Why Mecca?

[Steve Consilvio]

I think there is a lot of golden calf type worship in all of the world's religions (and non-religions, too.)


For example, the Jews have the wailing wall, Catholics have the Vatican, etc., sacred objects abound. The Statue of Liberty or Mount Rushmore are other such icons of men worshiping things that they made with their hands.


As I understand it, Mecca is just a big brick.


Even if it were the site where Abraham entertained God, why would that make the site special? It strikes me that it is just another form of pagan worship, only the object chosen is different.


The reverence towards inanimate objects and places pollutes and distracts from The Spirit.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam Steve


Thank you for raising this question and let me help you clear out this confusion.


Actually, we dont worship Mecca.


Mecca is a city that was lent sanctity by Allah, through this sanctity, everything is secured. I mean birds, animals, ..etc. We are not allowed to hunt or kill within the borders of the sanctity domain.


What is in Mecca? Mecca contains Ka`aba, which is the black box you are referring to. No we dont worship the black box, we worship the Lord of the black box Allah.


The black box is called Ka`ba.


What is Ka`ba?


Here is a good thread on it:


http://islamsms.com/bb/index.php?showtopic=3636&hl=


But to be brief:


1. It is where we face to perform prayer, we circle around it as part of Haj and Umra rituals. No not to worship it, but to fulfil Allah's Command to do so. Thus, you can simply say, circling around Ka`ba = prayer. A worhip but to Allah not to the black box.


2. It was built by the angles, demolished and reconstructed by Adam when he came down to earth.


3. Ibraheem and Ishmael - prayer and peace be upon both of them - re built it when it was demolished by a command of Allah.


4. It is where Ibraheem prayer and peace be upon him left his only son then (Ishmaeel) and his wife Hajar as per a command from Allah.


Insh aAllah this reply is satsifactory, if not let me know :)

[Steve Consilvio]

"satisfactory" is an open-ened construct. Satisfactory for whom?


But no, it is not. God (Allah) built the entire universe, everywhere is sacred, so why should this object or place be anymore sacred than anyother?


I understand that it may hold spiritual or historical significance, but isn't it the Spirit that is significant, and not the object itself?


If we get to the idea of "sacred" then does anyone "own" a sacred object? My questioning has to do with why others (non-Muslims) are not allowed in Mecca. (Some even say we defile it, which is more odd, since how can a mere man defile that which is sacred?)


It would seem that someone has set themselves up as a gatekeeper in Mecca, which is similar to priests in the Catholic Church consecrating the Eucharist. Does Allah not exist outside the authority of these organizations? These traditions do not seem Spiritual in the sense of a merciful God, but seem familiar in the bad habits of mortal men and their quest for power through exclusion, rather than equality with cooperation. (Much of the wars in the Mideast seem to stem from this idea of who "deserves" the land.)


Take for example the Ten Commanments. If we had the orginal stones, is it the words that are holy and wise or the stones themselves? Where are the tablets today? Is it not possible that once the words were written on man's hearts, the icon of the stones was simply a burden? Or perhaps they were lost because men gave too much attention to the stone, and not to the words written on them. Either way, much blood has been spilled in Eden. How can we see the Garden if we are worshipping a tree?


If we see false disctictions like Pagan, Jew, Christian and Muslim, has our trust in our reason made us more blind, rather than more attune to the Spirit? If the Spirit is One, then don't all customs that divide us either need to unite or fall away? Since man is sinful, it seems to me to be more likely the later than the former.


If I wanted to hold a Christian communion service in Mecca, then what would be the response to my request? Is the Spirit barred?


Is not Jesus the sacrifice that Abraham was asked to make? God has done that which He asked of Abraham. Just as Abraham had faith and trust in God, so too does God have faith and trust in man.


It is not the alter that sanctifies the sacrifice, but the Holy Spirit. Though many prophets are stoned, who is the sacrificial lamb?


There are many things I do not know, and I do not question the sincerity of worship, but I do question. If man is at war still, then certainly there are things in our traditions that are dividing us which should be uniting us. Even Muslims cannot get along any better with each other than Jews and Christians.


Trust the Spirit,


Steve

[Yusef_aka_Joseph]

Well Steve, your All over the place, lol.


Ok Steve, in answer to your response "Why Mecca?" I must say that you are so sorely mistaken if you think that Muslims are indeed worshipping a black box, much like Isreal worshipped the Golden Calf. This is not so and couldnt be further from the truth.


Allah commanded Muslims through the Qu'ran, that when we are making prayer, we face the Ka'ba (black box), for the significance as stated above by my brother or sister in faith, Muslimah. This form of worship (circling the Ka'ba during Hajj) is the exact same worship being preformed by the countless number of angels circling the Throne of Allah/God in the Heavens.


Now you raised many questions, which I cant answer, nor understand, but if you can clarify, perhaps question by question, I'd like to give an answer to your questions, if I can!


It seems to me, by your writing, your understanding of certain events which happened in your religions' scripture (im assuming the Gospel)needs to be clarified before we can move along any further on this topic. Such as:


"If we see false disctictions like Pagan, Jew, Christian and Muslim, has our trust in our reason made us more blind, rather than more attune to the Spirit? If the Spirit is One, then don't all customs that divide us either need to unite or fall away? Since man is sinful, it seems to me to be more likely the later than the former."


"Is not Jesus the sacrifice that Abraham was asked to make? God has done that which He asked of Abraham. Just as Abraham had faith and trust in God, so too does God have faith and trust in man."


and


"It is not the alter that sanctifies the sacrifice, but the Holy Spirit. Though many prophets are stoned, who is the sacrificial lamb?"


plus you seem to be writing about this "spirit" (the holy spirit I assume)-what spirit are you talking about, and why do you want us to trust it? Please ellaborate


No disrespect, much love-May Allah guide us all in the quest for understanding! Subhana Allah!

[AlShamms]

Well Steve, your All over the place, lol.


Ok Steve, in answer to your response "Why Mecca?" I must say that you are so sorely mistaken if you think that Muslims are indeed worshipping a black box, much like Isreal worshipped the Golden Calf. This is not so and couldnt be further from the truth.


Allah commanded Muslims through the Qu'ran, that when we are making prayer, we face the Ka'ba (black box), for the significance as stated above by my brother or sister in faith, Muslimah. This form of worship (circling the Ka'ba during Hajj) is the exact same worship being preformed by the countless number of angels circling the Throne of Allah/God in the Heavens.


Now you raised many questions, which I cant answer, nor understand, but if you can clarify, perhaps question by question, I'd like to give an answer to your questions, if I can!


It seems to me, by your writing, your understanding of certain events which happened in your religions' scripture (im assuming the Gospel)needs to be clarified before we can move along any further on this topic. Such as:


"If we see false disctictions like Pagan, Jew, Christian and Muslim, has our trust in our reason made us more blind, rather than more attune to the Spirit? If the Spirit is One, then don't all customs that divide us either need to unite or fall away? Since man is sinful, it seems to me to be more likely the later than the former."


"Is not Jesus the sacrifice that Abraham was asked to make? God has done that which He asked of Abraham. Just as Abraham had faith and trust in God, so too does God have faith and trust in man."


and


"It is not the alter that sanctifies the sacrifice, but the Holy Spirit. Though many prophets are stoned, who is the sacrificial lamb?"


plus you seem to be writing about this "spirit" (the holy spirit I assume)-what spirit are you talking about, and why do you want us to trust it? Please ellaborate


No disrespect, much love-May Allah guide us all in the quest for understanding! Subhana Allah!

Peace.......


Steve, what I find interesting is....I understood every question. And I was going to say you're asking questions that the muslims cannot answer. They do not know the Christ of the Bible nor do they know the Holy Spirit as evidenced by Yusef's comments. Now, this is in no way ment to be disrespectful to Yusef or any other muslim here....it's just a statement of fact. Much like how I've seen muslims say the non-muslim cannot understand the Qur'an if they do not read arabic. That being said let me address Yusef.


Yusef.....


Could you clarify what you ment by this statement? "This form of worship (circling the Ka'ba during Hajj) is the exact same worship being preformed by the countless number of angels circling the Throne of Allah/God in the Heavens." What I'm not clear on is this: Is circling a form of worship or no? If so can you give an answer more than "it was prescribed" as to why muslims should circle a rock? We understand that muslims feel the place is sacred, but why the rock?


Shamms

[Steve Consilvio]

Peace.......


Steve, what I find interesting is....I understood every question. And I was going to say you're asking questions that the muslims cannot answer. They do not know the Christ of the Bible nor do they know the Holy Spirit as evidenced by Yusef's comments. Now, this is in no way ment to be disrespectful to Yusef or any other muslim here....it's just a statement of fact. Much like how I've seen muslims say the non-muslim cannot understand the Qur'an if they do not read arabic. That being said let me address Yusef.

Well, I think Muslims do know Jesus, and many Christians know Muhammed. They are of the same spirit, as we all are. Sacred texts would not make us different, for a book is just a book, but the Word of God is the Word of God, no matter by whose hand it is written and in whichever tongue. Love and mercy is the universal virtue.


That said, there are many Christians who fear their Muslim and Jewish brothers, and many Muslims who fear their Christian and Jewish brothers. The excuses and reasons are all empty words, for the fear is not God speaking through them but the dark one. The dark one spreads fear, and he tricks the righteous into being unrighteous. For whom else would be better to seduce? Those that live in sin and depravity have already been conquered, thus where goodness gathers the dark one follows.


All men are unique. Some can be seduced with fear, others by their pride, and others by greed. There are three ways that men fall, and fall he does in some combination of these three.


My question is very simple: What makes something "holy"?


Is not the body a temple? What can be holier than the human form? (See Michaelangelo) Yet, men say that one temple is holy and another temple is not, simply because of the ideas in the person's head or their habit of worship. So man himself is not holy, only certain behaviors make him holy? That is preposterous. A child is innocent and can be taught to pray, but that does not make them wise in faith. If a monkey were trained to pray would its soul be given Grace? Of course not.


Thus what is holy has nothing to do with man. Man cannot make something holy, not can he disgrace something holy. He can, however, make himself holy or disgrace himself, as he so chooses. And how does he do this? He does it in how he treats others.


For thousands of years the hypocrites have boasted that they pray to God better than others, in all religions, but how do they treat others? Do they promote Love or War? Respect or Disrespect? Trust or mistrust?


How far do we travel down this road before we question where we are going and where we have been? I see many sins in my mirror. They do not belong to my religion, my clan or tribe or sect, my team or home court. I am an individual in a relationship with God, and the habits and mishabits of tradition are no comfort nor absolution. I cannot push a button and be redeemed, so why should praying in a certain way bring redemption? God is not an ATM machine of pre-programmed sequences. It is man that creates reasons and excuses. Even men who have witnessed miracles have remained stiff-necked.


For how many more thousands of years will we kill each other over "holy" dirt and colored dirt? We dig gold out of the ground only to lock it in a vault. It had no vaue in the ground; it has negative value when we hold it. Are these other things that we hold onto any different?

[AlShamms]

Well, I think Muslims do know Jesus, and many Christians know Muhammed. They are of the same spirit, as we all are. Sacred texts would not make us different, for a book is just a book, but the Word of God is the Word of God, no matter by whose hand it is written and in whichever tongue. Love and mercy is the universal virtue.

Steve, I have to disagree with you here. Christ said in the gospel of John, chapter ten verses four and five:


And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.



And in the same gospel in verse 27 Christ again says:


My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:



Again, no offense to any muslims on this board but they do not know Christ of the Bible, if they did, they would follow him. No, they teach another Jesus, one named Isa.

That said, there are many Christians who fear their Muslim and Jewish brothers, and many Muslims who fear their Christian and Jewish brothers. The excuses and reasons are all empty words, for the fear is not God speaking through them but the dark one. The dark one spreads fear, and he tricks the righteous into being unrighteous. For whom else would be better to seduce? Those that live in sin and depravity have already been conquered, thus where goodness gathers the dark one follows.


All men are unique. Some can be seduced with fear, others by their pride, and others by greed. There are three ways that men fall, and fall he does in some combination of these three.


My question is very simple: What makes something "holy"?


Is not the body a temple? What can be holier than the human form? (See Michaelangelo) Yet, men say that one temple is holy and another temple is not, simply because of the ideas in the person's head or their habit of worship. So man himself is not holy, only certain behaviors make him holy? That is preposterous. A child is innocent and can be taught to pray, but that does not make them wise in faith. If a monkey were trained to pray would its soul be given Grace? Of course not.


Thus what is holy has nothing to do with man. Man cannot make something holy, not can he disgrace something holy. He can, however, make himself holy or disgrace himself, as he so chooses. And how does he do this? He does it in how he treats others.

Steve again I must disagree with you because you depart from scripture. Man cannot, according to scripture make himself holy. He can however because of his sinful nature, disgrace something that is holy. In the book of Moses called Exodus in the third chapter, we read YHVH speak a command unto Moses:


"And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground."



What made the groud holy? Something special about the groud itself? No. The ground was holy because the presence of God was there. Moses in his ignornace did not know to make himself clean by removing his shoes in the presence of God. So God had to show him how to approach His presence. There are other examples of man not being able to make himself clean without the instruction of God. And if I may be so bold....it is this reason why the muslims perform wudu before performing salat. It is (if I am not mistaken) an outward representation of an inward or spiritual state. However the muslim (as with the chrisitan) would still be unclean were it not for the instruction of God.


So to answer your question Steve as to what makes something holy....It is the presence of God that makes a thing or person, holy.


Shamms

[laian]

Steve, you are right. Focusing on an object, whether sacred or not, detracts from one's God consciousness. Everyone answering this thread is talking about "why Mecca." You already know the reasons why Mecca is important to the Muslims. But it seems what you really want to know is, why do we need a specific place at all?


Well, in the beginning of Islam, Muslims faced Mecca when they prayed. Then at one point, God commanded they change their direction towards the city of Jerusalem, for a few reasons: to test those who would rebel, and to make a point (see below). Here is the account from the Qur'an (translation of the meanings by Yusuf Ali):


<b>2:142 The fools among the people will say: "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say: To Allah belong both East and West: He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
</b>


2:143 Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.


2:144 We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens): now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.


2:145 Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong.


Basically, the Jews freaked out because the Muslims were trying to use their sacred city instead of their own. But God said, I made everything. It all belongs to Me, from East to West. It doesn't matter where you face when you pray.


The point of having a specific location to face is for unity of the ummah. Have you ever seen a group of Muslims praying? It can be awe-inspiring, or at least give you a feeling of reverence to see them all moving as one. Unity is strength. In verse 144 above, God acknowledges that people naturally were looking to the heavens, trying to look toward God as they prayed. He gave them a place to look that they could comprehend.


So, here's a summary:


1. Muslims faced Mecca to pray.


2. God commanded them to change and face Jeruslam, to show them the location didn't matter, only the unity. Also to test their faith.


3. God made his point, and made Mecca the permanent Qibla.


---


Allah knows best, may Allah guide us all.

[Muslimah]

Bismillah


salam all


First off, Laian we did miss you much sister, welcome back :)


Seeing you here made me :) hope things are all ok with u, :wavey:


Now to compliment my brother's and sister's replies to you Steve, I sort of managed to extract what you are aiming at. And when i asked satisfactory, I didnt mean are you convinced with our faith. No I meant did you understand the point being made.


Any way, why mecca and why circle? certainly Allah Is everywhere and to Allah Belongs all what is on earth and heavens and what is even between.


However, as part of worshiping Allah, submitting to Allah, as part of the training needed to observe Allah's limits, Allah enjoined that we face Mecca, as explained by Radiyah on the thread I posted and further explained by Laian. Also as part of the training to obey and submit, we are commanded to circle Ka`ba. In many forms, Allah Wills that we obey and train ourselves to do so. Certainly not every one does obey.


But then as Yusuf (welcome to the board Yusuf, sorry for my bad manners, but the topic is really getting hot), commented that you jumped from one point to another. I think really for the benefit of all, if u r really looking for the answers. Let us take the points one by one, just briefly. Insh a Allah Yusuf, Laian and others will be more than happy to respond. Again may Allah Assist you in your path for learning.

[wel_mel_2]

Bismillah:

Again, no offense to any muslims on this board but they do not know Christ of the Bible, if they did, they would follow him. No, they teach another Jesus, one named Isa.

Well, I have to agree with you on this Shamms. Our Christ pbuh and your Jesus are totally different. But there has to be only <b>ONE REAL CHRIST
</b>. And in this case, we are the winners


<b>“So no offense to any of our Christians friends on this board”</b> but I have to say that Muslims are the true followers of the <b>real</b> Christ because they assert him as the Messiah and not <b>“God the Messiah”</b>, the title ‘Christ’ does not mean divine and was not specifically given to <b>Jesus of the Bible</b>, <b>Cyrus</b> the pagan was also called Christ in the same Bible of Christians.


So I have to say that <b>‘Christians do not really know the real Christ’</b> <b>"they teach another person called Jesus</b>".. simply because neither the "J" nor the second "s" in the name Jesus is to be found in the original tongue of Christ, they are not found in the Semitic languages. His name was simply "ESAU" which is very common Jewish name and <b>Eisa</b> in Arabic, that is the real Christ peace and blessing be upon him.


am sorry, that was totally off topic but it was necessary for me to make this correction. Thanks.


Salam


Wael.