Who created God

[dattaswami]

<b>Who created God</b>



God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God. If you start recognizing the God by simply these two points (beginning-less and end-less), you may think that God is an imaginable item like the space or energy or the creation. In fact based on these two characteristics people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.


Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment. The very desire itself is the Creation. In view of God this present materialized universe in only an idea or imagination or the very desire itself. Therefore, the desire to create the world is itself the desire and also the created world itself is a desire. Thus the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the imaginary world are also imaginations or desires. A part of this infinite creation is the individual soul. The soul is like a drop of the infinite ocean of imagination or desire of God. Thus, quantitatively the entire ocean of imagination of God is very huge compared to the tiny soul. Remember that both the Universe and the tiny soul are made of the same substance called as imagination or desire. Thus the force of the Universe is far greater than the force of the soul. Due to such huge quantitative difference of the same phase, the Universe, which is far stronger than the soul appears as a materialized entity for the soul. But this infinite ocean of desire, which is the infinite Universe is a tiny drop compared to the infinite force of God. Therefore, again due to the same quantitative difference of force the entire universe is just the very weak imagination from the view of God. Thus imagination and materialization exist simultaneously true from the point of God and soul.


For the sake of entertainment, God desired to create the Universe. This statement is in Veda (Sa dviteeya Maicchat). In this statement there is a very subtle intermediate stage, which is the essence of the desire to create the Universe. The desire to create the world is like the golden ornament but the essence of such desire is like the raw gold in which the ornament is not yet expressed. Such raw essence of the desire is pure awareness. The pure awareness is a special subtle form of energy, which is not qualified by any form. Such pure awareness is called as the spirit, which is not qualified and does not have any attribute. This is called as “Nirguna Brahman”, which means the pure awareness, which has no reference to the creation of the universe. It is a very critical and subtle point to recognize the pure awareness. Veda says that only very very sharp intelligence can grasp that critical state (Drushyate Tvagraya bhuddhya). Sankara, the topmost genius among the spiritual preachers could grasp that state and proposed the concept of Nirguna Brahman or non-qualified pure awareness. Such pure awareness is the first creation of God (Parabrahman). This first creation is almost as critical and unimaginable as the very Parabrahman itself. The only difference is that Parabrahman is absolutely unimaginable for any sharp intelligence, but this pure awareness is imaginable only for a very sharp intelligence. This pure awareness is called as Mula Prakriti or Suddha Sattvam or Mula Avidya or Mula Maya or the Spirit in general. The Parabrahman maintains such spirit and it is only an associated item and is the first created item. The word Mula means the first. This spirit is in the form of knowledge. It is aware of itself, which means that it is knowledge. Knowledge requires both subjective and objective characteristics. It is subject as well as the object. Therefore, it is called as knowledge or Sattvam. This knowledge is the first form of energy.


Energy is always active. Action is the characteristic of Rajas. Such Spirit is unaware of its own creator who is the God. Therefore, it is having ignorance or Tamas. Thus, the Knowledge itself is action and ignorance. According to Gita Knowledge is Sattvam (Sattvaat Sanjayate Jnanam), action is Rajas (Rajah Karmani) and Ignorance is Tamas (Tamastva Jnanajam). Thus these three qualities are always inseparable. The pure knowledge (Suddha Sattvam) itself is pure action (Suddha Rajas), which is the pure ignorance (Suddha Tamas). Thus in the very first instant itself the three qualities are created simultaneously in the purest state. Since all these three co-exist, it is called as equilibrium of the three qualities. When the equilibrium is disturbed various items of awareness result in which the three qualities exist in various proportions. Such disturbance of the equilibrium resulting in various distorted items of the three qualities is the very creation. The various mixtures of these three qualities constitute this diversified universe, which is meant for the play of the God and for His entertainment. When the entertainment is over all the three qualities go into the equilibrium state. Thus the Universe is converted into Mula Prakruti.


God is in association with this Mula Prakruti in the beginning. At this stage the Mula Prakruti is only a creation or created item and cannot do anything further. Its equilibrium continues. In fact the Mula Prakruti is only inert and the continuation of such equilibrium is the inertia. God enters the Mula Prakruti and pervades it. Now this Mula Prakruti is electrified wire. It is the ignited stick and is called as fire. Now this Mula Prakruti becomes divine and is called as Brahman or the Holy Spirit. The Spirit, which is just the inert created item became Holy due to the existence of God in it. Now Brahman multiplies its little part of the Mula Prakruti in which, Parabrahman does not exist. This means that God enters ninety nine percent of Mula Prakruti and not one percent. This little part of un-divine Mula Prakruti is multiplied by the disturbed equilibrium and the Universe appears. Thus, the pure awareness in which God pervaded becomes Brahman. Now Brahman becomes the spectator of the Universe. The little pure awareness into which God did not enter is modified into the Universe in which God does not exist. Here the modification does not mean materialization. The modification means the undisturbed equilibrium being converted into disturbed equilibrium. In both the states the substance is only awareness. You can compare this to a day-dreamer’s mind. The mind of the day-dreamer is Mula Prakruti. A little part of the mind is converted into dream. The mind, which is not converted, is a spectator of the dream. The dreamer is identified with the spectator part of the mind. Thus the dreamer is witnessing the dream through his unmodified mind. The dreamer has not entered the dream and therefore is not multiplied.


When the dream city is burning neither the spectator part of the mind is burnt nor the dreamer. The spectator part of the mind itself can be treated as the dreamer because the dreamer entered that spectator part of the mind and exists in it. Thus, Brahman, the spectator of the Universe can be treated as Parabrahman. Such Parabrahman who is the spectator of the Universe is called as Eeshwara. Thus, Parabrahman is the original unimaginable creator. Mula Prakrithi is the first created item, which is the pure awareness. Brahman is the major part of pure awareness in which Parabrahman entered and occupied it. The same Brahman enjoying the Universe by vision is called as Eeshwara. Neither Parabrahman nor Brahman nor the Eeswara has entered the Universe, which is the disturbed equilibrium of the three qualities. Thus, there is no disturbance in either Parabrahman or Brahman or Eeshwara. In Christianity God is Parabrahman. Brahman and Eeshwara are called as the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the substance with which the Universe is made of. The spirit is not Holy because God did not occupy it. Thus the Universe is not Holy in Toto. It is Holy with reference to the good devotees and the divine incarnations. It is unholy with reference to bad living beings and Saturn. Parabrahman who is a spectator for sometime develops a desire to enter this Universe in the form of a living being especially as a human being because the main aim is to preach the divine knowledge.


Veda says the same (Tadevaanu Praavishat). This divine human being in which, Parabrahman or Brahman or Eeshwara exists is called as human incarnation or God in Flesh. The human incarnation consists of four items. The first item is God. The second item is the Mula Prakruti, which is the pure awareness or Brahman or Aatman or Karana Sareeram (Casual Body). The third item is the disturbed equilibrium of the three qualities called as Jeeva or Sukshma Sareera (Subtle Body). The fourth item is the Gross body made of five elements (Sthula Sareera) which is again imaginary only in view of God but a materialized form in view of other human beings. If you analyse any ordinary living being it contains all the three bodies except God. If we analyse any inert item of the world it contains only the Gross Body made of the five elements.






<b>God should be understood as the unimaginable creator. Next God can be understood as the unimaginable spectator of the world. Lastly, God should be understood as the unimaginable actor who has entered the Universal Drama in the form of Human Incarnation.</b>


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami


Anil Antony

[Deen]

Your question is incorrect and also sounds as if philosophy has got the better of you.


To cut the story short (as I am tired right now) <b>The limited cannot comprehend the unlimited.</b>As for god creating the universe for entertainment, this too is incorrect as to be entertained is a human attribute. Does that mean if god is not entertained then he would be bored? That is how ludicrous the argument is.


We should be using rational thought rather than philosophical thought.

[voice of reason]

<b>Who created God</b>



God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God. If you start recognizing the God by simply these two points (beginning-less and end-less), you may think that God is an imaginable item like the space or energy or the creation. In fact based on these two characteristics people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.


Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment. The very desire itself is the Creation. In view of God this present materialized universe in only an idea or imagination or the very desire itself. Therefore, the desire to create the world is itself the desire and also the created world itself is a desire. Thus the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the imaginary world are also imaginations or desires. A part of this infinite creation is the individual soul. The soul is like a drop of the infinite ocean of imagination or desire of God. Thus, quantitatively the entire ocean of imagination of God is very huge compared to the tiny soul. Remember that both the Universe and the tiny soul are made of the same substance called as imagination or desire. Thus the force of the Universe is far greater than the force of the soul. Due to such huge quantitative difference of the same phase, the Universe, which is far stronger than the soul appears as a materialized entity for the soul. But this infinite ocean of desire, which is the infinite Universe is a tiny drop compared to the infinite force of God. Therefore, again due to the same quantitative difference of force the entire universe is just the very weak imagination from the view of God. Thus imagination and materialization exist simultaneously true from the point of God and soul.


For the sake of entertainment, God desired to create the Universe. This statement is in Veda (Sa dviteeya Maicchat). In this statement there is a very subtle intermediate stage, which is the essence of the desire to create the Universe. The desire to create the world is like the golden ornament but the essence of such desire is like the raw gold in which the ornament is not yet expressed. Such raw essence of the desire is pure awareness. The pure awareness is a special subtle form of energy, which is not qualified by any form. Such pure awareness is called as the spirit, which is not qualified and does not have any attribute. This is called as “Nirguna Brahman”, which means the pure awareness, which has no reference to the creation of the universe. It is a very critical and subtle point to recognize the pure awareness. Veda says that only very very sharp intelligence can grasp that critical state (Drushyate Tvagraya bhuddhya). Sankara, the topmost genius among the spiritual preachers could grasp that state and proposed the concept of Nirguna Brahman or non-qualified pure awareness. Such pure awareness is the first creation of God (Parabrahman). This first creation is almost as critical and unimaginable as the very Parabrahman itself. The only difference is that Parabrahman is absolutely unimaginable for any sharp intelligence, but this pure awareness is imaginable only for a very sharp intelligence. This pure awareness is called as Mula Prakriti or Suddha Sattvam or Mula Avidya or Mula Maya or the Spirit in general. The Parabrahman maintains such spirit and it is only an associated item and is the first created item. The word Mula means the first. This spirit is in the form of knowledge. It is aware of itself, which means that it is knowledge. Knowledge requires both subjective and objective characteristics. It is subject as well as the object. Therefore, it is called as knowledge or Sattvam. This knowledge is the first form of energy.


Energy is always active. Action is the characteristic of Rajas. Such Spirit is unaware of its own creator who is the God. Therefore, it is having ignorance or Tamas. Thus, the Knowledge itself is action and ignorance. According to Gita Knowledge is Sattvam (Sattvaat Sanjayate Jnanam), action is Rajas (Rajah Karmani) and Ignorance is Tamas (Tamastva Jnanajam). Thus these three qualities are always inseparable. The pure knowledge (Suddha Sattvam) itself is pure action (Suddha Rajas), which is the pure ignorance (Suddha Tamas). Thus in the very first instant itself the three qualities are created simultaneously in the purest state. Since all these three co-exist, it is called as equilibrium of the three qualities. When the equilibrium is disturbed various items of awareness result in which the three qualities exist in various proportions. Such disturbance of the equilibrium resulting in various distorted items of the three qualities is the very creation. The various mixtures of these three qualities constitute this diversified universe, which is meant for the play of the God and for His entertainment. When the entertainment is over all the three qualities go into the equilibrium state. Thus the Universe is converted into Mula Prakruti.


God is in association with this Mula Prakruti in the beginning. At this stage the Mula Prakruti is only a creation or created item and cannot do anything further. Its equilibrium continues. In fact the Mula Prakruti is only inert and the continuation of such equilibrium is the inertia. God enters the Mula Prakruti and pervades it. Now this Mula Prakruti is electrified wire. It is the ignited stick and is called as fire. Now this Mula Prakruti becomes divine and is called as Brahman or the Holy Spirit. The Spirit, which is just the inert created item became Holy due to the existence of God in it. Now Brahman multiplies its little part of the Mula Prakruti in which, Parabrahman does not exist. This means that God enters ninety nine percent of Mula Prakruti and not one percent. This little part of un-divine Mula Prakruti is multiplied by the disturbed equilibrium and the Universe appears. Thus, the pure awareness in which God pervaded becomes Brahman. Now Brahman becomes the spectator of the Universe. The little pure awareness into which God did not enter is modified into the Universe in which God does not exist. Here the modification does not mean materialization. The modification means the undisturbed equilibrium being converted into disturbed equilibrium. In both the states the substance is only awareness. You can compare this to a day-dreamer’s mind. The mind of the day-dreamer is Mula Prakruti. A little part of the mind is converted into dream. The mind, which is not converted, is a spectator of the dream. The dreamer is identified with the spectator part of the mind. Thus the dreamer is witnessing the dream through his unmodified mind. The dreamer has not entered the dream and therefore is not multiplied.


When the dream city is burning neither the spectator part of the mind is burnt nor the dreamer. The spectator part of the mind itself can be treated as the dreamer because the dreamer entered that spectator part of the mind and exists in it. Thus, Brahman, the spectator of the Universe can be treated as Parabrahman. Such Parabrahman who is the spectator of the Universe is called as Eeshwara. Thus, Parabrahman is the original unimaginable creator. Mula Prakrithi is the first created item, which is the pure awareness. Brahman is the major part of pure awareness in which Parabrahman entered and occupied it. The same Brahman enjoying the Universe by vision is called as Eeshwara. Neither Parabrahman nor Brahman nor the Eeswara has entered the Universe, which is the disturbed equilibrium of the three qualities. Thus, there is no disturbance in either Parabrahman or Brahman or Eeshwara. In Christianity God is Parabrahman. Brahman and Eeshwara are called as the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the substance with which the Universe is made of. The spirit is not Holy because God did not occupy it. Thus the Universe is not Holy in Toto. It is Holy with reference to the good devotees and the divine incarnations. It is unholy with reference to bad living beings and Saturn. Parabrahman who is a spectator for sometime develops a desire to enter this Universe in the form of a living being especially as a human being because the main aim is to preach the divine knowledge.


Veda says the same (Tadevaanu Praavishat). This divine human being in which, Parabrahman or Brahman or Eeshwara exists is called as human incarnation or God in Flesh. The human incarnation consists of four items. The first item is God. The second item is the Mula Prakruti, which is the pure awareness or Brahman or Aatman or Karana Sareeram (Casual Body). The third item is the disturbed equilibrium of the three qualities called as Jeeva or Sukshma Sareera (Subtle Body). The fourth item is the Gross body made of five elements (Sthula Sareera) which is again imaginary only in view of God but a materialized form in view of other human beings. If you analyse any ordinary living being it contains all the three bodies except God. If we analyse any inert item of the world it contains only the Gross Body made of the five elements.






<b>God should be understood as the unimaginable creator. Next God can be understood as the unimaginable spectator of the world. Lastly, God should be understood as the unimaginable actor who has entered the Universal Drama in the form of Human Incarnation.</b>


At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami


Anil Antony


www.universal-spirituality.org


Universal Spirituality for World Peace


antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

Your post begs the question (which for those who do not know is logical fallacy) You have not proven a god exists.


I can sum this up, everything has a beginning and an end, so something had to create the beginning. This simply is the cosmological argument for the existence of a god.


It is refuted in a couple ways.


First perhaps the universe itself has no beginning and no end? It is indeed eternal.


Also if EVERYTHING has a beginning and end then I ask what created god? That is a fair question.


God would be included in EVERYTHING and if EVERTHING has a beginning and end then so must god or your logic is off base.


Peace to all,


Voice of Reason

[dattaswami]

Your post begs the question (which for those who do not know is logical fallacy) You have not proven a god exists.


I can sum this up, everything has a beginning and an end, so something had to create the beginning. This simply is the cosmological argument for the existence of a god.


It is refuted in a couple ways.


First perhaps the universe itself has no beginning and no end? It is indeed eternal.


Also if EVERYTHING has a beginning and end then I ask what created god? That is a fair question.


God would be included in EVERYTHING and if EVERTHING has a beginning and end then so must god or your logic is off base.


Peace to all,


Voice of Reason

<b>Whenever you think about God, the thinking itself is a form made of awareness or mind, even though you claim that you are thinking about formless God. You can never think any thing, which is formless because your thinking itself is a form. The form may have some specific boundaries like a statue. The form may not have specific boundaries like air or water. But the air or water also has some regular or irregular boundaries since the air or water has certain limits.</b> You call the space as formless object. But the space has some limitations somewhere and you do not perceive those limits. Such limits may not be perceived but certainly exist. Therefore, the concept of your formless object has some boundaries, which are either irregular or not perceived. When you think God as awareness (Chit), the awareness is mind, which is nervous energy. Energy is in the form of waves and thus cannot be formless. According to the special theory of relativity of Einstein, the space is also a form of energy because space exhibits the property of bending. In that case, the space also cannot be formless. Even if you consider the space as infinite vacuum, you are aware of the space. Such awareness itself means that space has become a form of awareness or mental energy. <b>Therefore, strictly speaking there is no formless object in the creation.</b> You are calling the object, which has either irregular or infinite boundaries, which are imagined, as formless. Since, such formless object also is a form in strict sense. Formless concept is impossible.


Therefore, whether you say that God created the space or God created the energy in the beginning, both statements mean the same because space is also a form of energy only. Veda said that Para Brahman created the space in the beginning (Atmana Akasah..). The Veda says again that Para Brahman created energy in the beginning (Tat Tejo..). Both the Vedic statements mean the same in terms of the latest concept of Science. However, let such space or energy be called as formless God in your language. Even to think such formless God, it becomes very very difficult for any ordinary human being. Even a scholar cannot maintain such concept in his mind for a long time.<b> Even if you maintain such concept, such God is not the absolute God because absolute God is completely unimaginable as per Veda and Gita (Yasyaa matam…., Mamtu Veda Na…). </b>God imagined as space or awareness (mental energy) is not the absolute the God, who is beyond space and awareness. Veda says that God created space. Veda says that God is beyond awareness. <b>The creator is always beyond the creation. </b>Even in the absence of the creation, the creator must exist. According to Brahma Sutras, God is the cause of this Universe as creator and is the material cause also. The pot maker is the creator of the pot. The mud is the material cause of the pot. Even in the absence of pot, the pot maker and the mud exist. <b>Therefore, God existed even before the creation of the Universe.</b>


The pot maker and mud exists even after the destruction of the pot. Similarly, after the destruction of the world also God must exist. Similarly God must exist before the creation of the space and after the dissolution of the space. You can never imagine the situation, which is before the creation or after dissolution of space. <b>Your intelligence cannot cross the special dimensions and therefore cannot cross the concept of space. That means you can never imagine the God. Veda says that God alone knows God (Brahma vit Brahmaiva…).</b>






<b>Therefore, when you imagine God as the all-pervading space, such imagination itself is an item of creation only.</b> Such imagination is only the incarnation of the God. When you imagine Him as space, God has entered the space and God is in the space. <b>Similarly, if you imagine God as all pervading energy, you have imagined the energy only in which God is present. </b>Therefore, you perceive God as space or inert energy or mental energy (awareness) and such form of God is only the incarnation of God in the form of space or inert energy or awareness. <b>This means you can perceive only the incarnation of God and never the absolute God.</b>



At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami


Anil Antony


www.universal-spirituality.org


Universal Spirituality for World Peace


antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

[voice of reason]

<b>Whenever you think about God, the thinking itself is a form made of awareness or mind, even though you claim that you are thinking about formless God. You can never think any thing, which is formless because your thinking itself is a form. The form may have some specific boundaries like a statue. The form may not have specific boundaries like air or water. But the air or water also has some regular or irregular boundaries since the air or water has certain limits.</b> You call the space as formless object. But the space has some limitations somewhere and you do not perceive those limits. Such limits may not be perceived but certainly exist. Therefore, the concept of your formless object has some boundaries, which are either irregular or not perceived. When you think God as awareness (Chit), the awareness is mind, which is nervous energy. Energy is in the form of waves and thus cannot be formless. According to the special theory of relativity of Einstein, the space is also a form of energy because space exhibits the property of bending. In that case, the space also cannot be formless. Even if you consider the space as infinite vacuum, you are aware of the space. Such awareness itself means that space has become a form of awareness or mental energy. <b>Therefore, strictly speaking there is no formless object in the creation.</b> You are calling the object, which has either irregular or infinite boundaries, which are imagined, as formless. Since, such formless object also is a form in strict sense. Formless concept is impossible.


Therefore, whether you say that God created the space or God created the energy in the beginning, both statements mean the same because space is also a form of energy only. Veda said that Para Brahman created the space in the beginning (Atmana Akasah..). The Veda says again that Para Brahman created energy in the beginning (Tat Tejo..). Both the Vedic statements mean the same in terms of the latest concept of Science. However, let such space or energy be called as formless God in your language. Even to think such formless God, it becomes very very difficult for any ordinary human being. Even a scholar cannot maintain such concept in his mind for a long time.<b> Even if you maintain such concept, such God is not the absolute God because absolute God is completely unimaginable as per Veda and Gita (Yasyaa matam…., Mamtu Veda Na…). </b>God imagined as space or awareness (mental energy) is not the absolute the God, who is beyond space and awareness. Veda says that God created space. Veda says that God is beyond awareness. <b>The creator is always beyond the creation. </b>Even in the absence of the creation, the creator must exist. According to Brahma Sutras, God is the cause of this Universe as creator and is the material cause also. The pot maker is the creator of the pot. The mud is the material cause of the pot. Even in the absence of pot, the pot maker and the mud exist. <b>Therefore, God existed even before the creation of the Universe.</b>


The pot maker and mud exists even after the destruction of the pot. Similarly, after the destruction of the world also God must exist. Similarly God must exist before the creation of the space and after the dissolution of the space. You can never imagine the situation, which is before the creation or after dissolution of space. <b>Your intelligence cannot cross the special dimensions and therefore cannot cross the concept of space. That means you can never imagine the God. Veda says that God alone knows God (Brahma vit Brahmaiva…).</b>






<b>Therefore, when you imagine God as the all-pervading space, such imagination itself is an item of creation only.</b> Such imagination is only the incarnation of the God. When you imagine Him as space, God has entered the space and God is in the space. <b>Similarly, if you imagine God as all pervading energy, you have imagined the energy only in which God is present. </b>Therefore, you perceive God as space or inert energy or mental energy (awareness) and such form of God is only the incarnation of God in the form of space or inert energy or awareness. <b>This means you can perceive only the incarnation of God and never the absolute God.</b>



At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami


Anil Antony


www.universal-spirituality.org


Universal Spirituality for World Peace


antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

So then to sum up then god is beyond time and space? Is that what you are alluding too? Well anything beyond time and space simply does not exist.


When you state a beginning, do you mean the beginning of time when the universe was created? That is quite illogical, think about what you saying. Something existed before time but yet time had to also encompass this being. IF there is an order of creation then TIME is important. So then it is illogical to say a being is beyond time and space.


Anything outside of time and space does not exist and you have offered no evidence that such does.


Peace to you,


Voice of Reason

[dattaswami]

So then to sum up then god is beyond time and space? Is that what you are alluding too? Well anything beyond time and space simply does not exist.


When you state a beginning, do you mean the beginning of time when the universe was created? That is quite illogical, think about what you saying. Something existed before time but yet time had to also encompass this being. IF there is an order of creation then TIME is important. So then it is illogical to say a being is beyond time and space.


Anything outside of time and space does not exist and you have offered no evidence that such does.


Peace to you,


Voice of Reason

Voice of reason;


I told you God is beyond our comprehension, the space time frame work was created by Him and Hence cannot touch Him He is beyond space and time, but we human beings are created items and hence we can imagine these items. But God is beyond our imagniantion.


God is only unimagninable for us, but He exists, His existance we cannot comprehende, but HE gives His expereicece through a finest item of the creation i.e., human body, He comes in Human form and gives His experieince through that human form He is known as Human Incarnation. This is the only way by which we can 'experience Him', still we cannot understand Him fully.


Lord comes in Human form in every human genration to preach and uplift the human souls and those poeple who really wish to see Him talk to Him colive with Him get the facility of all these through Human Incarnation. He preaches wonderful knowledge which nobody else can preach.


God is unimaginable, uncomprehendable and beyond logic. The creation is the imagination of the Lord. 1%(qualitatively) of His imagination was converted into 'pure awareness' and does not contain God and 100% of this pureawarness has become the universe. Thus God does not exist in the creation. The creator is above creation and is unaffected by it.


The aim of the creation was the entertainment of Lord. God enters the creation through the finest item of the creation, i.e. human being. He enters the human body for giving His presence to the world. By doing so, He is not modified into that human body or soul. He is then known as 'Human Incarnation". He gives the facility of touch, talk and seeing to His dearest devotees who really wished to serve Him. Only His devotees identify Him rest all will mock Him seeing His human body.


The identification mark of Lord in Human form is the 'True Divine Knowledge', which removes our ignorance without any trace. He also does miracles whenever there is an urgency, and not for 'crowd pulling' or 'show'. He Himself is the founder of the rules of nature. By doing miracles He is violating His own rules, it is a violation of His own administration, thus He performs miracles whenever there is a great necessity. He should be identified by His divine knowledge.


God comes in every human generation in human form for the upliftment of Souls.

[voice of reason]

Voice of reason;


I told you God is beyond our comprehension, the space time frame work was created by Him and Hence cannot touch Him He is beyond space and time, but we human beings are created items and hence we can imagine these items. But God is beyond our imagniantion.


God is only unimagninable for us, but He exists, His existance we cannot comprehende, but HE gives His expereicece through a finest item of the creation i.e., human body, He comes in Human form and gives His experieince through that human form He is known as Human Incarnation. This is the only way by which we can 'experience Him', still we cannot understand Him fully.


Lord comes in Human form in every human genration to preach and uplift the human souls and those poeple who really wish to see Him talk to Him colive with Him get the facility of all these through Human Incarnation. He preaches wonderful knowledge which nobody else can preach.


God is unimaginable, uncomprehendable and beyond logic. The creation is the imagination of the Lord. 1%(qualitatively) of His imagination was converted into 'pure awareness' and does not contain God and 100% of this pureawarness has become the universe. Thus God does not exist in the creation. The creator is above creation and is unaffected by it.


The aim of the creation was the entertainment of Lord. God enters the creation through the finest item of the creation, i.e. human being. He enters the human body for giving His presence to the world. By doing so, He is not modified into that human body or soul. He is then known as 'Human Incarnation". He gives the facility of touch, talk and seeing to His dearest devotees who really wished to serve Him. Only His devotees identify Him rest all will mock Him seeing His human body.


The identification mark of Lord in Human form is the 'True Divine Knowledge', which removes our ignorance without any trace. He also does miracles whenever there is an urgency, and not for 'crowd pulling' or 'show'. He Himself is the founder of the rules of nature. By doing miracles He is violating His own rules, it is a violation of His own administration, thus He performs miracles whenever there is a great necessity. He should be identified by His divine knowledge.


God comes in every human generation in human form for the upliftment of Souls.

Again you beg the question, you have not proven a god exists, he is beyond our comprehension? Then how can you comprehend a god exists? This makes no logical sense at all.


Nothing is beyond logic, logic is axiomatic like mathematics. 2+2 =4 no matter how you approach it. Also logic is axiomatic something cannot exist, and not exist at the same time. That is a paradox and paradoxes only exist in mind and on paper, they are logical impossible.


Yes there is that which is impossible such as I noted above and many, many more.


Peace to you,


Voice of Reason

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

<b>Who created God</b>

I just would like to repeat what brother Deen have said earlier that the question itself is incorrect, it is like you are telling me that <i>‘today my brother Tom give birth, can you tell me whether the child is boy or a girl?”</i> <b>it is absurdity.</b>


However, for those who say<i> ‘we do not believe in God’</i> they must at least tell us what is the definition of that God!! For a person to say there is no God, he should at least know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognize or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, <b>he should at least know the concept of God. </b>


Salam


Wael

[Deen]

The thing is that no one can prove Allah SWT does not exist, but you can prove that He does exist by using the Aql which Allah SWT has given us.


As for what form the creator takes that is an irrational argument.


When we comprehend the creator, we do not comprehend his essence but we comprehend his existence by observing man, life and universe. This is because we generate a thought based upon our senses and the use of previous information. What we sense is man, life and universe. We cannot pass a judgement on what is beyond the universe as we cannot sense it with our senses!

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam


I felt that I m moved to give an input. I waited for sometime trying to see what datt, has to offer. I was alway anxious to know more how hinus go with their faith.


I was stopped at two positions the most.


First like my brother deen was also caught by surprise the fact that god created this universe for entertainment. Like god had nothing to do, thus suddenly decided o well, let me create the universe. However, when u study the creation of the universe, and here when I refer to universe I mean all. Everything, how can god create earth, then pin it down with mountains that protects it against flying off or moving under our feet. Just one example. How can this be for entertainment. While if the GOD was only seeking entertainment from the creation, what would motivate me to take anything serious during my short transit trip here on earth?


God should be understood as the unimaginable creator. Next God can be understood as the unimaginable spectator of the world.



As for this statement which is obviously something like part of the fundamental of the faith. Sobhan Allah (just in case Voice of reason would wonder this means Glory be to Allah), i m really amazed how can he build his faith, I mean if u r directing people as to how to understand god, the first part says that he is the unimaginable creator. But concurrently he is only a spectator. Wow, how can a creator assume only a spectator role. la hawla wala qowata ila billah (no mighty or power unless by Allah). For intance I feel really comfortable and secure to know and be sure that my Creator Allah, jala wa al`a is the All Alive, One Who does not sleep for a fraction of a second, The Eternal The Protector, and much more. Obviously, One Who Possesses all thos attributes can not be merely a spectator. A spectator, if I understand english, is one who just sits to watch, one who is not charged with a vital role, but rather watching the players do their job whereever it is. Even in the modern time as the language is evolving, terms like key players are now used in the context of important elements in any given domain: political, investment, economic..etc. So datt made his god not even in the rank of a key player but just a spectator. If the creator does nothing but watch, then who runs the universe, I wonder?


:conf06: