desire worldly gain? This is the point for a dialogue.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam Voice of reason


Mash a Allah, not only this is an essential topic and a quest you are desiring an answer to, this is the core of interest of every human being.


but let me tell u, never take a delayed response Perhaps I am predestined to be destroyed?


. No way, Allah Is the Merciful. The minute you step one inch towards Allah, Allah Shall certainly Extend a Hand to pick you up. BTW voice, you dont even need to be certain while praying, since you are praying to be guided. I mean asking u to be certain will be illogical for the reason actually that triggered your need to pray is that u are not sure.


Am I making sense to you.


You know what Voice, you are not the only one in this Universe who went thru this phase, you know who else went thru this? can u guess? well not to loose the point, Prophet Abraham.


Yes Prophet Abraham went thru this Voice. And Alhamdulelah he was guided.


I have a suggestion and a question, when u r praying, are you praying in general for guidance to know whether or not a god exists or do you pray for some specific god?


I will wait for your answer before I continue Insh aAllah. :)

[dattaswami]

Are you attached to not-having, because if you are then you are still attached. It appears from your posts that you are very materialistic indeed, in-fact you are so materialistic that you keep trying to "incarnate Allah in human flesh" so that you might benefit by saying you are that incarnation.


I ask you do you desire worldly gain? This is the point for a dialogue.

<b>Should we not ask the Lord for help?</b>



================


If you are ordinary person you should follow the rules of your deeds and nature. If you are a devotee, even then, you should not ask God for help. Your devotion must not aspire any result. You are asking God for help means that you want God to violate his own natural rules. The impression of millions of angles and sages is disturbed if God violates his own rules. That will give a poor impression on God. You are putting God to inconvenience by forcing him to use his supernatural power. Whether you are a devotee or not, you must always try to solve your problems by putting your best effort. If you fail, even then, do not ask God to help you. Then, you think that it is your fate and worship God as usual. Arjuna was fighting with his grandfather, Bhishma. Arjuna was not putting up his best effort to kill Bhishma. He was having sympathy to Bhishma, who has brought up Arjuna. Noting this, Krishna took his Sudarshana chakra and ran to kill Bhishma.


That means the Lord tried to solve the problem of Arjuna through His divine power. Arjuna did not agree to this and forced Krishna to stop, because Arjuna knew about his inadequate effort. But when Sindhava was to be killed, Arjuna tried his best, because Arjuna took an oath to kill Sindhava before sunset and otherwise he promised that he would enter the fire. Since the sunset took place apparently due to the Maya of Krishna, Arjuna stopped fighting and wanted to enter the fire.


He was just going to jump into the fire but he never asked for help. He thought that was his fate. Therefore, the Lord helped him secretly. Therefore, if you put your best effort, still fail because it is beyond your limits, if you happen to be a real devotee and do not ask for the help from God, then you will be helped by the super power secretly. The secrecy is due to preservation of the sacredness of his administration in the eyes of others.


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami


Anil Antony