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<b>Isaiah 7:14 </b>
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
Isaiah then goes on to write in chapter 9,
<b>1 Nevertheless the gloom will not be upon her who is distressed,</b>
As when at first He lightly esteemed
The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
And afterward more heavily oppressed her,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
In Galilee of the Gentiles.
<i>2 The people who walked in darkness </i>
Have seen a great light;
Those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death,
Upon them a light has shined. 3 You have multiplied the nation
And increased its joy;[a]
They rejoice before You
According to the joy of harvest,
As men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
4 For You have broken the yoke of his burden
And the staff of his shoulder,
The rod of his oppressor,
As in the day of Midian.
5 For every warrior’s sandal from the noisy battle,
And garments rolled in blood,
Will be used for burning and fuel of fire.
<i>6 For unto us a Child is born, </i>
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God
,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will beno end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Jesus is clearly called "Mighty God" in Isaiah.
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Bismillah:
Quote:Jesus is clearly called "Mighty God" in Isaiah.
Firstly, it is important when applying a prophesy to someone to not selectively pick and choose catch phrases from the prophesy and <b>disregard the rest.</b> In this prophesy we find that the very first stipulation presented for this person is that <b>he shall carry the government upon his shoulders</b>. However, as is popular knowledge, Jesus pbuh never in his whole lifetime ever formed a government nor became a head of state. In fact we find him saying in the Bible quite explicitly:
John 18:36 "Jesus answered,<b> My kingdom is not of this world</b>: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
Matthew 22:21 "Then saith he (Jesus) unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."
So according to the Bible, Jesus never tried to establish a government nor to challenge the authority of the pagan emperor Caesar over himself and his followers. Now, if someone were to go the extra mile and to make the case that Jesus commands a "spiritual" government in the hereafter, then we need to know whether the hereafter shall be a place of governments, kings, laws and regulations? !!!!!!!!!!!
Secondly, when we study the words "mighty God" carefully, we notice an interesting fact. For some reason, the words used are not "Almighty God" but rather "mighty God." Naturally, this makes one curious as to what the original Hebrew text actually says. so little research about this matter will tell you that the word for "Almighty" as applied exclusively to God in the OT is the Hebrew word "Shadday" <b>{shad-dah'-ee}. </b> However, this is not the word used in this verse. The actual word used in this verse is the Hebrew word "<b>Gibbowr</b>" meaning "mighty" and not "The Almighty." Now, although to us such a difference might seem subtle and insignificant, still, to the Jews, the difference was quite pronounced.
In the famous Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary by <b>James Strong</b> the word "gibbowr" or short "gibbowr" {ghib-bore'}, is translated as; <b>warrior, tyrant:-champion, chief, excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.</b> On the other hand the word "<b>Shadday</b>" {shad-dah'-ee}, is translated as, <b>the Almighty:-Almighty.</b>
The word translated as "God" here is the Hebrew word "El" {ale} which in addition to it's use to refer to God Almighty in the Bible is also used to refer to <b>mighty men, to demons, to angels, and to ido</b>ls. please note that it was a common practice in the Bible to use the word "<b>god</b>" to convey an air of authority or power. Some of the examples presented were:
"I have said, <b>Ye (the Jews) are gods</b>; and all of you are children of the most High" Psalms 82:6
and "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee <b>a god </b> to Pharaoh" Exodus 7:1
as well as <b>"the god </b> of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not." 2 Corinthians 4:4
When reading such verses we begin to understand the reason why Isaiah 9:6 refers to a "mighty god" and not an "Almighty God." If the author did indeed mean to convey that this person would be the "incarnation" of God Almighty who would come down to earth in the form of a human being in order to walk among us and die on the cross, <b>then why did this author chose to "water down" his statement by only referring to him with the generic term used for humans, demons, idols, and angels, and not the specific term reserved for God Almighty alone?</b>
and lastly, nowhere in the NT where Jesus was called "Immanuel" and nowhere Marry did call him with this name. even if you translate the word to 'God with us".
Salam
Wael.
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07-31-2006, 12:34 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-31-2006, 12:37 AM by Curious Christian.)
I didn't disregard any of the text.
Jesus is a King. His Kingdom is in heaven. The Kingdom of believers is is the government which sits on his shoulders.
He even says, "My Kingdom is not of this world." You are right in that he didn't rule a civil government on earth but nothing which Isaiah said indicated that the government would be an actual civil government.
Remember how Jesus was crucified with the words "King of the Jews" on his cross? This is a clear fulfillment of the prophecy itself "Carry the Government Upon His Shoulders." You also ignore Isaiah as I quoted below saying that his government is from the seed of David and abides forever.
"He Shall Be Called Mighty God." So because it doesn't say, "Almighty God" it doesn't mean God? That is a stretch. There are many instances in the bible where God isn't called "Almighty". I guess in those instances the bible isn't talking about the real God huh? That is where your logic progresses?
If the writer is not writing about Jesus than I guess he was prophesying about somebody else who would be "born of a virgin."
You deny that the Old Testament prophesies about Jesus?
What is Psalm 22 talking about?
1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 “He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”
9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced[c] My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
19 But You, O LORD, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
20 Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
21 Save Me from the lion’s mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!
You have answered Me.
22 I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.
25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.[d]
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’s,
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
30 A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.
Quote:and lastly, nowhere in the NT where Jesus was called "Immanuel" and nowhere Marry did call him with this name. even if you translate the word to 'God with us".
In ancient times names were often given as representations of the hopes and dreams of the parents or even of recognition of divine assistance. Names in the Old Testament had understandable meanings. For example: Abram means "exalted father," but Abraham means "Father of a multitude." Some names could even be translated into complete sentences as in Uzziel (‘God is my strength’ - Ex. 6:18), Adoniram (‘my lord is exalted’ - 1 Kings 4:6), and Ahimelek (‘my [divine] brother is king’ - 1 Sam. 21:1).2
So names are more descriptive in the Hebrew and Greek then they are in English. They often refer to the character, purpose, etc., of the one being named. The closest we come to understanding this is in Native American culture. We are familiar with such names as "Running Bear," or "Pretty Eagle, "or "White Owl" as names. These names meant something and were far more descriptive than "Bob," or "Tom," or "Sue."
When we come to Isaiah 7:14, we encounter a prophecy about the Messiah stating that his name will be Immanuel. Immanuel literally means "God is with us." This is a significant because Jesus is God in flesh:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1,14).
For in Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9).
So, we can see that a prophecy of Jesus being "Immanuel" is dealing with him being God, the word, in flesh. This was fulfilled in the birth of Jesus when the Word, known as the Son, second person of the Trinity, became flesh. We call this the incarnation.
When it came time to name the Lord, an angel the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and told Joseph to call his new son "Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). The word "Jesus" means "Jehovah is salvation." This is appropriate since Jesus is Jehovah, second person of the Trinity, who became flesh and is our salvation.
I could literally spend all day posting Old Testament verses which foretell Christ to a "T".
For example. When Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver we know the money was used to buy a field. Zechariah knew this would happend thousands of years before it happenend.
- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)
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07-31-2006, 01:35 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-31-2006, 01:36 AM by wel_mel_2.)
Bismillah:
Quote:I didn't disregard any of the text.
Jesus is a King. His Kingdom is in heaven. The Kingdom of believers is is the government which sits on his shoulders.
He even says, "My Kingdom is not of this world." You are right in that he didn't rule a civil government on earth but nothing which Isaiah said indicated that the government would be an actual civil government.
Remember how Jesus was crucified with the words "King of the Jews" on his cross? This is a clear fulfillment of the prophecy itself "Carry the Government Upon His Shoulders." You also ignore Isaiah as I quoted below saying that his government is from the seed of David and abides forever.
"He Shall Be Called Mighty God." So because it doesn't say, "Almighty God" it doesn't mean God? That is a stretch. There are many instances in the bible where God isn't called "Almighty". I guess in those instances the bible isn't talking about the real God huh? That is where your logic progresses?
It is not necessary that God should be called <b>Almighty</b>, but by <b>whichever name you may call God</b>, <b>it should only refer to HIM alone and no one else</b>. By calling him mighty, you are opening the door for more than one guess, because this word we may use to call men, idols etc.. it is not specifically used for God Almighty the Creator. This is what you have understand.
Quote:If the writer is not writing about Jesus than I guess he was prophesying about somebody else who would be "born of a virgin."
You deny that the Old Testament prophesies about Jesus?
What is Psalm 22 talking about?
1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 “He trusted<b> in the LORD, let Him rescue Him;</b>
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”
9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced[c] My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
19 But You, O LORD, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
20 Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
21 Save Me from the lion’s mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!
You have answered Me.
22 I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.
25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.[d]
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’s,
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
30 A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.
No I don’t deny that Jesus was prophesied in the OT.
and NO also, all these verses are talking about some man whom we may consider to be Jesus, <b> but there is not a single prophecy clearly states that this person's name is going to be Jesus, and also not a single prophecy mentioned clearly that this person is going to be God.</b>
Quote:In ancient times names were often given as representations of the hopes and dreams of the parents or even of recognition of divine assistance. Names in the Old Testament had understandable meanings. For example: Abram means "exalted father," but Abraham means "Father of a multitude." Some names could even be translated into complete sentences as in Uzziel (‘God is my strength’ - Ex. 6:18), Adoniram (‘my lord is exalted’ - 1 Kings 4:6), and Ahimelek (‘my [divine] brother is king’ - 1 Sam. 21:1).2
So names are more descriptive in the Hebrew and Greek then they are in English. They often refer to the character, purpose, etc., of the one being named. The closest we come to understanding this is in Native American culture. We are familiar with such names as "Running Bear," or "Pretty Eagle, "or "White Owl" as names. These names meant something and were far more descriptive than "Bob," or "Tom," or "Sue."
When we come to Isaiah 7:14, we encounter a prophecy about the Messiah stating that his name will be Immanuel. Immanuel literally means "God is with us." This is a significant because Jesus is God in flesh:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1,14).
For in Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9).
So, we can see that a prophecy of Jesus being "Immanuel" is dealing with him being God, the word, in flesh. This was fulfilled in the birth of Jesus when the Word, known as the Son, second person of the Trinity, became flesh. We call this the incarnation.
When it came time to name the Lord, an angel the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and told Joseph to call his new son "Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). The word "Jesus" means "Jehovah is salvation." This is appropriate since Jesus is Jehovah, second person of the Trinity, who became flesh and is our salvation.
I could literally spend all day posting Old Testament verses which foretell Christ to a "T".
For example. When Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver we know the money was used to buy a field. Zechariah knew this would happend thousands of years before it happenend.
- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)
am sorry, but <b> WHAT??????? </b>
<b> where in the NT where Jesus is called Immanuel? John 1:1 does not say that the Word is GOD WITH US, nor does it say the Word is Immanuel.</b>
The Prophecy clearly says that <b> HE WILL BE CALLED IMMANUEL</b> , means His name will be Immanuel, His mother shall call him Immanuel, <b> but this not to be found anywhere in the NT. Not even Christians of today call Jesus Immanuel. </b>
Why don’t you go and advise your fellow Christians to rename your popular celebration from <b> Christmas to Immanmas</b> instead? Or to baptize your people in the name of the Father, <b> and Immanuel </b> and the Holy Ghost? <b> There should be no problem if this name really refer to Jesus.</b>
Salam
Wael.
Salam
Wael.
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Did Jesus speak these words?
John 14
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? <b>He who has seen Me has seen the Father</b>; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
John 16
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. <b>14 He will glorify Me</b>, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you
<i>(The Holy Spirit will Glorify the Son?)</i>
John 17
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 <b>And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.</b> <i>(Jesus says that he shared the SAME glory as God the Father before the world was created??)</i>
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. <b>10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. </b> 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, <b>that they may be one as We are</b>. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
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Bismillah:
Quote:Did Jesus speak these words?
John 14
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? <b>He who has seen Me has seen the Father</b>; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
John 16
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. <b>14 He will glorify Me</b>, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you
<i>(The Holy Spirit will Glorify the Son?)</i>
John 17
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 <b>And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.</b> <i>(Jesus says that he shared the SAME glory as God the Father before the world was created??)</i>
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. <b>10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. </b> 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, <b>that they may be one as We are</b>. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Oh no, same topic again!! I think you better re read all our previous discussions on this board regarding whether Jesus is God or not, and you will see that I’ve responded to all these verses before.
So I have nothing new to add.
Salam
Wael.
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I know Wel Mel, what you believe about Jesus.
I apologize for dwelling the issue so much. It's just that I've been reading John a lot lately and am blown away by Jesus as John describes Him.
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08-01-2006, 11:56 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2006, 11:59 PM by wel_mel_2.)
Bismillah:
Quote:I know Wel Mel, what you believe about Jesus.
I apologize for dwelling the issue so much. It's just that I've been reading John a lot lately and am blown away by Jesus as John describes Him.
No problem CC, but i hope that you will be more concerned about what Jesus pbuh said about himself, instead of what others said about Jesus.
Salam
Wael.
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Quote:Bismillah:
No problem CC, but i hope that you will be more concerned about what Jesus pbuh said about himself, instead of what others said about Jesus.
Salam
Wael.
Believe it or not, our discussion led me to read the words of Jesus more carefully than I had in the past. During my reading of the Gospels and the reading of his words I am still 100% firm that he is God. Based only on his words if you can understand that.
Anyway, I respect your opinion though. Maybe you should do the same if you haven't before? Carefully read through the Gospel of John...and then after reading the whole Gospel ask yourself whether or not Jesus was just a man or was God.
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Bismillah;
Quote:Believe it or not, our discussion led me to read the words of Jesus more carefully than I had in the past. During my reading of the Gospels and the reading of his words I am still 100% firm that he is God. Based only on his words if you can understand that.
Anyway, I respect your opinion though. Maybe you should do the same if you haven't before? Carefully read through the Gospel of John...and then after reading the whole Gospel ask yourself whether or not Jesus was just a man or was God.
Alhamdulelah, i've red the Bible many times, and am still reading it/them till today. and that's why i've chosen Islam to be my faith.
and i too respect your view on this subject
Salam
Wael.
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